BWB in UFS - not a good experience

[atavanhalen]

Guys, 1 min please.

I thought 1 year ago to make a juice with tobacco extracts but if I would do it then what are the benefits from vaping? Will we start again smoking? Thats crazy and silly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cigs have inside carginogenic materials, dangerous heavy metals, radioactive meterials, etc. Is this the new style of vaping? I am socked!!

none of us really
know what artificial flavoring will do to our lungs or bodies in the long term either(or pg or vg for that matter). I use vaping as a safer alternative and using tobacco this way is much better than burning and inhaling it in my opinion. There are actually several vendors that use natural tobacco flavor extracts and to be totally honest a couple of them are in my top 5 favorite vendors. The benefits are that you are still not burning the tobacco and that is where a huge percentage of that nasty chemicals cocktail comes into play, I am by no means an expert and am by no means saying that vaping natural tobacco flavor extract is good for you but I will say that my opinion is that it is still hundreds of times better than smoking a cigarette. I also have not done the research on how many of the actual chemicals are transfered when they make a tobacco flavor extract but I would tend to think that there would be far less but that is obviosly a guess. Just my opinion.

@Jolly, I actually had the darkening happen very quickly with Prime15 from Halo, so I am not sure what that means. no sediment though.

 

[imeothanasis]

Using tobacco is a crime to my opinion Vanhalen. But I will do some research about this first

 

[imeothanasis]

Guys, I dont want to say more about this. Anyone with a common sense understands what is happening.

BE CAREFUL OF WHAT YOU BUY!!

 

[Darkstar]

I ordered some BWB juices a little over a week ago and have had some similar issues. I figured I would detail my findings as it may help you all figure out what is going on here.

To get an idea of the total situation I am seeing...
First, none of the juices I am having a problem with had Tobacco flavoring - mine are Cola, Pear, Watermelon and Green Apple.

Then, being pretty new to vaping, I'm still using simple cig-style PVs - specifically owning Volts, eGos and my original generic KR808s. I mainly use Cartos (Volts on the 808 and Boge for the 510/eGo) but have a tank and drip-tip for the eGo as well.

Now, what I am experiencing is Carto-burnout in record time using Volt Cartos on my Volts. Strangely, the carto doesn't run dry - it just burns as if i am vaping an empty carto. If I attempt to fill it again, any new juice will just pour out the bottom of the Cart.

Here's where the really weird part comes in though - if I use the same exact carto that is burning-out with my Volts on the old Generic 808s, they work pretty well. They don't quite get the flavor they should, but they last as long as one would expect per the juice amount.

And to throw another wrench into the equation, if I use a Boge carto on my eGo, there is no problem at all really. (similarly, I have experienced no difficulty at all in my Tank on my eGo)

...so...

From my experience, I agree it seems like it is the heating somehow - but possibly in reverse order then you guys seem to be leaning. My eGo gets hot, yet they work. My old generics similarly get warm pretty fast, and they dont have a problem. But my Volts, which perform the best of all across the board, just cant handle the BWB juice at all.

I kind of feel like maybe the PG and VG have a different ideal temperature range. Like my Volt is maybe hitting the VG fine, but the PG isnt heating enough to release the flavor and its instead gunking up in the carto; while the eGo and generic are heating the PG fairly well but may not be getting ideal VG performance - And when stated like that, coupled with other ideas tossed around in this thread, I do wonder if it does stem from a sugar issue in the PG.

Anyway, as I said, I'm a newbie and could be looking at this the complete wrong way - but at least that's my experience and deduction based off my limited understanding to this point. Hope it helps you guys figure out whats really going on!

 

[Darkstar]

Using tobacco is a crime to my opinion Vanhalen. But I will do some research about this first

Unless you are vaping 0-nic, you are getting tobacco extract in your juice already.

 

[imeothanasis]

Why do you say that Dark?

 

[atavanhalen]

Why do you say that Dark?

He was just making the point that all nicotine comes from Tobacco at one point.

 

[imeothanasis]

Nic comes from tobacco, ok Van. But nic is nic, its not an extract that contains all the other ingredients that tobacco has!

