Beta Carboline MAOIs - towards a more effective e-liquid

[kinabaloo]

If the thinking is correct that the partition for alkaloid salts is far greater - a reasonable assumption - then we don't need to fret too much about the volume of carbonate and say 3-4x as much oil, because we can go with a small volume of acidified water. Or even simmer it down in volume if neccesary.

 

[tceight]

4ml of water in 20g tobacco is not insignificant! No use hiding the fact by expressing it in litres

not hiding anything. using the same units as above for clarity.
let me be more clear........
using the numbers above, you can dilute the saturated solution 78 times! and still be above 11 pH.
4ml in 10 is only 0.4 times, so yes it IS insignificant.

You address the wrong point. I have banged on about using a low water to oil ratio for ages. My point is that there is no point in going too far in reducing the water volume as the carbonate will not reach all the tobacco. This is clear for most people I think.

I'm addressing the point I made, regarding yield, that you disagreed with.
in your oil extraction, you had measureable amounts of water....that is not minimal by any stretch.
the carbonate does not have to reach everywhere, only the -OH ions, and they will be 'everywhere' in short order.

"clear for most people"..... cmon now Kin, argumentum ad populum? public opinion only matters in politics, not science.

 

[kardenm]

End of thread.

Closed through lack of interest.

Don't stay away, we need you (and all you others).

No lack of interest here. I read all posts carefully and expect to make some great WTA soon.

I have mountains of stuff to climb also and this is one of them.

 

[kinabaloo]

not hiding anything. using the same units as above for clarity.
let me be more clear........
using the numbers above, you can dilute the saturated solution 78 times! and still be above 11 pH.
4ml in 10 is only 0.4 times, so yes it IS insignificant.


I'm addressing the point I made, regarding yield, that you disagreed with.
in your oil extraction, you had measureable amounts of water....that is not minimal by any stretch.
the carbonate does not have to reach everywhere, only the -OH ions, and they will be 'everywhere' in short order.

"clear for most people"..... cmon now Kin, argumentum ad populum? public opinion only matters in politics, not science.

Of course the water content doesn't much matter to the pH, but it does matter to the total water volume ! That is, it matters to the water - oil ratio.

I changed the method wording to make it super clear - that one doesnt add all the carbonate solution that one makes, but adds it a little at a time until the tobacco is wet, and no more.

I said to make 20ml for 40g tobacco in case someone just added it all; it wouldn't be such a disaster

The -OH ions will not reach parts that are not wet.

 

[tceight]

Of course the water content doesn't much matter to the pH, but it does matter to the total water volume ! That is, it matters to the water - oil ratio.

that is once again, the point. minimize water volume.
so what the heck were you arguing about?

The -OH ions will not reach parts that are not wet.

and it's also the point to THIS.
Problem here is defining 'wet'.
in my OPINION, 50% of the total mass being water, is soaking wet.
That would be adding at most, 10 ml to 20 grams of perfectly 'dry' tobacco. at this level, it barely even registers as moist.

that's as clear as I can make my point, short of doing an actual experiment.

I'll moisten a gram of tobacco at this level, or lower. Then take that tobacco and measure the pH after 20 min, and see what I get.

 

[kinabaloo]

that is once again, the point. minimize water volume.


and the point to THIS point.
Problem here is defining 'wet'.
in my OPINION, 50% of the total mass being water, is soaking wet.
That would be adding maybe at most, 10 ml to 20 grams of perfectly 'dry' tobacco. at this level, it barely even registers as moist.

that's as clear as I can make my point, short of doing an actual experiment.

I'll moisten a gram of tobacco at this level, or lower. Then take that tobacco and measure the pH after 20 min, and see what I get.

It is the yield that will be different. I don't see the point of measuring the pH.

The tobacco has a superstructure and unless it is liquidised in a blender then the carbonate solution must be sufficient in volume to reach all parts of the tobacco for a good yield.

 

[tceight]

It is the yield that will be different. I don't see the point of measuring the pH.

The tobacco has a superstructure and unless it is liquidised in a blender then the carbonate solution must be sufficient in volume to reach all parts of the tobacco for a good yield.

:-S I was arguing the point that the -OH would be throughout,
"The -OH ions will not reach parts that are not wet."
not the yield!
which is obviously 'better' with LESS water, which has been the point all along.
You are saying 'enough to make it wet', and I'm saying that is far too much.

I give up.
good night.

 

[kinabaloo]

I dont think it will distibute as well as you think.

Why you persist in misrepresenting what I said?!

There is simply a point at which less is good no longer applies. There is a limit.

~~~

I don't get the bad feeling. Thanks for the figures anyway. Wish I hadn't commented.

For example, when I said about water content, was just noting a factor for readers, never said you missed it.

 

[DVap]

4ml of water in 20g tobacco is not insignificant! No use hiding the fact by expressing it in litres

You address the wrong point. I have banged on about using a low water to oil ratio for ages. My point is that there is no point in going too far in reducing the water volume as the carbonate will not reach all the tobacco. This is clear for most people I think.

~~~

There is NO disagreement about carbonate solution to oil ratio; that is NOT what I said!

One could simply add the carbonate in a bit of an excess of water, and then spread the tobacco out overnight to allow some evaporation. A pretty cheap digital scale with 1 gram resolution would verify the water loss. Short of determining how much water needs to be used to guarantee the available alkaloids are deprotonated, I'd err on the side of too much water, and do something like I suggested above.

