Can modern MOD units get above 450 F degrees in power mode?

[Mike-vape]

I have a separate new thread on asking how to set temp control on some kits I bought. (outcome: apparently I have the wrong tanks for that.)

But now I am wondering if I really need TC. Here is why I *think* I need TC: keeping temperatures below 450 F to avoid carcinogen production from PG VG base mix. (see this link: New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers )

But maybe modern mod vapes with safety regulators built in never get above 450 F in power mode anyway?

I'd love for that to be true, does anyone know?

Thanks! Michael

 

[Dougiestyle]

No. In power mode, given a mod that can produce the watts, the sky is the limit.

 

[ShamrockPat]

But maybe modern MOD vapes with safety regulators built in never get above 450 F in power mode anyway?

Simply, No.
Most modern regulated mods are wattage driven. TC can only work with specific material(wire) where a temperature of the coil is guesstimated based on the rising resistance of the coil. When using Kanthal or Nichrome (not Nickel) material there is very little resistance change of the coil. Your mod has no clue if you've put a single thin wire coil (low mass) or some big mumbo jumbo fancy (high mass) coil, so you need to set the appropriate watts. You can set those watts as high as you want within the mod limits.

 

[AttyPops]

Most vapers don't vape over those temps anyway, as it tastes like crap.

The rule of thumb is start low, dial up until it works. Don't try overshooting.
Replace wick/coils reasonably often to avoid overheating.

Too low, though, and it can be harsh too.

 

[AvaOrchid]

I don't know for sure but I think Gantz had something to do with that study... much of his work is not reproducible and many of his assumptions and they were assumptions turns out have been discredited. I'm not sure if that was the study but a study that came out with similar conclusion to replicate the situation we would all have to be vaping happily on scorched cotton and coils. The situation that allows for that amount of formaldehyde at least in the recreation of the study that I saw that came to the same conclusion as this one involved steady pressing for as long as the device would allow without inhalation of air so there was nothing to cool the coil down as it would in actually use there was no pump or no mechanism to draw air through the atomizer. Also without drawing through the device you also don't tend to be able to saturate the wicks correctly...

Now this study could be a different one and I looked but I can't find the copy I have of the attempted re-creation that literally could not create the same results on a usable Vape device. This could be a different study and they might have done it completely differently then the one that was attempted to be recreated and came to the conclusion that no human being would use the device at the point where it starts making excess amounts of formaldehyde however I have a feeling they are one in the same but that's just a feeling do not modify your behavior based on what I am saying.

 

[AngeNZ]

I have a separate new thread on asking how to set temp control on some kits I bought. (outcome: apparently I have the wrong tanks for that.)

But now I am wondering if I really need TC. Here is why I *think* I need TC: keeping temperatures below 450 F to avoid carcinogen production from PG VG base mix. (see this link: New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers )

But maybe modern MOD vapes with safety regulators built in never get above 450 F in power mode anyway?

I'd love for that to be true, does anyone know?

Thanks! Michael

If you are concerned, then get a tank that can be used in TC. You can use any different tank on a mod you already have.

Start a thread in the Tanks forum:
Tanks, clearomizers and drop-in coils
Specify that you want a TC tank and whether you are looking for MTL or DL tanks

 

[Mike-vape]

Thanks all, really good help! (And I did find a good TC tank and just ordered it).

 

[BrotherBob]

Thanks! Michael

Looks like I welcomed you before. Note that you are limited to the number of post in this forum.
re: New Members - "How many posts do I need to..."
In the future, you might want to post in the ECF forum most closely representing your subject/question.
Often times,you may receive more knowledgeable/germane/extensive information from the membership in the above/appropriate forum.

 

[Mordacai]

@Mike-vape, goto 23 minutes in and enjoy.

 

[Mordacai]

But yhea, that definitely went way past 450.

 

[RuiG]

Welcome to ECF

Like already said, in power mode I think the limit is meltdown.

Stay safe and have fun.

 

[Katya]

I don't know for sure but I think Gantz had something to do with that study... much of his work is not reproducible and many of his assumptions and they were assumptions turns out have been discredited. I'm not sure if that was the study but a study that came out with similar conclusion to replicate the situation we would all have to be vaping happily on scorched cotton and coils.

If you mean Stanton Glantz, no, he didn't. Actually, it was our resident chemist Dr. Kurt Kiestler, PhD, and a friend of vaping who delivered a poster, among others, at that conference. His findings were rather startling. Please read at least the first two posts in @mikepetro 's thread when in doubt.

