Can You Overcharge A Battery?

[ApOsTle51]

However your first intial charge should be 8-12 hours so that the battery becomes fully charged so that the battery can accept a 'full charge.' This is the case for any rechargeable battery. ..

nope..initial 8hour charge is not required for Lithium cells. Manufacturers for some reason still state they do , but thats just simply incorrect.

The 8 hour thing is from older NiMh and NiCd cells , which did require the longer initial charge to "set" the memory effect.

Lithium cells DO NOT SUFFER FROM MEMORY EFFECT so do not require a memory "set".

When the light goes green , your good to go. Leaving it to charge any longer just increases the likelyhood of the overcharge protection circuitry failing.

Also Lithium cells are best stored at nominal voltage ie 3.7volts and not at 40% charge.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/new-members-forum/8852-li-ion-batteries-truth.html

 

[Nicfits]

I thought that I had read somewhere that if a protected battery is stacked with another protected battery it looses its protection. Does anybody know if this is true?

There are so many claims on batteries and with its chargers that it is totally confusing.

Some batteries claim to have dedicated chargers that cannot be used with any other battery. Is this true? I understand that the voltage of batteries should be used in chargers that are made for that voltage but I've also read that a battery and charger combination with a particular mah should not be used to charge a battery with a different mah. Is this true?

Some batteries, Like the 18650s are designed to work as a single cell, and are not to be used in pack building. Others can be used in series. It all depends on how the protection circuit PCB was designed. Some Li-Ions don't come with PCBs, you can also buy PCBs seperate from the batteries and incorporate them into your circuit. It is not recommended to charge certain batteries like the LiFeP04 3.0 volt RCR123s with a conventional 3.7 volt Li-Ion charger, though it will propbably charge the battery, it is said that they will not charge properly. These LiFeP04 batteries have an initial 3.7 peak charge voltage, but it's builtin protection circuit has a voltage regulator that cuts the voltage down to 3.0 to 3.2 volts within 12milliseconds. They can be used in series and are found to be used in common two cell LED flashlights. But due to the builtin voltage regulator, it would be my recommendation to only use the battery specific charger.

 

[Nicfits]

Also Lithium cells are best stored at nominal voltage ie 3.7volts and not at 40% charge.

Here is a quote from Is lithium-ion the ideal battery?

"Storage in a cool place slows the aging process of lithium-ion (and other chemistries). Manufacturers recommend storage temperatures of 15°C (59°F). In addition, the battery should be partially charged during storage. The manufacturer recommends a 40% charge."


Edit: I am talking about Lithium Ion, not regular lithium batteries, which are to my understanding, not rechargeable.

 

[trog100]

lithium battery protection circuits stop the cell being over charged... a 3.6/7 cell will switch off the charge at around 4.2 volts... the cell comes off the charger at around 4.2 volts.. light goes green.. charge stops..

a proper lithium cell charger for the 3.6/7 cells will also switch the charge off at around 4.2 volts.. light goes green.. charge stops..

a protected cell is also protected as regards being run too flat.. the circuit switches off the cell at around 2.7 volts.. the cell acts like it is fully flat but it isnt.. its simply switched off...

a 3 volt cell comes off the charger at around 3.7 volts... the protection circuit does the same as the other cell except at roughly half a volt lower figures.. most smaller 3 volt cells are not protected and the charger for the higher voltage cells should not be used..

in use lithium ion cells behave much like alkaline cells.. as they run down the cell voltage simply gets lower.. there is no nominal voltage.. they start off at 4.2 volts and the voltage from the battery gets lower until the user decides they have had enough or the protection circuit switches them off at around 2.7 volts..

the rated voltage is false.. its just a mid point figure the battery arrive at during its discharge period.. two so called 3 volt cells in series would start off at 7.2 volts not 6.. two so called 3.7 ones in series would start off at 8.4 volts not 7.4..

this can matter with some things but not e cigs..

e cig ones have the protection built in to the battery tube not in the charger..

the cells do not self discharge and should come with plenty of charge in them.. they do not need to be "conditioned" they do not have any memory effect..

you can just use them.. things like the 12 hours initial charge are the first line in the customer help line "idiot" customer defence.. my e cig dont work.. did you charge the battery kind of stuff..

larger lithium ion cells can be dangerous.. i had one explode in my pocket the other day.. it set my pants pocket on fire and caused me to hop around the room somewhat.. its also caused a nasty burn on my leg..