 

[Darkstar]

Nic comes from tobacco, ok Van. But nic is nic, its not an extract that contains all the other ingredients that tobacco has!

Actually, nicotine is the worst chemical in natural tobacco. Its really a poison, and is used in many extermination processes.

But anyway, most of the health issues associated with Tobacco are either present in additives only after the natural growing and processing, or brought about because of the actual burning of the leaves.

On the other hand, Tobacco Absolute (which is what is used to get the tobacco flavoring) is also commonly used in aromatherapy, where it has been given a clean bill of health. As far as I can find, there are really no health issues to be found in Tobacco Absolute.

Ironically, the anti-smoking propaganda machines have done a great disservice regarding natural Tobacco. Its actually been found to have many, many, many positive effects on the body, and its negative effects are actually extremely few. (I havent read it/them myself, but books such as The Health Benefits of Tobacco are out there and might be worth giving a looksie...)

Unfortunately, the absolute worst part of the smoking process is the inhalation - and that's something we are not eliminating when putting the analogs down for our PVs. The benefit is we are not receiving the tar, carbon monoxide, etc - but that is true regardless of your use of Tobacco Absolute.

When all is said and done, Tobacco Absolute doesn't have serious known issues. I can not honestly say the same for all the other flavorings we are inhaling though; leading me to ultimately feel safer vaping Tobacco Absolute over my completely unknown Cinnamon Red Hot chemical concoction - I just dont like the Tobacco taste, while CinRedHot is oooohhhh soooooo gooooooodddddd....

 

[imeothanasis]

Dark, first of all we have to clear some things:

1. Aromatherapy is not a science, there is not a lesson about it in universities, its like the doctors that make surgeries with their fingers or like the magicians that call Jesus and bring people's health back. Also it has nothing to do with inhaling, something you mention and you are absolutely right on it. That means that burning tobacco and inhaling it, is the worst thing we all did the past years. And of course inhaling tobacco is not the same as inhaling something else. For example inhaling water or the flavoring of orange or the flavoring of our meal is not harmful. So the harmful thing is the tobacco and not the inhaling itself.

2. I stopped vaping liquids with flavors 1 month before because I dont know who wants to make experiments on my body. Thats why I vape PG with nic only. Flavors may include carcinogenic ingredients like aromatic hydrocarbons witch are the most harmful to our health.

3. If tobacco was good then we could smoke pipes for example. There is no reason for PVs. But tobacco is not good at all. Its chemistry is too bad for our health. I can find the ingredients of tobacco and I can post them here. And if you tell me that tobacco is getting burned thats why it produces what it produces, I will say that PVs burn the liquid and they produce the same thing if you agree Dark.

 

[Darkstar]

re 1) nah, I meant that there has been the research done on Tobacco Absolute because of its use in aromatherapy. It was cleared as not containing anything which is deemed harmful. Honestly, makes sense considering an Absolute is basically little more then the pure fragrance of a plant

As far as Aromatherapy; at its base, its the heating of plant Absolutes for the intent of inhaling them - nearly identical to what we are doing with our vapors, just with our PVs giving us a much higher concentrate.

And I'm sorry to say, but it is absolutely incorrect about Tobacco being the true dangerous aspect of the inhaling of a cigarette. Burn and inhale anything on a constant basis and you will likely develop cancer, if not quickly die outright from carbon monoxide poisoning.

re 3) Actually, I had stated most of it was from the additives involved in the processing of a cigarette (like Arsenic from pesticides or Ammonia used for flavoring and as a release agent) in conjunction with those released through the burning process itself. Case in point, you do not get either Tar or Carbon Monoxide (the two arguably worst aspects of cigs) through chewing tobacco because nothing is actually burning in that delivery method. You do however get Tar and carbon Monoxide through smoking Pot. In fact, studies have shown you actually get more Tar and Carbon Monoxide through MJ (but mainly because you are unlikely to smoke MJ through a filter)

But PVs do not burn anything, they merely heat extracts.

