Exactly.
Energy here is now focused more directly on getting healthy, so I may be more or less "at a distance" for awhile. If I don't get around the threads for awhile, I do check PM's daily.
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Exactly.
Energy here is now focused more directly on getting healthy, so I may be more or less "at a distance" for awhile. If I don't get around the threads for awhile, I do check PM's daily.
So a variation on the method, first stage, would be to soak the tobacco in carbonate solution; not a huge amount but an amount to provide a fair deal of free flowing liquid (the idea being to waste as little as possible that remains in the tobacco). Squeeze out. Filter. Let settle for a day to remove any fine solids still left. Simmer down to a suitable volume. Add 5x volume of oil. Shake well, leave for 1/2 hour and repeat a number of times (and maybe leave for a day then repeat). At the acidified water stage, use 1/5 less water than oil. Neutralise. Filter. Add 4x as much VG.
I like that approach in general. Easier to remove solids (filter/squeeze).
Or: Extract/soak in acidic water (vinegar or citric acid). Aren't the alkaloids more water soluble in their salt forms? Then remove fine solids, neutralize/basify, and/or evaporate some water?? Would this get more of the alkaloids or will the carbonate solution get enough of them?
Has anyone determined a guesstimate of harmaline content per cig? I found a harmaline tincture containing 75mg hamaline per dropper full and am looking for a guess as to how much I should experiment with. Until, at least, a WTA solution becomes commercially available.
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The figures you need are in the forum, somewhere. Top of my head, so check them :
harmala alkaloids ~0.01% of tobacco, so a 1g cigarette contains ~0.1mg
1ml (~20 drops / 1g) of e-liquid is equivalent to about 20 cigs, so ~2mg in 1 ml of e-liquid
If a dropper is 5ml (you need to check that) then that is 75/5 mg per ml (15mg / ml / 20 drops)
So 1 to 2 drops per ml e-liquid as a ballpark figure.
I don't condone the idea and strongly suggest reading up on the side-effects etc. Just hope you don't overdo it, hence some figures.
The effect of WTA comes from a wide range of alkaloids and their interactions.
The conversion to freebase form by the carbonate is close to 100%. A ~4x more oil than carbonate solution will yield >90% of the alkaloids.
In contrast, an acidified water extraction will yield (dissolve) much more than just alkaloids, whch is why it is a much less good approach.
I'm still burning through this pound of tobacco, taking careful measurement's and quantifying each of my steps along the way, making one change at a time. (eliminating Easter egging as DVAP put it)
One I have a consistent, quantitative end result that people can repeat as written "safely" and end up with a product of known strength and purity that they can be confident in..... no guessing or speculation...I will post the results.
I'd post what I'm doing along the way, but the time spent posting and discussing (and re-discussing) here is time away from actually doing the work.
One I have a consistent, quantitative end result that people can repeat as written "safely" and end up with a product of known strength and purity that they can be confident in..... no guessing or speculation...I will post the results.
I'd post what I'm doing along the way, but the time spent posting and discussing (and re-discussing) here is time away from actually doing the work.
I have taken one new sideline 'experiment' with the initial tobacco preparation that I hope will dramatically increase the extraction efficiency of the alkaloids from the tobacco matrix.
zyxel-nsa210.lilu2.ch/MyWeb/public/.../Q10%20in%20solanesol.pdf
discusses the Microwave-assisted extraction of solanesol from tobacco leaves.... the electron photographs show cell wall degradation from moderate amounts of microwave radiation.
by the mechanism of action, we should be able to achieve the same results without using a microwave.
Basic premise, would be to
1. add sufficient basic solution to cause sufficient cellular turgidity.
2. pre-heat the mineral oil to slightly greater than 100C.
3. slowly add the tobacco to the oil, and the oil would flash boil the water in the tobacco
This would cause cell wall rupturing, and expel the cell products with enough energy to escape the tobacco matrix, and dissolve into the oil.
4. The excess water would be boiled off, maximizing the partition co-efficient.
* limitation would be that the excess carbonate would have to be carefully filtered to prevent it from neurtalizing the acidic water step.
zyxel-nsa210.lilu2.ch/MyWeb/public/.../Q10%20in%20solanesol.pdf
discusses the Microwave-assisted extraction of solanesol from tobacco leaves.... the electron photographs show cell wall degradation from moderate amounts of microwave radiation.
by the mechanism of action, we should be able to achieve the same results without using a microwave.
Basic premise, would be to
1. add sufficient basic solution to cause sufficient cellular turgidity.
2. pre-heat the mineral oil to slightly greater than 100C.
3. slowly add the tobacco to the oil, and the oil would flash boil the water in the tobacco
This would cause cell wall rupturing, and expel the cell products with enough energy to escape the tobacco matrix, and dissolve into the oil.
4. The excess water would be boiled off, maximizing the partition co-efficient.
* limitation would be that the excess carbonate would have to be carefully filtered to prevent it from neurtalizing the acidic water step.
