Big Tobacco in E-Cigs???

[readeuler]

P.S. I couldn't help but keep thinking that the coupons are a market analysis to determine brand loyalty, and if now they are not fishing to see if non redeemed coupons are due to people switching to nicotine harm reduction products...maybe just overthinking that one though.

I've been thinking the same thing. When I stopped quit buying camels when my vape gear arrived, they stepped up the number of coupons sent to me, like twice as many as usual, and more frequently. Target's the king of analyzing your spending habits and learning a great deal of personal information from purchases, so I wouldn't be surprised if RJR has similar capabilities.

I kind of wanted to redeem the Vuse coupons as a way of letting them know where my money now goes, but I seem to have lost them. Oh well!

 

[sub4me]

Kind of like Diacetyl and other chemicals some juice makers add for taste...

Your talking common sense now, be careful, lol.

 

[Penn]

Can I ask why your so against tobacco?? I'm not being a wise ... here I'm genuinely interested....

So far we've only seen a non-answer/denial. I'd like to see a real answer from anyone, not just the person sub4me quoted.

 

[sub4me]

Anyone is free to answer of course I wasn't trying to single out anyone in particular.

 

[JimmyDB]

I will say it's nice to hear you say that every vaper user you know is also a dual user cause some here will say it's one or the other, which is nonsesnse, every person I know that vapes smokes as well. I can't think of one person I know that only vapes besides forum members of course.

I know it wasn't directed at me, but...

I am not a dual user of cigs and vape...
...neither is my wife
...neither are the only other 3 people I personally know, who vape.
I don't personally know (IRL) anyone who is a dual user of cigs and vapor, and I am the only one of the mentioned group above who are forum members. We did all start out as dual users that transitioned into vaping and all but one transitioned very quickly (less than a week).

I have no plans to quit smoking cigars or pipe tobacco, but those are very rare occasions anymore. I don't really care about pipe smoking and I think I can get nearly equal satisfaction from vaping once I get the right pipe, but I can't just whip up a batch of liquid any time I want to try someone else's pipe tobacco etc. But I *can* still enjoy smoking a pipe, unlike cigarettes which when I had tried, were no longer pleasant to me.

While I could possibly get the same chemical enjoyment from a specialized vaping liquid (NET/WTA) as from a cigar, I am just not sure the ritual involved would translate as well, at least not unless everyone else was vaping... then instead of senselessly arguing about which of our cutters is better and why or which lighter etc, we could talk about our vape equipment. Trying to talk to an 'older gentleman' smoking a cigar about my vape gear hasn't went so well as of yet, but, it's a numbers game.

I know that the complete gradient exists, it would be foolish IMO to think otherwise. It's just more about how many vapers you know than anything else.

Just look at the local poll results... Source

Obviously, this is people who also cared enough to join the forum AND to respond... but still, that's a lot of dual users.

 

[JimmyDB]

So far we've only seen a non-answer/denial. I'd like to see a real answer from anyone, not just the person sub4me quoted.

I could only answer as a denial...

I can say that while I am not against 'BT'. It's too big of a group, as I understand it, to be against it as a group unless you have a foundational problem/concern with it... and as I would use the term, the only common ground is that it's related to tobacco... which I am not against. I am against many of the tactics that companies within the 'BT' scope have previously employed. Personally, when I am talking about something 'BT' has done, I use it as a very vague reference to leading companies within the industry, such as RJR or Lorillard, for example.

Do we count Dunhill as 'BT'?
Do we count American Spirit (before AND/OR after the buyout)?
Does 'BT' include non-cigarette tobacco companies?

 

[Penn]

I could only answer as a denial...

I can say that while I am not against 'BT'. It's too big of a group, as I understand it, to be against it as a group unless you have a foundational problem/concern with it... and as I would use the term, the only common ground is that it's related to tobacco... which I am not against. I am against many of the tactics that companies within the 'BT' scope have previously employed. Personally, when I am talking about something 'BT' has done, I use it as a very vague reference to leading companies within the industry, such as RJR or Lorillard, for example.

Do we count Dunhill as 'BT'?
Do we count American Spirit (before AND/OR after the buyout)?
Does 'BT' include non-cigarette tobacco companies?

Well stated. You touch on why some might get a feeling of mixed messages from me.

I don't view big tobacco as evil. In fact I see it as many people buy into the ANTZ rhetoric while simultaneously hating ANTZ. I don't like what RJR proposes with banning bottled liquid. But that isn't them being some evil empire hellbent on killing their customers. If anything it is the folly of most large publicly owned corporations.

Free market capitalism is great when you are small and using it to grow. But once companies get big, they tend to want to stifle the very innovation and ingenuity that true free market capitalism fosters. So yeah, I am not fond of big tobacco due to this, but I refuse to become one of these BT haters that the ANTZ want me to be.