Lastly, studies have shown quite a few positive affects of Tobacco; including everything from lowering the chance of Breast Cancer to limiting the difficulties experienced by Tourettes Syndrome. In fact, there have been studies showing you are up to 50% less likely to develop Breast, Prostate, Colon, Thyroid, Uterine, and Ulcerative cancers, as well as Alzheimers and Parkinsons diseases, when you are a Tobacco user. Does that mean everyone should smoke? Of course not, but it does show that Tobacco is actually something which needs to be studied more, not instantly written off as an ultimate evil - especially when we know that most of the problems associated with the Plant are actually because we are using it in an incorrect manor after adding negative additives to it.

Plus, we always have that strange Japan Paradox, indicating that the main issue of smoking (Lung Cancer) may actually have a simple counteraction which we just don't fully understand at this time.

Overall, I don't say this to defend smoking (I cant stand it, and quitting was the best thing i ever did) - BUT rather to just show that Tobacco itself isn't necessarily anything close to what its made out to be by the anti-smoking crowd. Tobacco Plants themselves, much like MJ, is a relatively harmful plant with overall positive traits that we just don't understand yet.

 

[imeothanasis]

Hi again Dark

1. aromatherapy lasts for 1/2 hour every 4-5 days and for a specific amount of time in our lifes maybe, but we inhale tobacco
every 5 seconds for the rest of our lifes

2. Tobacco includes dangerous ingredients and I can proove that by searching. Also anyone can do that easily. If things are like you say then why we vape and not smoking pipes as I said before?

3. PV really burn something. They burn the liquid. PVs are burners of the liquid. So burning liquid tobacco we inhale all the stuff that is included on tobacco. heating something will not give us any vapor. The vapor comes from burning the liquid on the wick.

4. All things has 2 sides. The possitive and the negative. Tobacco can do some good (nicotine increase the memory) but thats doesnt mean that we have to start smoking again. Its like steroids. We have a nice result to our apearance but they will kill as at the end.

5. Tobacco doens need more study to find the good it does to us. Its enough for us to know what bad it already can do to our body.

We already know that plants grow with chemicals as you said but if we cant do many things about it then we will still vape those chemicals. I dont really care about tobacco, but for the tobacco we vape. Even if tobacco was a totally safe plant we will still keeping vaping the chemicals on it by its growing proccedure.

If we still dont fully understand tobacco, its enough for us the existing studies about it. We can wait for more studies to feel unsafe or safe. We are based to what we have until now. And what we have is that tobacco is harmful. As for the antitobacco crowd, they have serious reasons for doing this. It would be a little strange for all those people to get crazy without a reason if you agree.

I just cheched the link you gave me and I have to say some things:

Site says:

a Lower alcohol consumption by Japanese males
b Lower fat intake by Japanese males
c Higher efficiency of filters in Japanese cigarettes
d Lower levels of carcinogens in Japanese cigarettes
e Genetic factors that result in Japanese men being less prone to developing lung cancer
f Earlier age of smoking onset in American men
g Lifestyle factors other than smoking, such as diet and exercise

Site says that cancer exists but in lower levels. That means that cancer hits USA more just because of other factors too but that doesnt mean that cancer doesnt comes from tobacco. Also that means that without tobacco cancer would be in much much lower levels.

a,b. we cant do something about the way we live. We have to do something but if we dont do something at least we have to stop vaping tobacco because we can do that easily. We just dont order tobacco!

c. We also cant something about c and d.

e. We cant do many things about genetic factors, we are not Japanese so we have to protect ourselfs

f. We all are earlier smokers so we have to do something now we have the time. That means that we must avoid more encumberment to our health

g. We also have to do something about it but because its more painful and we will never do it we still have to stop at least making our health worse by vaping tobacco.

I am not arguing with you just to argue, but I really believe that tobacco is what we have to concern. Tobacco is a really dangerous stuff like canabis is, like ... and like alcohol. At least we have the oportunity to stop tobacco with PVs. But going back to tobacco even with PVs is a crazy situation for me.