what caused it.. carrying a spare fully charged cell in my pocket with some keys and loose change.. a direct short was caused when i lent against a work bench.. the cell got red hot and really did f-cking explode..

i often carry the spare cell.. but not the loose change.. have a laff.. what caused me to create the deadly mix.. my other pocket developed a hole in it... i bought something with cash instead of plastic.. a perfect example of the chaos theory or how fate sometimes sets out to get you... he he

i hate to think what a larger 18650 type cell would have done.. or one of the super large D 6000 mah sized ones i have..

never carry loose cells in your pocket.. always put them in something..

lithium rechargable battery technology aint a %100 safe technology.. some user knowledge is desirable..

i have destruction tested these things.. i have never made one go bang.. except when the bugger was in my pocket and it wasnt intended to... he he

trog

ps.. some places that sell lithium cells carry this legal disclaimer.. "always charge outside in a fire proof box".. i dont but such a disclaimer does exist.. in certain circumstances they can catch fire..

 

[Glock]

Thanks for the info Trog...

So, I think it is clear that you can use them straight out of the box and the 8-hour charge is not necessary (I may still do this just because of it being in the manual). You were also clear that you do not need to condition (does that mean no need for a couple of complete initial charge cycles?)...

Most battery sites recommend running through (3) complete initial charge cycles with lithium-ion (e.g. use/deplete, charge fully, use/deplete, charge fully, etc.) before simply throwing on the charger whenever you are near one. After these initial (3) cycles it then o.k. to just basically charge whenever and recommended that you do not deep cycle. Is this initial (3) complete charge cycles a fallacy as well?

As far as draining the battery too low or not deep cycling, I would think we are o.k. to continue complete charge cycles since it never drains below say 20% anyways due to the built in cut-off circuit? In other words it is no big deal if the low battery light comes on before charging each time as this is not really a deep cycle? Or should we try to get them on the charger before they get to the point of the circuit kicking in (e.g. better for battery life to throw back on at 40% to 50%)?

Man between my wife and my e-cigs and 4-batteries each (and another 4 waiting to be called to duty) and not to mention all the other devices with batteries it would be nice to know that I can just charge whenever I get to it.

Getting through these "complete charge cycles" is crazy and I have only been trying to get (1) 8-hour charge and then a couple of complete 4-hour cycles (now I might have even lost track of where I was with a battery or two, LOL).

So is it a good idea to run a couple (or even one anyway if not three) initial complete cycles (I figure what can it hurt)?

Is it a bad idea to use the e-cig battery to the point the LED flashes battery low each time (would you consider this a deep cycle and not good for battery life)?

Should/can we ignore the initial 8-hour charge and just charge until the light goes green (this one is tough since it is in the manual and I hate to think of myself as smarter than the manufacturer)?

You sir, must have vast knowledge on this stuff and I respect any insight you provide.

 

[RickB]

Thanks for the info Trog...

So, I think it is clear that you can use them straight out of the box and the 8-hour charge is not necessary (I may still do this just because of it being in the manual). You were also clear that you do not need to condition (does that mean no need for a couple of complete initial charge cycles?)...
A) Yes you are correct. You do not need to cycle charge. You're only wasting cycles.
Most battery sites recommend running through (3) complete initial charge cycles with lithium-ion (e.g. use/deplete, charge fully, use/deplete, charge fully, etc.) before simply throwing on the charger whenever you are near one. After these initial (3) cycles it then o.k. to just basically charge whenever and recommended that you do not deep cycle. Is this initial (3) complete charge cycles a fallacy as well?
A) Read answer above. Also there is no way to deep cycle unless you bypass the built in protection.

As far as draining the battery too low or not deep cycling, I would think we are o.k. to continue complete charge cycles since it never drains below say 20% anyways due to the built in cut-off circuit? In other words it is no big deal if the low battery light comes on before charging each time as this is not really a deep cycle? Or should we try to get them on the charger before they get to the point of the circuit kicking in (e.g. better for battery life to throw back on at 40% to 50%)?
A) Feel free to take them down to the blinking light. That's what the low voltage cut off is there for. Plus there is probably a little bit of headroom built in so the e-cig will not even work if it gets below say 3v.

Man between my wife and my e-cigs and 4-batteries each (and another 4 waiting to be called to duty) and not to mention all the other devices with batteries it would be nice to know that I can just charge whenever I get to it.

A) Go for it

Getting through these "complete charge cycles" is crazy and I have only been trying to get (1) 8-hour charge and then a couple of complete 4-hour cycles (now I might have even lost track of where I was with a battery or two, LOL).

