So this is interesting

[Idaholandho]

Forgive my ignorance but... I just can't picture how Big tobacco is going to be able to stomp the little guys. You can make your own ecigs(mods) same goes for juice. They can probably flood the market and have huge marketing campaigns to get the everyday joe smoker, but I believe there will still be a market for those that want to delve deeper into vaping.

Not getting into an economic discussion but here is a simple answer, more money , more employees, more advertising opportunities, etc.,
allows for big tobacco companies to distribute in a larger arena, persuade in new customers on a larger scale, build a cheaper and less expensive product due to lower manufacturing costs, etc..
Much like how small town city retail stores in rural America have been quickly becoming vacant due to Wal-Mart type retail.
Please continue to support your small business local vape shops and the "vaping family businesses", as I have mentioned in another thread some of these small/medium businesses have pourd their lives into making quality and safe alternaitive products for us.
GL

 

[MorpheusPA]

gawd only knows what they'd put in their juices.. *eye roll*

That's what worries me. Cigarettes have additives and are chemically modified to make them more addictive. I don't put it past them to do the same with e-liquids.

When I make my own at my kitchen island I know exactly what's in it and what the potential impurities are. None of those impurities are at any level that bothers me, and none are exactly deadly anyway.

 

[myyrkezaan]

I

That's what worries me. Cigarettes have additives and are chemically modified to make them more addictive. I don't put it past them to do the same with e-liquids.

When I make my own at my kitchen island I know exactly what's in it and what the potential impurities are. None of those impurities are at any level that bothers me, and none are exactly deadly anyway.

Why does that concern you? You don't have to buy that product and you're making your own liquid.

 

[Berylanna]

I

Why does that concern you? You don't have to buy that product and you're making your own liquid.

Because they can probably work with the FDA to fix it so we can NOT make our own liquid.

 

[myyrkezaan]

Because they can probably work with the FDA to fix it so we can NOT make our own liquid.

That is a possibility now with what the FDA and BP are doing without any interaction from BT.

 

[patkin]

I understand the ethical/emotional negatives but I also see this as a good thing in a few of respects. One, if they're sinking money into this, then they know how the FDA is likely to rule. They are, afterall, capitalists even at its worst and do have all lobbyist's inside info. Two, if the FDA rulings drive mom and pop out, I still want a place to get nic without smoking it. I hope that doesn't happen of course but from what I'm reading here, especially from a few vendors who say their thumbs on the pulse, they're already preparing trying to avoid the FDA ruling consequences. And, three, so many of us complain about not knowing what's in our juices and how safe they are and I see the research BT lends the industry as a good thing. I have to wonder about the fears of those suspecting BT of adding "addictive substances"... geeez... isn't the core product addictive in itself? I mean why are we vaping... to get nicotine! So BT is trying to get us "addicted" to licorice? I just never have understood this take.

Speaking of fear, much of what I read here is seriously scarey and I don't know from day-to-day if I should purchase large supplies of nic in case its banned or heavily taxed. Its hard not to get caught up in the fear waves but I also, sometimes, wonder about capitalism with that too. So, trying to offset all the fear, I'm trying to stay positive even where BT is conerned. Do I like them... no. Do I think they're unethical? Yes. But, also, do I think they'll be heavily regulated on juices... even moreso than with smokes?... you bet. Anyone worried about what they're getting in their juices right now from mom and pop should welcome research and regulation as consumers and those engaged in capitalism should prepare for quality/safety controls that exist in every other industry.

 

[jtpjc]

And what if BT produces proprietary products and puts rubbish in their e-liquid. If they do, they will not sell anything. We, the consumers, are not stupid. So they won't.

 

[Magius]

Lorillard Tobacco is already in the game, since they bought Blu, and they're the ones behind the TV commercials.

At the risk of being the Devil's Advocate...
With upcoming FDA deeming and probable legislation to follow, is BT in the game necessarily a bad thing? Changes are coming, regardless of the fact that we don't like like the fact. How bad those changes are remains to be determined, but they're going to be bad.

Many vapers consider Big Tobacco and Big Pharmacy to be the enemy. However, the biggest enemy is Big Government and its insatiable appetite to regulate everything.
IMO, the recent hearings and commentary were mere formalities, before the FDA making their predetermined recommendation. Clearly, those hearings had as much effect as Vice President Biden meeting with the NRA... none. The FDA reps just nodded their empty heads, and went on about business as usual. And don't think FDA didn't take Judge Leon's 2010 ruling as a slap in the face to their bureaucratic authority.

In a worst case scenario e-cigs could be illegalized completely. No one will be able to replace their batteries, or atomizers as they will be banned from import or production. There will be no juice companies or DIY, because nicotine base will go away forever.
Some die hards may be able to get by for a while by making their own mods, and even growing and extracting their own nicotine. However, for the overwhelming majority of us vaping will cease to be an option.

The mid-tier effects would mean costs are going to go up. Manufacture of e-liquid will be regulated to certified labs subject to FDA, BATFE, and OSHA regulations and enforcement. Sale could be regulated to only pre-filled carts, so the public need not handle poisonous nicotine liquid for safety reasons. Never mind the fact that the same public can handle petroleum products like gasoline, swimming pool chemicals, insecticides, and rat poison responsibly. Nicotine juice could also be subject to tobacco taxes at both the federal and state level.