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tc, have you considered ultrasonic extraction? I'm sure the little ultrasonic bath jewelry cleaners don't deliver the same power that the ultrasonic bath I have in my lab does; but I have used the lab ultrasonic bath to extract samples in the lab. Just a thought.
yes, it's a common method in labs TomCatt, as you know.
DVAP suggested it just a few pages back. post# 542
"Perhaps the ultrasonic batch would have some advantage but to get the really powerful cavitation and shearing forces going, it takes a high power lab unit that immerses into the solvent/tobacco mix and raises hell."
Not so common in Kitchens, and that's what I am attempting to achieve. Repeatability by anyone, with commonly available inexpensive ingredients and equipment.
Maybe my self imposed restrictions are too restrictive for this thread.
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Good to hear you are still on the case, tceight. 
I have had mixed results with WTA. It is effective at times but my batches are inconsistent and often the taste of end result is off putting. It also generally has a low throat hit and vapour production. The stuff I make clogs up my atties after a while too. Because of all these factors, I mostly still vape the standard commercial juices.
It would be great to be able to make a more consistent and more concentrated WTA juice that can then be mixed in a lower ratio with a flavoured commercial juice. Its sounds like your new method might achieve this.
I have had mixed results with WTA. It is effective at times but my batches are inconsistent and often the taste of end result is off putting. It also generally has a low throat hit and vapour production. The stuff I make clogs up my atties after a while too. Because of all these factors, I mostly still vape the standard commercial juices.It would be great to be able to make a more consistent and more concentrated WTA juice that can then be mixed in a lower ratio with a flavoured commercial juice. Its sounds like your new method might achieve this.
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I think your self imposed restrictions are highly relevant.
We know WTA is important. We know it can be done. Now we wish we could have it. Since no commercial effort seems to be happening, finding safe methods for kitchen production is our best current hope.
We're all counting on you, tceight. Keep stirring the stuff in the cauldrons. Your self imposed restrictions are essential for people like me whose eyes glaze over when chemistry is discussed. Thanks for your persistence and integrity.
I have just made another batch of WTA liquid, using an adaptation of this method. Done well - and with patience - it certainly works and provides a juice that reaches parts other juices can't (with apologies to Carlsberg).
Firstly I invested in a very cheap booklet of Ph level papers. This has been a huge help in getting the various stages right.
PREPARE
1) I boiled up 25g of ground rolling tobacco in about 250ml of water and 2 teaspoons of sodium carbonate. After 10 minutes simmering, I cooled the mix and filtered it through some cotton cloth. This was easy as the mix was creamy in consistency.
2) I returned the filtered liquid to the pan and reduced it further... till it began to stiffen. I diluted this a bit with fresh water and - using a Ph paper - made sure it tested blue (alkaline) before pouring the mix (about 25ml) in a glass jar.
SEPARATE
3) To the water solution I added a similar amount of olive oil. I shook it and let separate three times over an 8 hour period.
3) I syringed off the oil into a clean bottle and added more oil to the old water solution - shaking and separating it twice over an hour. I then syringed off this oil adding it to the first lot. I discarded the water solution.
4) I took some fresh (ie distilled) water mixed with a few drops of white vinegar to about 20ml and tested to ensure its acidity (paper turns red). I then added this to the oil and shook.
5) After several shakings over 3 hours, I drew off the water solution with the syringe. I placed 10ml more of the water/vinegar solution into the old oil and repeated the process - adding the (now, lighter-coloured) water to the first amount. I discarded the old oil.
6) I then tested the water solution with a Ph paper and it showed a reduced acidity. I added a couple of small pinches of sodium carbonate to the water until it tested blue (alkaline) before mixing in with an equal amount of fresh olive oil and repeated the shaking/settling routine over a few hours. I drew off the oil into a clean bottle. I placed about 10ml of fresh oil into the old water solution and repeated the shake/separate routine several times before drawing off this oil and adding it to the first amount. I discarded the old water solution.
7) I repeated steps 4 to 5. I ended up with about 12 ml of light, strawberry blonde water solution. It wasn't crystal clear... but not far off!
REDUCE
8) I tested the solution with a Ph paper and added a few grains of sodium carbonate to equalise it. I placed the solution into a small stainless steel pot (a tiny milk jug) and reduced it down over a flame to about 3 - 4ml. By this stage I was wearing rubber gloves! I bottled this.
I added about four drops to about 7ml of 24mg commercial juice and vaped. I can feel it works very well. The effect is completely different to the commercial juice alone.
This may sound complicated, but it's not. I'm trying to work out a simple way of remembering the routines - like a short rhyme or something.
Firstly I invested in a very cheap booklet of Ph level papers. This has been a huge help in getting the various stages right.
PREPARE
1) I boiled up 25g of ground rolling tobacco in about 250ml of water and 2 teaspoons of sodium carbonate. After 10 minutes simmering, I cooled the mix and filtered it through some cotton cloth. This was easy as the mix was creamy in consistency.