 

[Darkstar]

Wow, lots of stuff to respond to now

re1 - doesn't matter how long you inhale during aromatherapy, youre still inhaling it and Tobacco Absolute has still been scientifically tested for inhalation

re2 - yes, the dangerous ingredient found in a Tobacco plant is Nicotine. Nicotine in large amounts is a poison. Otherwise, almost every single ingredient you are alluding two is added to Tobacco during either the planting, growing, cultivating or processing periods - these additives include up to 400 dangerous chemicals; but they are not part of the actual Tobacco themselves...

Smoking a pipe would still involve the pesticides and additives that is added to the Tobacco when it is transformed from a natural growing plant into a produced, flavorful and performing product. A pipe will also still give you the Tar and Carbon Monoxide produced when the Tobacco is put to fire. Overall, however, Pipes and Cigars are much safer then Cigarettes because the inhalation process is removed (unless youre like me and have a hard time not inhaling your Cigars )

re3 - actually, the PV is heating something. Burning would involve an actual flame and the combustion process.

Think of it this way. Put a lemon on an open fire and you wont have a lemon very long. But if you put a lemon in a metal pan over that same open fire though, it will cook because it is no longer burning and instead being heated. The Tobacco and added chemicals in a cigarette are burning; they have come in direct contact with fire and were left smoldering at a temperature in the range of 500-600 degrees.

re5 - what i am trying to explain is that Tobacco itself does almost 100% good to us (unless you somehow overdose on nicotine). What doesn't do good for us is the actual burning of the tobacco for inhalation reasons; especially after so many added chemicals have been added. If you planted a tobacco leaf in your house, dried it and smoked it like Pot, you would have a Cigarette that is basically as safe as a Joint. You would still get the Tar and Carbon Monoxide from either the Tobacco or Joint because of the burning process, but you would'nt be inhaling the 400 or so additives which are the main reason we are ending up with cancer

but, again, the Tobacco Absolute we would be using for vaping doesn't have all those chemicals either! The Tobacco used for absolute wont have all the taste and performance chemicals from the Cigarette processing - the leaf would have never been made into a cigarette. The only possible chemicals in the Leaf would be the pesticides; but they would be removed from the Absolute process. Tobacco Absolute doesn't even have Nicotine in it, nicotine is an Alkaloid and can not make it through the Absolute process.

The Anti-tobacco crowd is as crazy as they are mainly because they dont like the actual end result "Cigarette" and its manufacturer, but that has little to nothing to do with Tobacco itself - they just cant seem to grasp that and ignorantly label Cigarettes and Tobacco as if they are one in the same. Ironically, many of those same people smoke pot - a habit in which they are just as likely to receive Cancer through if they smoke it regularly. Some studies have said that smoking a single joint is like smoking 5 cigarettes because of the unfiltered inhalation of the tar and carbon monoxide you get when you inhale almost any tight packed, burning item. Yet most of these anti-smokers think nothing of that as if they are oblivious to the reality around them...

Re the Japan Paradox - yeah, I know smokers there still develop Lung Cancer, I was highlighting it to show that there are many, many, many other factors in the development of Cancer, and that there may actually be counteractions to Lung Cancer such as the possibility Green Tea wards it off with some level of success.

But in the end, can you at least give me an example of Tobacco Leaves themselves being dangerous? Like, really, can you name a naturally occurring chemical in Tobacco which is known to produce problems in people? (outside of the actual Nicotine itself, of course)

Somewhat similarly, can you maybe fill me in on possible dangerous chemicals which can survive an Absolute process?

All in all, it seems you are fearing the chemicals companies add to Tobacco when they make it into a Cigarette, not the actual Tobacco itself - that is the part I just don't understand here at all. Tobacco, in a way, is not unlike a sugar pill - nothing dangerous about it until you lace it with arsenic and drop it in a mans whiskey

 

[imeothanasis]

lol, now I have to give a lot of answers Dark!