So is it a good idea to run a couple (or even one anyway if not three) initial complete cycles (I figure what can it hurt)?

A) Other than a little time and using a couple of the finite cycles, nothing.
Question, how are you discharging your batteries in order to cycle them?
If you are just using your e-cig then your not really cycling them, your just using them as intended.

Is it a bad idea to use the e-cig battery to the point the LED flashes battery low each time (would you consider this a deep cycle and not good for battery life)?
A) No, Go nuts

Should/can we ignore the initial 8-hour charge and just charge until the light goes green (this one is tough since it is in the manual and I hate to think of myself as smarter than the manufacturer)?

A) Yes

You sir, must have vast knowledge on this stuff and I respect any insight you provide.

Vap"em if you got'em

 

[dopple]

even more fun... i had a 801 battery that shorted out due to a broken atomizer, so what do i do? the fun thing! i take the cap off the light end, pull out the LED board, move the wires out of the way, and puncture the cell with a sharp nail... immediate ROCKET about 1000 ft into the air.... VERY cool... till it landed and i made the mistake of trying to pick it up off the lawn.... it probably heated itself to about 400 degrees.. immediate burn. but it was fun!

larger lithium ion cells can be dangerous.. i had one explode in my pocket the other day.. it set my pants pocket on fire and caused me to hop around the room somewhat.. its also caused a nasty burn on my leg..

what caused it.. carrying a spare fully charged cell in my pocket with some keys and loose change.. a direct short was caused when i lent against a work bench.. the cell got red hot and really did f-cking explode..

 

[Glock]

Thank you very much for your response RickB.

That about clears it up for me...

Stupid as it is I tend to do as the manual says for the first charge, just because it says so even knowing the charge is done when the charger turns off (e.g. cell phones, etc.). Peace of mind, I guess.

Good to know that I don't have to stop and charge early to avoid deep cycles or worry about conditioning the battery, etc... I'll just put one good full first charge on them, but use them first if I need to, and then just charge whenever is clever.

///Cheers

 

[hyperdeficit]

One trick I use with my cell phone is

When it stops charging because it is fully charged, I unplug it, then plug it back in
it will then continue to charge for about two hours I have done this with three different cell phones and on MY phone I get about an extra four hours of battery

could you do this with the e cig battery

 

[yokidd20]

no, and I am adding fluff because my message is too short. But like I said no.

 

[trog100]

metal hydride cells benefit from being left on overnight.. the auto chargers often switch off long before they should.. these chargers do go into a slow trickle mode.. lithium chargers do not.. the cell voltage is detected accurately and the charge is stopped accurately..

metal hydride cells need some cycling before they give their best.. lithium cells dont..

the problem with battery information is "copy and paste"... in fact the problem with the internet is "copy and paste"...

the other main forum problem is the people that run them lack technical knowledge.... this thread should for example be stickied..

mods should have technical knowledge.. the ability to know whats valid information and what isnt.. valid information should be stickied.. misinformation should be noted as such..

this thread will be gone off the front page in no time flat.. no one learns anything.. sad really...

trog

 

[Rexa]

metal hydride cells benefit from being left on overnight.. the auto chargers often switch off long before they should.. these chargers do go into a slow trickle mode.. lithium chargers do not.. the cell voltage is detected accurately and the charge is stopped accurately..

metal hydride cells need some cycling before they give their best.. lithium cells dont..

the problem with battery information is "copy and paste"... in fact the problem with the internet is "copy and paste"...

the other main forum problem is the people that run them lack technical knowledge.... this thread should for example be stickied..

mods should have technical knowledge.. the ability to know whats valid information and what isnt.. valid information should be stickied.. misinformation should be noted as such..

this thread will be gone off the front page in no time flat.. no one learns anything.. sad really...

trog

Trog i love you! Yesterday at work I left my SD battery plugged in and I forgot about it until I came home. I was actually wondering today if the battery would be alright. Thanks for putting my thoughts at ease I don't know squat about battery technology. I was checking out the SD forum but I "ran away" after a minute of seeing porn spam all over the place I know you deleted those threads thank goodness.

 

[RickB]

Just to be clear, You SHOULD be able to leave the battery on the charger without
any issues. But, no one here is telling anyone to do that. There is always the possibility of
catastrophic failure. Either by the circuit in the battery or the charger. Before I go to bed
I always throw whichever battery I've been using on the charger overnight so I know that I have a fresh one in the A.M. to start the day. But that is just me and a risk I am willing to take.