2) I returned the filtered liquid to the pan and reduced it further... till it began to stiffen. I diluted this a bit with fresh water and - using a Ph paper - made sure it tested blue (alkaline) before pouring the mix (about 25ml) in a glass jar.
SEPARATE
3) To the water solution I added a similar amount of olive oil. I shook it and let separate three times over an 8 hour period.
3) I syringed off the oil into a clean bottle and added more oil to the old water solution - shaking and separating it twice over an hour. I then syringed off this oil adding it to the first lot. I discarded the water solution.
4) I took some fresh (ie distilled) water mixed with a few drops of white vinegar to about 20ml and tested to ensure its acidity (paper turns red). I then added this to the oil and shook.
5) After several shakings over 3 hours, I drew off the water solution with the syringe. I placed 10ml more of the water/vinegar solution into the old oil and repeated the process - adding the (now, lighter-coloured) water to the first amount. I discarded the old oil.
6) I then tested the water solution with a Ph paper and it showed a reduced acidity. I added a couple of small pinches of sodium carbonate to the water until it tested blue (alkaline) before mixing in with an equal amount of fresh olive oil and repeated the shaking/settling routine over a few hours. I drew off the oil into a clean bottle. I placed about 10ml of fresh oil into the old water solution and repeated the shake/separate routine several times before drawing off this oil and adding it to the first amount. I discarded the old water solution.
7) I repeated steps 4 to 5. I ended up with about 12 ml of light, strawberry blonde water solution. It wasn't crystal clear... but not far off!
REDUCE
8) I tested the solution with a Ph paper and added a few grains of sodium carbonate to equalise it. I placed the solution into a small stainless steel pot (a tiny milk jug) and reduced it down over a flame to about 3 - 4ml. By this stage I was wearing rubber gloves! I bottled this.
I added about four drops to about 7ml of 24mg commercial juice and vaped. I can feel it works very well. The effect is completely different to the commercial juice alone.
This may sound complicated, but it's not. I'm trying to work out a simple way of remembering the routines - like a short rhyme or something.
It really isn't that complicated or dangerous. Using oils instead of solvents is what has made it kitchen friendly. I'm sure that after a dozen batches or so it becomes routine but for those with teflon brains printing the procedure on an index card is not cheating.
congrats on your success slopes, and kudo's on the vinegar. I've had 'some' success using it, but for whatever reason the batches are very inconsistent. When I further extract with lab grade stuff, there is much left in the product unaccounted for.
I think it's to do with left over base in the oil (micro droplets) that need neutralizing before any acid extraction can take place. I've a couple ideas I'm playing with to eliminate this variable.
Litmus is a good idea, the more 'lab' stuff you get, the easier it is to see what's going on without guessing. Of course the problem is that I now have so much 'stuff' that I don't improvise as much with kitchen equipment... which I will have to do to make it readily available and easily achievable.
interesting note... I've made some incredibly 'pure' stuff... and even when cut down to 24mg/ml, it has a throat kick like hotsauce and wasabi...but... for some reason it's less satisfying than many of the quick and dirty far less pure batches I've made. I'm wondering now if the alkaloids are the whole answer. There are hundreds of other active molecules in there too, that are not alkaloids.
Bagazo,
friendly solvents are part of what makes it kitchen friendly... the other aspect is just how difficult it is to get a strong concentration using these primitive techniques.
on the 'dangers of nicotine' front, I came across an article in a Oct 1958 Popular Mechanics magazine. (google books)
where they tranquilize deer with nicotine darts, at 300mg doses! That's intramuscular injection, and the deer recover within the hour. As mammalian biology isn't that much different, methinks the dangers may be somewhat overstated. But then, who would lie about nicotine?
I think it's to do with left over base in the oil (micro droplets) that need neutralizing before any acid extraction can take place. I've a couple ideas I'm playing with to eliminate this variable.
Litmus is a good idea, the more 'lab' stuff you get, the easier it is to see what's going on without guessing. Of course the problem is that I now have so much 'stuff' that I don't improvise as much with kitchen equipment... which I will have to do to make it readily available and easily achievable.
interesting note... I've made some incredibly 'pure' stuff... and even when cut down to 24mg/ml, it has a throat kick like hotsauce and wasabi...but... for some reason it's less satisfying than many of the quick and dirty far less pure batches I've made. I'm wondering now if the alkaloids are the whole answer. There are hundreds of other active molecules in there too, that are not alkaloids.
Bagazo,
friendly solvents are part of what makes it kitchen friendly... the other aspect is just how difficult it is to get a strong concentration using these primitive techniques.
on the 'dangers of nicotine' front, I came across an article in a Oct 1958 Popular Mechanics magazine. (google books)
where they tranquilize deer with nicotine darts, at 300mg doses! That's intramuscular injection, and the deer recover within the hour. As mammalian biology isn't that much different, methinks the dangers may be somewhat overstated. But then, who would lie about nicotine?
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