New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

Your information is incorrect and easily verifiable.

 

[Katya]

I have a separate new thread on asking how to set temp control on some kits I bought. (outcome: apparently I have the wrong tanks for that.)

Are you a MTL low-wattage vaper? I am and that's what I do--works every time: I build my ss coil close to 1Ω or less, set my wattage at 25W, temperature at 380°F or so, and take it from there. I try not to exceed 420°F for safety reasons. If you DL, you'll need higer wattage because you'll need more power to heat up your coil.

But maybe modern MOD vapes with safety regulators built in never get above 450 F in power mode anyway?

Nope. Besides, it's the temperature of your coil that matters; the first and second gen attys had almost no airflow (to cool the coil), poor wicking (again, nothing to cool the coil, and they used high gauge wires, which overheated very quickly even at very low wattages.

I'd love for that to be true, does anyone know?

Alas, it ain't. Get a good atomizer, with plenty of airflow, large(er) lower-gauge coils, good fast wicking and you'll be fine. Or use TC mode.

Good luck!

 

[AvaOrchid]

Who funded the study? I mean if you look at the way they did that study I still believe it's going to come up that is very hard to replicate in a real-world situation. While it's not scientific researches responsibility I believe that when these things are reported there should also be Focus on the fact that formaldehyde is only one of thousands of chemical compounds that are involved with cigarettes. The headline that e-cigarettes contain 10 times the amount of formaldehyde certainly gets people reading but it doesn't actually give them any good information to make any sort of decisions about their health. Anyone looking for zero risk should not be vaping they shouldn't be smoking probably shouldn't be breathing the ambient air. Nor should they be continuing to live as the human body produces 1.5 oz of formaldehyde a day which is rapidly metabolized out of your body. Simply focusing on formaldehyde production is a bit of a stretch as without formaldehyde a human body could not survive we've discovered amazing things about formaldehyde in the last 20 years and much of it indicates that we actually need formaldehyde. So I really do have to wonder as to why there's such a focus on formaldehyde I know that it's scary because people think embalming fluid they don't sink oh wait every biological thing produces formaldehyde as does many different processes that we all need to survive comfortably. I have to wonder who funds the studies and who decides formaldehyde is the ticket. Even if vaping produces 10 times the amount of formaldehyde as smoking does it still far less formaldehyde than your body produces naturally. Turns out that the majority of formaldehyde found in people's blood is it from their environment it's from inside their own body. So I do wonder why a friend of vaping would even choose to do such a study on something that has so little meaning.
A little thing about formaldehyde as I was surprised to learn that most people don't know that we produce it.
Formaldehyde Is So Dangerous That You'd Be Dead Without It
Also I still question whether in the real world you can replicate those results as I don't know the exact method that they determined them but I don't think they were via actual human inhalation or even a replication of such

 

[mikepetro]

Who funded the study? I mean if you look at the way they did that study I still believe it's going to come up that is very hard to replicate in a real-world situation. While it's not scientific researches responsibility I believe that when these things are reported there should also be Focus on the fact that formaldehyde is only one of thousands of chemical compounds that are involved with cigarettes. The headline that e-cigarettes contain 10 times the amount of formaldehyde certainly gets people reading but it doesn't actually give them any good information to make any sort of decisions about their health. Anyone looking for zero risk should not be vaping they shouldn't be smoking probably shouldn't be breathing the ambient air. Information is great information is necessary however it really does pay to destroy the e-cigarette industry for everyone across the board. Every living thing produces formaldehyde. It's not science has responsibility when doing research to compare and contrast and opine on the safety of a product but it sure would be nice if the media did that one reporting on that product I guess it's not going to matter because pretty soon all of this is going to be banned anyway

Please read my BLOGS where I reproduced these results in real-life conditions, actually vaping the mods while measuring. Also blogs showing formaldehyde at settings not uncommon.

mikepetro's blog | E-Cigarette Forum

You can indeed achieve high temps and high formaldehyde on simple mods in power mode, and formaldehyde develops BEFORE you taste anything burnt! I proved it myself, and I welcome anybody who wants to challenge my data or methods.