 

[trog100]

Just to be clear, You SHOULD be able to leave the battery on the charger without
any issues. But, no one here is telling anyone to do that. There is always the possibility of
catastrophic failure. Either by the circuit in the battery or the charger. Before I go to bed
I always throw whichever battery I've been using on the charger overnight so I know that I have a fresh one in the A.M. to start the day. But that is just me and a risk I am willing to take.

the little secret is not to charger the batteries near flammable things..

do it on a flat surface... hard topped table or bench.. wall plugs can shoot across the room.. just use a little common sense..

the risk is small.. but for the genuinely paranoid.. charge outside in the flame proof box..

we have twenty or so lithium cells on test charge all the time.. i have tried to make them do bad things.. put them in the charger the wrong way around.. run them too flat.. i cant make them show any signs of distress..

not until i put one in my pocket with the loose change... he he he

as i say the risk is small... a few simple precaution should make it pretty well none existent..

trog

 

[Glock]

metal hydride cells benefit from being left on overnight.. the auto chargers often switch off long before they should.. these chargers do go into a slow trickle mode.. lithium chargers do not.. the cell voltage is detected accurately and the charge is stopped accurately..

metal hydride cells need some cycling before they give their best.. lithium cells dont..

the problem with battery information is "copy and paste"... in fact the problem with the internet is "copy and paste"...

the other main forum problem is the people that run them lack technical knowledge.... this thread should for example be stickied..

mods should have technical knowledge.. the ability to know whats valid information and what isnt.. valid information should be stickied.. misinformation should be noted as such..

this thread will be gone off the front page in no time flat.. no one learns anything.. sad really...

trog

soooooo true.

I often post about something hoping to enlighten or help others only to see the same discussion taking place in another thread and/or sub-form with disinformation. Most of the time I am like screw it I tried...

And then even when they are stickied. A lot of people never even look at the stickies and keep asking the same questions over and over again and then disinformation follows.

If you point these members to the stickies or suggest a search they usually get offended and want to hash out the same discussion again only in this one, the posters with real knowledge are tired of stating the same thing over and over again.

In the end if you are diligent and don't trust everything you read and search out other possible discussions and then make your own decision, you might be o.k. It seems too many people ask a question get an answer (even if wrong) and run with it without looking any further.

Granted it takes a lot of time to dig out the right information. The good and bad of Internet forums and all the information so readily available at our keyboards.

There is a ton of good information out there that just gets buried under erroneous information.

The solution might be to spend time researching more than one thread, but don't suggest that or you will be demanded to just answer their question or stay out of the thread. That your useless comment to suggest a search or a FAQ sticky is some sort of noob slam.

Thanks for all the info on these batteries Trog, RickB and others that contributed. This answers a ton of concerns with batteries in general...

 

[hgielm1]

I've seen warnings that leaving a battery screwed into the charger for periods of time can be dangerous and even cause fires. How long do you all leave them charging, and do you know of any problems? I mostly just leave mine in the charger overnight, but sometimes longer.

 

[Elendil]

I've seen warnings that leaving a battery screwed into the charger for periods of time can be dangerous and even cause fires. How long do you all leave them charging, and do you know of any problems? I mostly just leave mine in the charger overnight, but sometimes longer.

This is my opinion only: I think all the "danger Will Robinson" stuff surrounding batteries in chargers is way overblown. Before I get slammed................yes, I am sure there have cases of an accident, but so have there been accidents with a toaster or microwave starting a fire as well, and I sure don't unplug every appliance in my house every night. I just have some really good and loud smoke detectors...........

 

[Sun Vaporer]

I've seen warnings that leaving a battery screwed into the charger for periods of time can be dangerous and even cause fires. How long do you all leave them charging, and do you know of any problems? I mostly just leave mine in the charger overnight, but sometimes longer.

Karen--best to error on the side of caution and but a timer on the charger set for 5 hours--then there are no issues------Sun

 

[Nicfits]

It is recomend that Lithium Ions should be charged in an area that is not likely to start a fire, and should not be left unattended. That being said, these battery specific chargers have a built in cut off, PCB protected, as well as the battery. The charger will stop charging once optimal voltage has been achieved.

 

[Nicfits]

Karen--best to error on the side of caution and but a timer on the charger set for 5 hours--then there are no issues------Sun

That's a great idea Sun.