Free choice. Fill your lungs with tar and carcinogens if you want. Vape if you want. Don't do either if that is your choice.

 

[DC2]

...every person I know that vapes smokes as well. I can't think of one person I know that only vapes besides forum members of course.

There's a reason for that...

 

[sub4me]

I'm not worried about what the tobacco companies want or are proposing, of course they are gonna try to protect their target market, they want to make profits, that's what its all about. I'm not buying there little e cigs or disposables but many are and good for them, I don't care. Disposables and small rechargables have a place. Many people that smoke like to pick up a disposable for when their out for the evening, maybe to use at a bar that allows its use but doesn't allow smoking. That crowd may have no interest in buying a device or bottled liquid, good for them, and those are the ones that will buy the smaller e cigs and I don't care.

Bottled liquids will probably not be going anywhere, its becoming very mainstream and popping up in more stores everywhere. People like to fill their own device and pick their own liquids. Now sure some of these tobacco companies would prefer you only have access to their overpriced products and that's why their pushing ridiculous regualtions but they don't usually get what they want. They can ask for the moon and propose whatever they want, doesn't mean their getting it.

Also many tobacco companies have already invested in or bought part of the bottled liquid companies or make own liquid like JC and Criss Cross liquids. They understand the bottled liquids aren't going anywhere and they want a piece of it also, can't blame them for that.

I don't care how many people say they only smoke, or only vape, or do both, or quit one for the other. Makes no difference to me. I also understand that what you read on the internet may not be realistic in the real world. Many like to say they quit smoking and only vape, which is fine. Is it true?? I have no idea. But I know from what I see is most vapers I know also smoke and most smoke shops sell tobacco and bottled liquid and ecigs and many people buy all of it together. Are their vapers who only vape?? I'm sure there are, just as there's smokers who only smoke. But from what I see in the real world people tend to do both and there's room for all of us.

 

[DC2]

Now sure some of these tobacco companies would prefer you only have access to their overpriced products and that's why their pushing ridiculous regualtions but they don't usually get what they want. They can ask for the moon and propose whatever they want, doesn't mean their getting it.

Big Pharma, Big Government, and the ANTZ will all support what Big Tobacco is asking for.

 

[sub4me]

That's just you assuming. I choose to believe otherwise. Now I'm sure their gonna figure out a way to tax the liquid that's what its really about.

 

[DC2]

That's just you assuming. I choose to believe otherwise. Now I'm sure their gonna figure out a way to tax the liquid that's what its really about.

There is no question that Big Pharma wants to eliminate electronic cigarettes as long as they can not profit from them.
Anything that keeps people from using electronic cigarettes to quit smoking is to their benefit.

But since electronic cigarettes are NOT going to be eliminated now that Judge Leon issued his ruling, their next best bet is Big Tobacco controlled nearly-useless products.
It allows them to continue demonizing vapers by association with Big Tobacco, and also minimizing the number of smokers that quit.


There is no question that the ANTZ want to eliminate electronic cigarettes from the face of the earth, no matter how, or who suffers for it.
Anything that keeps people from using electronic cigarettes to quit smoking is to their benefit.

But since electronic cigarettes are NOT going to be eliminated now that Judge Leon issued his ruling, their next best bet is Big Tobacco controlled nearly-useless products.
It allows them to continue demonizing vapers by association with Big Tobacco, which gives them something to live for, and keeps their funding flowing.


I will admit that one can argue what types of products Big Government would like to see as a result of regulations.

We all know they want to tax these products, but this is a complex question...

--Do they think they can get more taxes from vaping?
--Or do they think they can get more taxes by driving people away from vaping and back to smoking?

--And for those that keep on vaping, will disposable cartridges offer the opportunity for more tax revenue?
--Or will having access to free-roaming eliquid that can be used to refill offer the chance for more tax revenue?

So yes, I am assuming, but based on what I consider to be sound (if not obvious) logical conclusions.

 

[JimmyDB]

There is no question that the ANTZ want to eliminate electronic cigarettes from the face of the earth, no matter how, or who suffers for it.
Anything that keeps people from using electronic cigarettes to quit smoking is to their benefit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

We all know they want to tax these products, but this is a complex question...

--Do they think they can get more taxes from vaping?
--Or do they think they can get more taxes by driving people away from vaping and back to smoking?

--And for those that keep on vaping, will disposable cartridges offer the opportunity for more tax revenue?
--Or will having access to free-roaming eliquid that can be used to refill offer the chance for more tax revenue?

So yes, I am assuming, but based on what I consider to be sound (if not obvious) logical conclusions.

If you can't tell, I broke up the quote... if you are seeing the quote for the first time please click the ">>" icon to read the entire thing, but it's likely right above this post.

Anyway... yeah, I think ANTZ by definition don't want e-cigs or anything related to nicotine use since they are anti-nicotine and tobacco zealots.