 

[mikepetro]

Who funded the study? I mean if you look at the way they did that study I still believe it's going to come up that is very hard to replicate in a real-world situation. While it's not scientific researches responsibility I believe that when these things are reported there should also be Focus on the fact that formaldehyde is only one of thousands of chemical compounds that are involved with cigarettes. The headline that e-cigarettes contain 10 times the amount of formaldehyde certainly gets people reading but it doesn't actually give them any good information to make any sort of decisions about their health. Anyone looking for zero risk should not be vaping they shouldn't be smoking probably shouldn't be breathing the ambient air. Nor should they be continuing to live as the human body produces 1.5 oz of formaldehyde a day which is rapidly metabolized out of your body. Simply focusing on formaldehyde production is a bit of a stretch as without formaldehyde a human body could not survive we've discovered amazing things about formaldehyde in the last 20 years and much of it indicates that we actually need formaldehyde. So I really do have to wonder as to why there's such a focus on formaldehyde I know that it's scary because people think embalming fluid they don't sink oh wait every biological thing produces formaldehyde as does many different processes that we all need to survive comfortably. I have to wonder who funds the studies and who decides formaldehyde is the ticket. Even if vaping produces 10 times the amount of formaldehyde as smoking does it still far less formaldehyde than your body produces naturally. Turns out that the majority of formaldehyde found in people's blood is it from their environment it's from inside their own body. So I do wonder why a friend of vaping would even choose to do such a study on something that has so little meaning.
A little thing about formaldehyde as I was surprised to learn that most people don't know that we produce it.
Formaldehyde Is So Dangerous That You'd Be Dead Without It
Also I still question whether in the real world you can replicate those results as I don't know the exact method that they determined them but I don't think they were via actual human inhalation or even a replication of such

So, here are my bottom line results, they were not nearly as severe as some of the unrealistic studies floating around.

• Below 440f vaping is relatively formaldehyde free (flavorings not included)
• Above 480f is appears that the 90\10 VG\DW was the safest, which makes perfect sense if you look at the boiling point which is 281f. Even 5% DW would lower the boiling point to 332f and be way below the danger zone.

Test Considerations:

• Tests were performed on accurate TC gear, these results wont directly apply to VV or VW gear because these tests were all "temperature based". It all still comes down to temperature. The amount of formaldehyde generated is a direct result of thermal degradation, the hotter you cook your juice the more formaldehyde you will get. However, the hottest of these tests were done at 500f, if you get much hotter than that you will start to taste "burnt" even if not yet in a dry hit situation. IMHO, if you arent tasting "burnt" (unless strong flavorings cover it up) then you are likely not exceeding the level of a cigarette.
• These test were done on modern gear. Older VV/VW gear might have more severe results due to juice flow inadequacies, and other unfavorable variables etc. Still, IMHO, if you arent tasting "burnt" then you are likely not exceeding the level of a cigarette.
• Formaldehyde was the only nasty tested here. Ecigs can have a few different nasties, but not nearly as many as the hundreds of nasties found in burnt tobacco that arent in vape.
• These tests were done using MTL conditions. I have no clue how they would correlate to DL hits. My gut tells me DL would be higher levels, especially if cloud chasing, simply because you are inhaling higher volumes (more mg) of juice per hit, so if nasties are present at a given temp you will get more of them.

I think that the Wang study was onto something. They documented the thermal degradation phenomena, and the temps that it occurs at. However their quantities were skewed vs vaping by not using real vape gear in real conditions. There are physics going on inside an atty that can only be reproduced in an actual atty.


Test Data:

The above results are inline with Dr Kurts study, however it is difficult to know what temperature he was running at various wattage settings. I would propose that his higher mg\g values were also higher temperatures.

My Testing:

Now multiply these values by how many puffs you take a day.

Again, the above results are inline with Dr Kurts study, however it is difficult to know what temperature he was running at various wattage settings. I would propose that his higher ug\puff values were also higher temperatures.

 

[AvaOrchid]

So, here are my bottom line results, they were not nearly as severe as some of the unrealistic studies floating around.

• Below 440f vaping is relatively formaldehyde free (flavorings not included)
• Above 480f is appears that the 90\10 VG\DW was the safest, which makes perfect sense if you look at the boiling point which is 281f. Even 5% DW would lower the boiling point to 332f and be way below the danger zone.

Test Considerations:

• Tests were performed on accurate TC gear, these results wont directly apply to VV or VW gear because these tests were all "temperature based". It all still comes down to temperature. The amount of formaldehyde generated is a direct result of thermal degradation, the hotter you cook your juice the more formaldehyde you will get. However, the hottest of these tests were done at 500f, if you get much hotter than that you will start to taste "burnt" even if not yet in a dry hit situation. IMHO, if you arent tasting "burnt" (unless strong flavorings cover it up) then you are likely not exceeding the level of a cigarette.
• These test were done on modern gear. Older VV/VW gear might have more severe results due to juice flow inadequacies, and other unfavorable variables etc. Still, IMHO, if you arent tasting "burnt" then you are likely not exceeding the level of a cigarette.
• Formaldehyde was the only nasty tested here. Ecigs can have a few different nasties, but not nearly as many as the hundreds of nasties found in burnt tobacco that arent in vape.
• These tests were done using MTL conditions. I have no clue how they would correlate to DL hits. My gut tells me DL would be higher levels, especially if cloud chasing, simply because you are inhaling higher volumes (more mg) of juice per hit, so if nasties are present at a given temp you will get more of them.