First of all I want to say that I am searching the truth. I concern about the e-cig industry because I want to know what we all vape. I stopped smoking to be healthy, not to die by vaping. So if you are right on what you say then I will admit it imediately that I was wrong and I will be very happy to vape tobacco.

ok,

re1. You said that doesn't matter how long you inhale during aromatherapy. You know already that all things in this life depent on time. If you smoke for one year its not the same as if you smoke for 5 years and not the same if you smoke for 20 years. Also if you drink too much water you will die because your stomach will explode lol. So time is the most critical point.

And I dont really care about what chemicals exist on the tobacco itself but I do care about all those chemicals that exist on the plants that are growing and of course for the chemicals that companies put on their tobacco. So exctrating liquid from a ready ciggarete is very dangerous proccedure.

PV are not heating something and I will tell you why Dark. If the resistance was under a piece of metal and liquid inside this metal like to our kitcens when the resistance under the pan heats our food, we would say that its heating but things are not like that. The thing is that liquid comes in direct contact with a wire that has more than 500-600 celsius degrees maybe, thats why it gets red hot. If you want to see what is happening, put a wick that is not fire resistance and it will fire immediately. That means that in reality the liquid is getting burned. If it was not getting burned be sure that we wouldnt have any smoke and so quick after firing the button on a PV.

I dont know what is tobacco absolute but as I said again, the plants dont grow as they have to grow. My 4 uncles on my village raise this plant. The pesticides they put while the plants are growing and the chemicals they put when they dry them are too many. They still smoke of course because they are addicted to smoking but they tell me that if I knew what they do on those plants I would quit smoking immediately. And they smoke their own cigarettes.

Pesticides are the most innocent to the whole proccedure. Pesticides exists to almost all our food. They are not the main issue for sure. And be sure that pesticides are part of the plant and every plant out there. And we put those plants to our stomachs.

I would really like to tell me what is absolute process because I dont really know. Its a proccedure that do what? Sorry but I dont know anything about it.

Its a little hard to believe that people that really fight tobacco use spot. Of course there are spot users but they dont fight cigarretes for sure, hahaha

I am also sure that other factors are responsible for cancer but the way you put it its like you say that cigarettes are not the main reason for cancer. Thats not true. Showing me this site about Japanese was a little irellevant to our conversation if you agree

Something about smokeless tobacco that doesnt get burned so we dont have the dangerous results of burning. But as you see its still very dangerous stuff:

Effects of Smokeless Tobacco

You will tell me of course that these products include chemicals because they are made in same factories that make ciggaretes. Sure, I agree. But as you see we are in a dead end until now. We cant control any proccedure and we already know that every proccedure is dangerous (exept maybe this absolute process that you can explain to me if you want buddy)

 

[atavanhalen]

PV are not heating something and I will tell you why Dark. If the resistance was under a piece of metal and liquid inside this metal like to our kitcens when the resistance under the pan heats our food, we would say that its heating but things are not like that. The thing is that liquid comes in direct contact with a wire that has more than 500-600 celsius degrees maybe, thats why it gets red hot. If you want to see what is happening, put a wick that is not fire resistance and it will fire immediately. That means that in reality the liquid is getting burned. If it was not getting burned be sure that we wouldnt have any smoke and so quick after firing the button on a PV.

I have to disagree with this and most people disagree. The liquid that we vape is being vaporized, that is why we call it vaping.
Nothing is on fire, the coil heats up the glycerin , flavoring, and nicotine and produces a vapor. If we were burning anything and inhaling it then there would be no advantage to vaping. I am very surprised that this is what you believe because it is opposite of what everyone else believes. The coil does not get red hot when there is liquid present, it only becomes red hot when there is no liquid. Also, there is a distinct smell to smoke and it does not go away, the vapor that exhale from vaping evaporates quickly. I hope I do not come off as rude, I am just confused by your thoughts.

 

[gratefulbuddy]

All this science talk got me thinking: IMHO what we are doing is closer to evaporation. Much like when we boil water a 'steam' is created that is made up of water molecules that were released due to the increased energy given to them through the increased temperature applied. No chemical change occurs (unlike when a product is combusted.) Also IMHO the coil is kept much cooler than what has been stated as there is an 'evaporative cooling' effect occuring whereby the vapor that is released 'takes' energy away with it and lowers the temp of the remaining liquid.

