Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[tceight]

Extraction #1 80/20 (and from the remaining 20)...
Extraction #2 16/4 (and from the remaining 4)...
Extraction #3 4/1

Or 99%.

I'd stop after 1 for simplicity, or after 2 for recovery. 3 just makes more work for diminishing return.

I'd be more confident of the partitioning in liquid/liquid systems. Liquid/solid can be unpredictable!

unfortunately,these great numbers depend on equal amounts of liquid. When using only a fraction, the numbers fractionate too.
I wasn't even thinking of the partition as it applied to the solids, kind of just assumed that as a given limitation, and aimed at minimizing the bicarb solution in the tobacco.

sawing on yer neck is going to affect your math ability? Is he taking off the whole head? lol

 

[tceight]

Interesting that tceight left out the neutralisation of the acid step as something to investigate.

And claims no idea of the premise for the slopes saly method although I added quite a few notes on how it is supposed to work.

I didn't leave it out, I didn't think to include it in the first place.... Just thinking of extraction steps to standardize, and specifically steps that I intend to experiment with.
neutralize if you wish. I've noticed no difference in vape quality whether I do or not, so don't bother with it. If you notice otherwise, please share the results.

"........claims no idea"
I claim nothing, I state clearly," I don't have a clue what is supposed to be happening here."
I replied only to let slopes know that I was reading along and wasn't ignoring him, but that I just had nothing useful to offer.
I've read your notes, but not meshing with my understanding of how things work.
I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, and very open minded to possibilities, so I hope it does work, and work well! I certainly won't detract from the experimentation, and better to shut up than to be negative.

 

[kinabaloo]

I didn't leave it out, I didn't think to include it in the first place.... Just thinking of extraction steps to standardize, and specifically steps that I intend to experiment with.
neutralize if you wish. I've noticed no difference in vape quality whether I do or not, so don't bother with it. If you notice otherwise, please share the results.

"........claims no idea"
I claim nothing, I state clearly," I don't have a clue what is supposed to be happening here."
I replied only to let slopes know that I was reading along and wasn't ignoring him, but that I just had nothing useful to offer.
I've read your notes, but not meshing with my understanding of how things work.
I'm wrong about a lot of stuff, and very open minded to possibilities, so I hope it does work, and work well! I certainly won't detract from the experimentation, and better to shut up than to be negative.

Fair enough. Funny comment about the sawing off head

Anyeay, first I heard that you have tried neutralisation. But was it is a way that didn't add stuff to the end-product?

On the removal of remaining citric acid, I think it is important. It might seem of no consequence at first but it has the potential to rot the e-cig (stainless steel and plastics) and decompose to give CO. Compare and contrast with the possibility of a trace of perfume from a baby formula remaining in the end-product (adde specifically to be breathed in). The safety implications of unnecessary additives / impurities seems to be based on whim.

Well, as we've reached a point where there is unlikely to be a concensus on the way forward I have posted the acid-base method as I see it.

Doesn;t make much odds in the end; in a consumer society there will be little interest in any method

 

[DVap]

Interesting that tceight left out the neutralisation of the acid step as something to investigate.

And claims no idea of the premise for the slopes saly method although I added quite a few notes on how it is supposed to work.

Kinda agree that this makes sense to look at. Works on paper, not a bad idea to check out for real.

 

[kinabaloo]

I'm now at stage 8 again and a bit stuck. There is some residue in the bottom of my glass container (when the ice has melted) - but I don't know if it is silt, undissolved salt or what. Freezing/thawing/cooling/heating takes time.

Perhaps nothing separates out when frozen?

The ice crystals are notably clearer than the remaining liquids - which remain brown throughout. Perhaps it is the drained liquid that concentrates?

If anything useful crystalised out, it will be in the solution when you add water to the 'sediment'. Maybe now's the time to filter the solution, add VG and test it.

 

[tceight]

Anyeay, first I heard that you have tried neutralisation. But was it is a way that didn't add stuff to the end-product?

Last August, orginal recipe. Even added a titration method to neutralize using turmeric. I just used carbonate, so yes it added stuff.