I think that the Wang study was onto something. They documented the thermal degradation phenomena, and the temps that it occurs at. However their quantities were skewed vs vaping by not using real vape gear in real conditions. There are physics going on inside an atty that can only be reproduced in an actual atty.


Test Data:

The above results are inline with Dr Kurts study, however it is difficult to know what temperature he was running at various wattage settings. I would propose that his higher mg\g values were also higher temperatures.

My Testing:

Now multiply these values by how many puffs you take a day.

Again, the above results are inline with Dr Kurts study, however it is difficult to know what temperature he was running at various wattage settings. I would propose that his higher ug\puff values were also higher temperatures.

Wow!.. okay. Thank you so much that really puts it in perspective. You know I'm worried that I sounded as though I didn't want to hear negative things pertaining to e-cigarettes which isn't true. I feel it's imperative that people have as much information as they possibly can so that they can make good choices for themselves. I know that science has to do what science does without regard to any sort of bias (at least in a perfect world). My concern is more what the media will make of it. Which is out of the hands of science to some degree but I do feel that adding a little comparison when you know that your study is going to be digested by the General Public (as opposed to peer review etc) would be a great way of making sure that everyone understands what you're really talking about. It's sad but the responsibility
to make certain that their studies are not manipulated and used in a way that was never intended is falling upon the researchers. There's spin doctoring being done that makes it seem one way or another even when it's in contradiction of the actual conclusion. And of course that shouldn't be the responsibility of those doing the study to make sure everyone reports accurately and with perspective however we've seen in so many different subjects that if the study doesn't make it very clear that no one else will and other Industries and individuals will use that data how they see fit to try and draw whatever conclusions they wish to draw.

 

[mikepetro]

You are right to be skeptical. So many studies are presented, often funded by anti-vape, that paint a horrible picture. The first thing I look at when a new study is published is who funded it.

Most of the studies out there were done by non-vapers, as in they really didnt understand nor try to replicate the many variables involved with vaping. IMHO the only way to accurately measure vaping is to use actual vaping gear under lifelike conditions.

There are some folks in the scientific community who are starting to "get it", and they are developing testing methods that realistically simulate vaping. Unfortunately the data from these studies has become very proprietary and held as a closely guarded secret. The reason being is that the realistic studies are being done by folks who want to use it as a data to submit a PMTA and try to get their product approved by the FDA. These folks dont want to publish their data publicly because then the competition might also use it. Its all about the $$.

There are lots of variables involved in vaping, very few published tests consider them, let alone try to simulate them.

Remember, higher temps = more formaldehyde:

 

[CMD-Ky]

You are right to be skeptical. So many studies are presented, often funded by anti-vape, that paint a horrible picture. The first thing I look at when a new study is published is who funded it.

Sadly, I do the same regardless of the subject matter. It seems that everything is subject to political divisions, my trust level in 'studies' is at an all time low.
Based upon your work, I did move exclusively to 90/10 VG/DI water. I don't vary that summer or winter. On rare occasions, I will put a drop of a flavored commercial liquid down the drip tip of a bottom feeder atomizer.

 

[stols001]

Skepticism is useful. I have so many setups going the only time I will chain vape on a tiny little MTL vape too much is when I am shopping online for some reason. Otherwise, I rotate my setups before they get super hot. I mean, I really rotate my setups, LOL.

I like a cool vape, warm vapor can get me to coughing. I'm reasonably satisfied my vapes aren't producing formaldehyde.

But here's the thing I used to vape almost MAX vg in two tiny little setups, and I STILL improved, and my lungs STILL got better. When I went in for the COVID testing at the hospital they told me the scarring on my lungs from like 18 months of pneumonia was GONE. Better. Healed up somehow.

I'm not gonna argue with those results, really. My doc told me it would be permanent. I guess vaping told my lungs otherwise. LOL.

I will use TC occasionally like if I am going somewhere with few vapes-- most of the time I don't need it.

Anna