In the best case scenario the government will leave the e-cig industry alone. IMO, that's not going to happen. The government never saw a regulation nor a tax it didn't like, and this won't be the first exception. Regulation is coming.

In a case of "My enemy's enemy is my friend" wouldn't CASAA do well to ally with BT to mitigate the severity of said regulation? IMO CASAA doesn't have enough clout or money to stop or even really affect the legislation on its own.
BT will try to optimize any legislation to their favor, and without CASAA interests represented there is little hope that legislation will be lenient on 'our' industry.

Finally, I will say that the e-cig industry is already in bed with BT to a degree. AFAIK, e-liquid nicotine comes from the plants grown by the Tobacco Growers Association, which walks hand in hand with the cigarette manufacturers. If that's not the case please feel free to correct me.

And remember, no matter what happens it's for the best, because your government knows best and they're looking out for you.

 

[Idaholandho]

Great post.
I have gone into this deeper in other posts in other threads but, as a occaisional self proclaimed conspiracy watched by a sector team of government moles that are watching me sleep(j/k). Your post indicates who most think the "enemy" and whom you think it is but, I would like to add my thought. I feel the tobacco companies have a relationship with the government like no other industry to include a wink wink and a secret handshake. The money that is passed through back and forth is unimaginable. The govt knows the generated tax revenues that rains on them in Washington DC. The money that is passed for political gains is also staggering. This is why I refer to them as the "company". Yes they have been fined for bribery attempts but none of them hurt business and wasnt even a dent or a flutter in their corperate accounts There is so much to the relationship that the average person will never know.
My point is that some of us feel the govt runs every step of the process from farming, testing and selling to production. I am one.
Its not illuminati level secrecy but heavily influenced by said government.
Again great post.

 

[Doglips]

I see the negative sides as people have mentioned...Big Tobacco is not exactly someone people trust..or want to be associated with..and the potential for them to do who knows what to the mix is a concern.

I also see some positives. Quality control....lets face it we all get frustrated by new batteries, carts and other stuff that is junk right out of the package...Id love to see a company like Duracell put their name on batteries...Id pay more for them.

They also bring $$$ to the table, advertisements and such that can help make people more aware of what vapeing is...and dispel some of the BS lies that float around.

It would also be nice to be able to pick up some carts or such at 7-11....

 

[fwellers]

I have to wonder about the fears of those suspecting BT of adding "addictive substances"... geeez... isn't the core product addictive in itself? I mean why are we vaping... to get nicotine! So BT is trying to get us "addicted" to licorice? I just never have understood this take.

Cigarettes have addicting nicotine, but that wasn't good enough for BT. They had to add a whole host of chemicals designed to help the body absorb the nicotine the fastest and most addicting way possible.
With that kind of track record I see no reason to believe they won't try the same with juice.

 

[cags]

Big tobacco companies know that vaping is another way of making them money...I don't trust them at all

and I don't trust that they won't put extra stuff in the liquid...........

 

[Idaholandho]

It would also be nice to be able to pick up some carts or such at 7-11....

I refer to one of my earlier posts...this is what puts small business out of business. This would be bad. I for one want to support the vaping community and each other. Economically your last sentence is disturbing. I don't care for your post. GL

 

[J.R. Bob Dobbs]

personally , if BT gets into PV's i am OK with that. because then they have something to defend from getting banned by BP/fda. That kinda would put them on our side of the argument, despite that they would be doing it for profit margins. they have virtually limitless resources for scientific research and development. I only hope they don't knock off the 4081, 808 etc and just say its the best out there. I would however support the vendors here on ECF, even if it cost more to do so.

 

[Dmforse11]

I will have to let all of you know when they get this product in. My store will probably get it in pretty quickly once they release it to the market and I will have to let yall know how this thing looks (Since I won't be buying one). When I talked to the vendor he said they would probably be using the cartridge system which I still wouldn't trust. So i'm just guessing it will be a lot like the bleu E cig.

 

[daddytwigs]

Idono. BT sells tubes, loose tobacco, injectors, papers for the "DIY" smoker. And they make a killing, marketing the loose tobacco as "pipe" tobacco and saving on taxes.
Call me naive, or worse...
I don't see why they wouldn't sell juice, flavors, at least egos or riva systems.and maybe, some of the supply issues I hear about and deal with will not be tolerated by BT. You know, the BS DOA warranties that middle suppliers pass on to us (that's another issue I suppose, but yeah, I really am fed up with being expected to check every single piece of hardware the minute it arrives, then have to pay for return postage for defects).some of the "little"guys need to be driven out IMHO. BT is probably the lesser of two evils. Im with the enemy of FDA, breathNH, ANTZ (fill in your local zealots acronym) camp.

 

[LisaR]

I definitely have some concerns about Big Tobacco getting involved in e-cigarettes, but frankly, they have so much money and power that I would rather have them with us than against us. It's up to us to continue supporting the "little guys", even if we can get things cheaper at Walmart. It may not turn out to be any different than picking up a bag of apples at Target when you can't make it to the farmer's market (where the apples are better and cheaper, but not always as convenient). It's up to us to make every week have a "Small Business Saturday."

 

[patkin]

Cigarettes have addicting nicotine, but that wasn't good enough for BT. They had to add a whole host of chemicals designed to help the body absorb the nicotine the fastest and most addicting way possible.
With that kind of track record I see no reason to believe they won't try the same with juice.

On that basis, then vapor is "worse" than smoke because nicotine is absorbed from it much faster.