The safety implications of unnecessary additives / impurities seems to be based on whim.

whim, severity of risk, ease of reducing risk, cost,... lots of factors.
degradation could be an issue, I've been hypervigilant on cleaning my atties regularly, so haven't seen a buildup of much of anything.

Well, as we've reached a point where there is unlikely to be a concensus on the way forward I have posted the acid-base method as I see it.

why does there need to be a concensus? Variety brings out new ideas.

been looking at salt precipitation techniques... found a couple of 'non kitchen' solvents that support the idea, and also found the solubility of nicotine sulphate to be much lower than hcl. Can't think of an edible source of sulphuric acid though. lol

still unclear as to how the hcl is formed from the salt and vinegar.........spell it out for a dummy?

 

[kinabaloo]

Kinda agree that this makes sense to look at. Works on paper, not a bad idea to check out for real.

You mean the acid and salt approach ?

If so, certainly worth checking out, though it is 'known' as working only for harmal alkaloids, and requires a bit of technical nous to carry out, not something can blindly follow and get something (like the acid-base approach).

The whole issue - extracting efficiently what we want, and leaving out what we dont want - is not a simple matter.

It has been an interesting experience to learn some chemistry and debate with some smart people, but in the end I just hope the stuff is available - both in e-liquids (especially) and other 'NRT' forms too. It's perfect sense.

 

[kinabaloo]

Last August, orginal recipe. Even added a titration method to neutralize using turmeric. I just used carbonate, so yes it added stuff.

whim, severity of risk, ease of reducing risk, cost,... lots of factors.
degradation could be an issue, I've been hypervigilant on cleaning my atties regularly, so haven't seen a buildup of much of anything.

why does there need to be a concensus? Variety brings out new ideas.

been looking at salt precipitation techniques... found a couple of 'non kitchen' solvents that support the idea, and also found the solubility of nicotine sulphate to be much lower than hcl. Can't think of an edible source of sulphuric acid though. lol

still unclear as to how the hcl is formed from the salt and vinegar.........spell it out for a dummy?

As I see it, it is a matter of chance that it could occur here and there on the odd occasion and when does in a chilled environment, precipitates, causing the equilibrium to change. A bit like the primordial soup if you like, that created life.

Maybe drop in a crytal to get the ball rolling ...

 

[tceight]

The ice crystals are notably clearer than the remaining liquids - which remain brown throughout. Perhaps it is the drained liquid that concentrates?

This is one thing I can comment on regarding this. If the ice crystals are clear, then they are pure water, so by the same token, the remaining fluid is more concentrated.

 

[tescela]

End of thread.

Closed through lack of interest.

Countless eyeballs read this and were momentarily puzzled.

Seeing the relatively obscure term "nootropic" pop up in this thread has got my attention, and triggers a twinge of concern.

Perhaps tceight's comments should be interpreted as follows: we are not recommending that you try adding specific substances to your eliquid. If, however, you choose to do so, then please share the details of your experience.

while there was certainly a tongue planted firmly in cheek when I wrote this, my views on such things have been posted when we last discussed this approach.

We need a "tongue-in-cheek" icon.

In all seriousness, a 'designer vape' does sound like a perfect interim step the path of entelechy, the final place being needing/wanting nothing at all.

Now, you're just showing off <-- that is a tongue outside of cheek (and mouth) icon

Let me be more precise, "if you have the means and wherewithal to do it." means a few hundred million, a lab, and a decade.
"Save yourself some time, and do a search on here to see what has already been attempted. Then be sure to let us know how things work out with that approach"
Selegaline, neuroprotective,nootropic are all good keywords to start searching for past discussions.
maybe not nootropic, I don't believe if i've read much on here about that. Probably another forum.

I don't believe it's that esoteric a word.

I agree with you, and I don't have it in me right now to take an opposing position for the sake of intellectual discussion, so I'm just going to stop typing.

 

[kinabaloo]

Perhaps concensus was the wrong term, but needs to be some interaction and openness to others' ideas else we are just doing our own thing in a cacaphony of noise.