 

[imeothanasis]

I have to disagree with this and most people disagree. The liquid that we vape is being vaporized, that is why we call it vaping.
Nothing is on fire, the coil heats up the glycerin , flavoring, and nicotine and produces a vapor. If we were burning anything and inhaling it then there would be no advantage to vaping. I am very surprised that this is what you believe because it is opposite of what everyone else believes. The coil does not get red hot when there is liquid present, it only becomes red hot when there is no liquid. Also, there is a distinct smell to smoke and it does not go away, the vapor that exhale from vaping evaporates quickly. I hope I do not come off as rude, I am just confused by your thoughts.

That has nothing to do with smell Vanhalen. Smell is because cigarette has that smell. Its not a smell that comes from burning. As for the vaporising issue, the same will happen if you put a liquid (water or anything else) on a red hot resistance. It will be evaporated. It cant get "burned" because it is liquid only and not because it doesnt get burned. And coil doesnt get red hot just because the liquid is on it that it gets burned. To my opinion PV are liquid burners

 

[imeothanasis]

All this science talk got me thinking: IMHO what we are doing is closer to evaporation. Much like when we boil water a 'steam' is created that is made up of water molecules that were released due to the increased energy given to them through the increased temperature applied. No chemical change occurs (unlike when a product is combusted.) Also IMHO the coil is kept much cooler than what has been stated as there is an 'evaporative cooling' effect occuring whereby the vapor that is released 'takes' energy away with it and lowers the temp of the remaining liquid.

I agree grate but evaporising is the burn of a liquid. Liquid dont get burned itself. Its a mix of their vapor and air that gets burned. We need oxygen to burn something and oxygen exists while we are vaping because air comes inside atomizer all the time

 

[Darkstar]

hahaha, yeah, lots of stuff going on

But, as you said, its about getting to the bottom of everything - we, as vapers, need to try to find the truth as best as possible as we dont want to be passing on bad info!

Anyway, getting down to dirty...

First, I think you may be missing my point on the aromatherapy thing. Honestly, what I am saying there has nothing to do with Aromatherapy itself really - I am merely pointing out the reason Tobacco Absolute was tested for the production of hazardous release. Their finding was, it doesn't.

Then, you should care (/be thinking of) only what chemicals are in the actual Tobacco itself - that is what the Absolute is made from! Its not like people are dissecting cigarettes to get a Plants Fragrance - they are getting it from actual Plants. That is where Tobacco Absolute comes from; the plant

As far as heating v burning, as the others have said, this isn't burning. Burning can only take place under a direct heat source whereby combustion takes place. We have zero combustion here - in fact, we nearly have the opposite of combustion with the end results being a cold mist.

But its really as simple as, you cant have burning without a fire. We have no fire. No combustion and no fire means no burning.

Oh, and we arent getting "smoke" from our PVs - we are getting a "Vapor" (and condensation)

But this is where our issue comes in:

I dont know what is tobacco absolute

An Absolute is the fragrance of a plant. That's it, nothing more. Chemicals (for the most part) dont make it through the process; you are left with little more then the smell (and taste, to an extent) of the plant. And when remembering back to the aromatherapy conversation, we know for a fact that Tobacco Absolute has been tested and found to lose all possible dangerous chemicals - its been deemed safe to be inhaled by the scientists.

oh and as far as the effects of smokeless tobacco - of course it causes problems, its still been through a chemical change to produce the product used. Its not like its just a can of pure grown tobacco leaves. But even if it was, keeping anything tucked into your gum will increase your likelihood of cancer and gum/teeth issues.

 

[Darkstar]

All this science talk got me thinking: IMHO what we are doing is closer to evaporation. Much like when we boil water a 'steam' is created that is made up of water molecules that were released due to the increased energy given to them through the increased temperature applied. No chemical change occurs (unlike when a product is combusted.) Also IMHO the coil is kept much cooler than what has been stated as there is an 'evaporative cooling' effect occuring whereby the vapor that is released 'takes' energy away with it and lowers the temp of the remaining liquid.

Great name