As far as the taxation... yeah, they already figured out HOW to tax it (tobacco product)... now they are working on how much etc,. It's not like calling something or regulating something as a 'tobacco product' has anything to do with actually being related to tobacco... same thing for Schedule X drugs... super loose guidelines that they can break at will (and have).

I'm sure 'they' (I love the infamous 'they') must have realized that unless it leads to a shorter lifespan/vapingspan than smoking and/or costs more in healthcare... then they should be wanting people to vape. More time vaping roughly equates to more time consuming a taxable item... which could in part be why they are so 'against' it right now. Best way to drive a rebel to do something is to make doing it an act of rebellion

Maybe 'they' are just miling BT and other lobbyists for as much as they can before the 'turn the other cheek' in the 'two-faced' way I generally perceive politicians and law makers to act in.

Hmmm... I may be in a mood right now

 

[sub4me]

I can buy packaged cigarettes or I can MYO, I can by pre filled cartos or I can fill my own tanks, same thing for e liquid I don't see any banning of bottled liquid happening I think its just an over reaction. Its all about the tax income, that's all they really care about, and once they are able to tax it they wont care to much anymore about it just like tobacco products.

 

[JimmyDB]

@sub4me:

I mostly agree with you... I have seen things like flavors and cloves go away in my time though and electric RYO equipment restricted in use... so, I'm not as confident that 'they' will not think something some of us like (maybe flavors, maybe certain flavors, maybe tanks above a certain size) are somehow eating in to their profits taxes and forbid them.

I sure hope you are right though!

 

[DC2]

I can buy packaged cigarettes or I can MYO, I can by pre filled cartos or I can fill my own tanks, same thing for e liquid I don't see any banning of bottled liquid happening I think its just an over reaction. Its all about the tax income, that's all they really care about, and once they are able to tax it they wont care to much anymore about it just like tobacco products.

That would be fine if it was just about government.

But it isn't government that started the war against electronic cigarettes.
And it isn't government alone that continues to wage that war with such fervor.

The war won't end when the government gets their cut, I can guarantee that.

 

[Krashman Von Stinkputin]

Hmmm.. I don't like how they say it's just like tobacco and their the ones who know! Almost like they want it classified as a tobacco product. That opens vaping up to regulation, taxation and expensive approval processes. Right down their alley I guess!

It already is a tobacco product.
See FDA vs.Sottera (2010)

FDA Loses Appeal, Can't Regulate Electronic Cigarettes as Drug, Court Says - Bloomberg

And since legally they are a tobacco product they fall under
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act 2009

Which led to the FDA Deeming Regs--which are being finalized now.

Read these and you're all caught up.

 

[JimmyDB]

It already is a tobacco product.
See FDA vs.Sottera (2010)

FDA Loses Appeal, Can't Regulate Electronic Cigarettes as Drug, Court Says - Bloomberg

And since legally they are a tobacco product they fall under
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act 2009

Which led to the FDA Deeming Regs--which are being finalized now.

Read these and you're all caught up.

Deeming – Extending Authorities to Additional Tobacco Products

Currently FDA regulates cigarettes, cigarette tobacco, roll-your-own tobacco and smokeless tobacco. Proposed newly “deemed” products would include electronic cigarettes, cigars, pipe tobacco, certain dissolvables that are not “smokeless tobacco,” gels, and waterpipe tobacco.

Once the proposed rule becomes final, FDA will be able to use powerful regulatory tools, such as age restrictions and rigorous scientific review of new tobacco products and claims to reduce tobacco-related disease and death.

 

[sub4me]

I choose not to worry about the what ifs and will live in the world I'm in now. If things change I will learn to live within those changes. Just like smoking, it used to be I could smoke anywhere I wanted but now things have changed and I have had to change also. Did I like it?? No, of course not but I didn't join a group to protest, write endless letters to my representives (which never get read, lol), or march on the capital. I'm old enough to know there are things I have no control over weather I like it or not.

Some want to constantly worry about what may happen, what scary forces are wanting to torture you, and a lot of it is just worry over nothing. Remember most things aren't usually as bad as you think they might be.

 

[DC2]

It already is a tobacco product.
See FDA vs.Sottera (2010)

FDA Loses Appeal, Can't Regulate Electronic Cigarettes as Drug, Court Says - Bloomberg

And since legally they are a tobacco product they fall under
Family Smoking Prevention and Tobacco Control Act 2009

Which led to the FDA Deeming Regs--which are being finalized now.

Read these and you're all caught up.

I'm not sure that's exactly correct.

--Judge Leon said the FDA could not regulate them as drug delivery devices
--The FDA expressed concern that electronic cigarettes would then go totally unregulated
--Judge Leon suggested that the FDA could regulate them as tobacco products.

But until the FDA deems them to be tobacco products (deeming regulations) they are not YET tobacco products.

That's the way I've always understood it anyway.
But I could be wrong.