I feel I've done what I can and want to move on. I might check back in a couple of years on the remote chance anything has moved a jot.

 

[kinabaloo]

Final thought for those in the 'something missing' camp - there i something(s) missings, for you, and me, but i say to you this - that if this is you, taking nicotine only will make the situation worse; it will create the craving for the soething missing moreso. So 'smoke' with just VG and maybe a flavoring; forget the nic. Firget all about a 'lack', for that is the catch. Don't think you are missing something - think you are gaining a life free from a treacherous, leech-like, vomit that that is taking away your life and its precious time. You are better than that, And that VG vapor and relaxing moment is better than some chemical buzz; its the time-out and me -time, and think-time that's most important. Forget the magic beans - they raen't really worth, well, a bean

Get out, shape up but dont compare yourselves with others; just be a better you and take pride in that, and that alone. Don't depend on others but have compassin for all are just like you, and find peace in the non-striving oment and joy that is the wonder of nature and time and our journey, both as you and me, and of humanity. Be hunble under the stars and bold enough to be you; not a ego trip mirage but an authentic but flawed individual sharing the jorney ...

You can't really iceskate, say, while holding that var arond the edge of the rink; and only by letting it go can you progress and realise you don;t need it; that in fact it was holding you back,,, for sucha long tme ...

Don't regret, dont look back, go for it - there is a real life out there, waiting to be lived ...

If you want a cig, have a cig, Want a ape have a vape. Get beyong the lack and the need, because you cant, because ts bad, because so snd so said you cant - all that is what creates the need.

In truthe the chemical addiction wore after a week or so. The rest is just psychological. Yes it really s that strong. And to be free 'just' needs a different mind-set

Woul you drink wine all day, r ea choclate fudge cake ever 45 minutes? Smkes come in a 20 pack all day solution and conditon you t feel that need.

Give up the caffeine shots too, that will help. And learn to chill out; learn to say 'no' and 'later, i'm not busting my ... for this'

And while all that makes perfect sense but cant qite do it right now, try the snus/snuff or wta extraction, ot digg a flavoured vape. And dont fet if you have a cig or two - enjoy what you do and dont dont do the others.

Step bt step, stronger and in control; it's a lease not a driver of my life ...