 

[kinabaloo]

One could simply add the carbonate in a bit of an excess of water, and then spread the tobacco out overnight to allow some evaporation. A pretty cheap digital scale with 1 gram resolution would verify the water loss. Short of determining how much water needs to be used to guarantee the available alkaloids are deprotonated, I'd err on the side of too much water, and do something like I suggested above.

An interesting idea.

In the extraction paper tceight referred to a little while back, they achieved a good extraction efficiency without hardly touching the leaf as they wanted it to still be usable in some cheap cigs! So perhaps I worry too much about whether the -OH ions can migrate through the tobacco.

 

[DVap]

Here is an exercise that's worth doing as it illustrates a basic principle:

Take a sponge and saturate it with water. Wring out maybe half the water. Drip a few mL of household ammonia (maybe 2.5 - 3% ammonia) onto one end of the sponge and seal it in an airtight jar. After awhile the water in the sponge will be uniformly basic. The OH- will migrate through the water in the sponge because it's seeking equilibrium. The migration will stop when there's no part of the sponge with a lower OH- concentration in the water than any other part of the sponge.

The sponge is a red herring, the water in the sponge and anything dissolved in it is a solution. Equilibrium will happen... quickly in a beaker with no rate limiting matrix, more slowly with the solution soaked into in a solid matrix that reduces mobility, but equilibrium will happen. The trick is giving it enough time.

 

[kinabaloo]

Here is an exercise that's worth doing as it illustrates a basic principle:

Take a sponge and saturate it with water. Wring out maybe half the water. Drip a few mL of household ammonia (maybe 2.5 - 3% ammonia) onto one end of the sponge and seal it in an airtight jar. After awhile the water in the sponge will be uniformly basic. The OH- will migrate through the water in the sponge because it's seeking equilibrium. The migration will stop when there's no part of the sponge with a lower OH- concentration in the water than any other part of the sponge.

The sponge is a red herring, the water in the sponge and anything dissolved in it is a solution. Equilibrium will happen... quickly in a beaker with no rate limiting matrix, more slowly with the solution soaked into in a solid matrix that reduces mobility, but equilibrium will happen. The trick is giving it enough time.

I undestand the drive to equibrium, but tobacco has touch cellulose superstructure; wheeas a sponge is actually comlpletely open, just a bit of a maze.

~~~

A tobacco plant doesn't lose all it's alkaloids when it rains (afaik).

 

[slopes]

A tobacco plant doesn't lose all it's alkaloids when it rains (afaik).

I suppose it depends if it's acid rain or not

 

[DVap]

Take a green leaf from a tree and wet it. You can shake the water off or easily rub the leaf dry with a paper towel.

A live leaf possess a high cellular integrity along with a limited external surface area and thus will "shake the water off".

Do the same with a dried up brown leaf. It will soak up some water, Crush a dried brown leaf, it will soak up even more water.

Tobacco processing takes a toll on cellular integrity and pulverizing moreso. The trick is to compromise cellular integrity as much as possible.

An intact plant cell wall acts as a semi-permeable membrane that should be able to pass or exclude materials (see osmotic pressure). Probably easier to get solution in than get it back out.

I know that my extraction gives 12 mg/g from NAS tobacco via a minute or so of chopping in a small food processor, so there are considerable alkaloids available. Perhaps a more aggressive/finer purverization would increase the availability and thus the yield. Certainly an extraction involving strong cavitation would do alot to optimize yield.

 

[kinabaloo]

Take a green leaf from a tree and wet it. You can shake the water off or easily rub the leaf dry with a paper towel.

A live leaf possess a high cellular integrity along with a limited external surface area and thus will "shake the water off".

Do the same with a dried up brown leaf. It will soak up some water, Crush a dried brown leaf, it will soak up even more water.

Tobacco processing takes a toll on cellular integrity and pulverizing moreso. The trick is to compromise cellular integrity as much as possible.

An intact plant cell wall acts as a semi-permeable membrane that should be able to pass or exclude materials (see osmotic pressure). Probably easier to get solution in than get it back out.

I know that my extraction gives 12 mg/g from NAS tobacco via a minute or so of chopping in a small food processor, so there are considerable alkaloids available. Perhaps a more aggressive/finer purverization would increase the availability and thus the yield. Certainly an extraction involving strong cavitation would do alot to optimize yield.

But did you see the study mentioned by tceight where they achieved a good yield (water extraction) without any mechanical manipulation of cutting of the leaf.

I should go back and check how long they left the soak.

 

[kinabaloo]

deleted ...

 

[kardenm]

i suppose it depends if it's acid rain or not :d

lol !!.......

 

[DVap]

But did you see the study mentioned by tceight where they achieved a good yield (water extraction) without any mechanical manipulation of cutting of the leaf.

I should go back and check how long they left the soak.

Missed it. Conventional wisdom says pulverize and compromise the cells. Heck, if it is as easy as extracting whole leaf, that's a good thing.

 

[kinabaloo]

Missed it. Conventional wisdom says pulverize and compromise the cells. Heck, if it is as easy as extracting whole leaf, that's a good thing.

http://tobaccodocuments.org/lor/00120283-0323.html

Second half on wate extraction. Seems the purpose by the tobacco company doing this all those years ago was to produce a 'light' cig. Kind of the opposite of we are trying to do!

But look how well the leaf was preserved.

I guess the drying ad maybe curing already done much of the job.

 

[kinabaloo]

Remove all the good stuff, leave all the crap and sell it as the healthy option !