@@@

omg, even i can barely underand the above !

~~~
if there was a WTA liquidm t elinates mst of the health risk right there, so it would be a very fine thing indeed, Ans a path, id= so desired to wean off; but th ekey is that you've greatly reduced hazaedous risk. Can omly jope it is here soon ...

 

[kinabaloo]

Now eben i have have enogh of me, so good on yo team, may you come up with great stuff !

Have amountain of other stuff to climb ....

 

[tescela]

I feel I've done what I can and want to move on. I might check back in a couple of years on the remote chance anything has moved a jot.

??? There is so much more to do, and there are countless people counting on this team to do it, kinabaloo.

Maybe I missed it, but I've yet to even see detailed instructions assembled in one place for the latest versions of the three or four different procedures for making homemade WTA eliquid.

Participation is the prerogative of each individual, and taking a break to recharge is certainly understandable, but don't kid yourself that you've done all you can. This is a long-term process and we all have much more to contribute.

 

[tceight]

Perhaps concensus was the wrong term, but needs to be some interaction and openness to others' ideas else we are just doing our own thing in a cacaphony of noise.

I feel I've done what I can and want to move on. I might check back in a couple of years on the remote chance anything has moved a jot.

heh heh... you said Caca.
not sure I understand. Isn't random interjection with lack of cohesion to the discussion by definition cacophony? added volume of posts does not necessarily mean progress, and lack of posting may just mean people are doing stuff that will add progress to the thread.
people that are posting here are doing so for their own enjoyment and/or sense of purpose. If it's not enjoyable they most certainly won't. I take it that by 'moving on', you no longer enjoy being here?

 

[tceight]

........................ and taking a break to recharge is certainly understandable,....................

lol, this is what I do TO recharge.

 

[tceight]

just doing some tests, and crunching some numbers for "step one" of my self imposed experiment strategy.

1g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 11.4
5g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 11.6
10g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 11.7
78g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 12.3 (saturated solution)
assume 20 g of tobacco at a moisture content of at average 20%, that's only an extra 0.004 liters of dilution.

conclusion, you don't need much carbonate solution at all, and in fact one would be hard pressed to make a a mixture that did not have enough.
a few drops of solution per gram of tobacco, to a maximum of 1ml (30 drops) per gram should be sufficient in any case, and it's unlikely to find any increases in efficiency by tweaking this.

 

[kinabaloo]

just doing some tests, and crunching some numbers for "step one" of my self imposed experiment strategy.

1g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 11.4
5g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 11.6
10g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 11.7
78g of sodium carbonate in 1.0 liter pH 12.3 (saturated solution)
assume 20 g of tobacco at a moisture content of at average 20%, that's only an extra 0.004 liters of dilution.

conclusion, you don't need much carbonate solution at all, and in fact one would be hard pressed to make a a mixture that did not have enough.
a few drops of solution per gram of tobacco, to a maximum of 1ml (30 drops) per gram should be sufficient in any case, and it's unlikely to find any increases in efficiency by tweaking this.

The figures are interesting. One doesn't need a high concentration. I think it was you who mentioned a pH of 11 as necessary some time ago. DVap I think refers to a pH of 9.

One must take into account water content in the tobacco.
And that it will be neutralised to some extent by the tobacco.

I think there is a potential issue with trying to use too little liquid - if it doesn't reach all the tobacco. I am happy with 'all wet but without free-flowing extra liquid' as the right amount. Less than this will likely reduce yield. We might have to disagree on this.

 

[tceight]

The figures are interesting. One doesn't need a high concentration. I think it was you who mentioned a pH of 11 as necessary some time ago. DVap I think refers to a pH of 9.

I've always aimed for 11, something I read somewhere at some point.
9 is 'enough' and 10 is lot's according to the experts. more to the point, that very little is needed.

One must take into account water content in the tobacco.
And that it will be neutralised to some extent by the tobacco.

I did. You must have missed this in the middle of the post.
"assume 20 g of tobacco at a moisture content of at average 20%, that's only an extra 0.004 liters of dilution."
i failed to factor in the potential acidity of the tobacco. so lets add another milligram to be sure. ;-)

......................... Less than this will likely reduce yield. We might have to disagree on this.

ok, feel free to disagree, but based on what reasoning? even if it's only 50% moisture, that's half the entire mass as water.

my reasoning to reduce it, is to minimize the water to maximise the transfer at a 'poor' partition coefficient of 4:1, thereby increasing yield.

if you use 40 ml of water and 40 ml of oil, then the most you will get is 75% transfer.
if you use 20 ml of water and 40ml of oil, then your potential increases to 88%
if you use 10 ml of water, and 40ml of oil, then it increases again to 94%

to me, this is a pretty fundamental thing to disagree on.

 

[kinabaloo]

I've always aimed for 11, something I read somewhere at some point.

I did. You must have missed this in the middle of the post.
"assume 20 g of tobacco at a moisture content of at average 20%, that's only an extra 0.004 liters of dilution."


ok, feel free to disagree, but based on what reasoning? even if it's only 50% moisture, that's half the entire mass as water.
the reasoning to reduce it, is to minimize the water to maximise the transfer at a 'poor' partition coefficient of 4:1, thereby increasing yield.
if you use 40 ml of water and 40 ml of oil, then the most you will get is 75% transfer.
if you use 20 ml of water and 40ml of oil, then your potential increases to 88%
if you use 10 ml of water, and 40ml of oil, then it increases again to 94%

4ml of water in 20g tobacco is not insignificant! No use hiding the fact by expressing it in litres

You address the wrong point. I have banged on about using a low water to oil ratio for ages. My point is that there is no point in going too far in reducing the water volume as the carbonate will not reach all the tobacco. This is clear for most people I think.

~~~

There is NO disagreement about carbonate solution to oil ratio; that is NOT what I said!