Capella's Vanilla Custard - Report from ABC Consulting & Testing (via Tom)

[Jonathan Tittle]

I posted this in another thread, though since that specific thread was about a vendors e-liquid, I wanted to post this in a new thread so it'd be easier to find and properly labeled.

Since many of us like Capella's Vanilla Custard, I wanted to share a report I found which was requested by Tom from Capella's from ABC Consulting & Testing, an independent lab. They tested a sample of the flavoring and reported back < .4%. Since I'm not a chemist, I browsed a little more and found another member who spoke with a fellow chemist that works on energy drink formulations who noted that this specific number was a tolerance in which chemists work in and it indicated that Diacetyl was in fact not present.

That said, if Diacetyl is not present, one or both of the other two chemicals most likely are (acetoin and/or acetyl propionyl). Since the only report I found on the forum was from a competing vendor, I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt given Capella's claim that it does not contain diacetyl is on their website specifically for this flavor.

This doesn't mean it's still 100% safe to vape, just to be clear - we don't know that for sure about any of the flavorings we use and I don't claim it to be. Just posting for information and research purposes.

 

[we2rcool]

I can appreciate wanting to give someone/vendor the benefit of the doubt...but almost 1/2 percent of anything is not 'a tolerance' to be trivialized...it's a measured amount of a very harmful chemical (that may be inhaled more directly & deeply than those working in popcorn factories)

Whatever is in it...it acts like diacetyl, scorches/irritates our lungs like diacetyl, and tastes like everything else we've tasted with diacetyl. And there's a LOT of ECFers that can't vape it (or can only vape it in very small quantities).

 

[shynsly]

Well that report is from over two years ago... how do we know that is still the case?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

I can appreciate wanting to give someone/vendor the benefit of the doubt...but almost 1/2 percent of anything is not 'a tolerance' to be trivialized...it's a measured amount of a very harmful chemical (that may be inhaled more directly & deeply than those working in popcorn factories)

Whatever is in it...it acts like diacetyl, scorches/irritates our lungs like diacetyl, and tastes like everything else we've tasted with diacetyl. And there's a LOT of ECFers that can't vape it (or can only vape it in very small quantities).

If it were present and in trace amounts, like most would read it to be, the actual amount would be well below .4%. The information came directly from an upload that was provided by Tom to another member who shared it a while back as others, like some of the members here, were concerned.

The tolerance information was provided by another member who claimed to have spoken to an actual chemist. From what I've seen in other chemical reports, the ND stands for Not Detected followed by less than .4%. The note was that this is the tolerances in which chemists normally work, so the note of < .4% meant that it was not present or undetected in the sample.

As above, I'm not a chemist. I found the report and having seen it was from Tom and signed off on by the chemist (I can provide the signature if needed), I wanted to share it.

Well that report is from over two years ago... how do we know that is still the case?

Given that it's such a popular flavor and many larger name e-liquids supposedly use it, I'd think if changes had be made, others would have noticed. That's not to say it hasn't been in two years, but with the likes of Grants Vanilla Custard supposedly using it (I've never tried his), I think it'd be more noticeable.



That said, Grant, of Grant's Vanilla Custard, supposedly sent his e-liquid in for testing as well, as per his website. The report back was that it contained no known inhalation risks, so if Diacetyl was indeed present, I'd think he'd also be one to know about it.

 

[we2rcool]

'Not gonna debate around this one - the fact is that this topic is like our favorite bumper sticker "I don't know and you don't either".

Capella's VC is the most buttery/creamy flavorful VC on the market...and there are many reports & experiences (including our own), that indicate clearly that something in it is a lung/bronchial/throat irritant. There's "evidence" on both sides.

Everybody can do and believe whatever they'd like to do and believe - no problem there.

Us? We don't trust 'modern science & chemistry' (particularly not any 'three letter agency') to determine what is safe or unsafe...and we're certainly not going to trust anyone with a financial interest in the deal. Perhaps if 'modern science' would do a TRULY VALID study on long-term effects on vaping humans (while controlling all the possible variables), we could put some trust there.

In the meantime, if it acts walks like a health-threatening duck, acts like a duck, quacks like a duck (and vapes like a duck) -- and we don't have any true need for what just might be a health-threatening duck...then we're going to minimize or avoid it (and respectfully post our opinion when we disagree with people surmising it might be safe).

Making an informed choice is what we all should do. Clearly examining all sides of the issue is what makes a choice "informed"

We2rcool - and so are you!

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Us? We don't trust 'modern science & chemistry' (particularly not any 'three letter agency') to determine what is safe or unsafe...and we're certainly not going to trust anyone with a financial interest in the deal. Perhaps if 'modern science' would do a TRULY VALID study on long-term effects on vaping humans (while controlling all the possible variables), we could put some trust there.

I don't put much trust into the FDA any more than you or the vast majority that know how idiotic most of the things that they approve are, so I agree with you there. No arguments . With Chantix and other drugs on the market, which bear FDA-Approval, that's honestly enough to make anyone shiver given the horrible results from reports, yet they still claim it's safe.

As far as financials go, Diacetyl isn't going to break Capella's since they're not made for vaping in the first place, but I would put a little more trust in a well-known vendor, who relies on income from sales, to do the right thing. It doesn't mean he is or always will, but if Capella's does indeed have even trace amounts of Diacetyl, that could spell out end-game for many custard based liquids, including GVC. Especially if once everything is said and done, should the FDA get their hands on a little bit of control. It would also be false advertising on his part, which could lead to a lot of legal trouble down the road, should the report on his website be incorrect and someone get sick. Buyers could easily claim they're basing their purchase off his claims and win with little to no dispute. For a small business, that'd be the death of it.

In regards to science, I trust what I know. I'm not a chemist, but independent labs not funded by the government really have nothing to gain by altering the results of a test report, so I do trust the numbers that are on the report, but that's me. I feel the report gives us a better option to choose what we want to do. Vaping is not 100% safe, it's just a safer alternative, and I do agree - I too would like to see a few long-term studies with some sort of control, so as not to harm the individuals participating, but I think that's a little ways out and we're more likely to see regulation before we see scientific study that fully validates vaping as the go-to as an alternative to smoking.

I'm all for gathering as much information as possible, which is one of the reasons I posted the report. I felt the other post was a bit one-sided and no-one else was stepping up. I have nothing to gain either way, I just personally like the flavor and would like to consciously enjoy it without the thought of Diacetyl being present lingering in the back of my head as I vape .

That said, no arguments on my end - we all have a choice and I don't think bad of anyone for choosing to vape or not to vape a flavor. There's so many choice, nobody should be forced to one, or even just a few!

 

[Thunderball]

I learned a long ago about the "fat free" joke labeling on as instructed by the FDA. If a serving has less than .5% fat, it can be labeled as fat free. So, as is human nature, manufacturors made sure to divide a box or can of something into enough servings so they can say its fat free. 15 servings in a box of something can be extreamly close to 7.5 grams of fat.

It sounds like the same thing is happening here.

 

[twgbonehead]

The notation:

ND <0.4%

Means:
"Not detected. The lowest level this test can detect is 0.4%"

So it does NOT mean it was detected at 0.4%, that's just the lower limits of the capability of the test performed.

(In other words, there could be anywhere from 0% to somewhat less than 0.4% present. I'd be willing to believe the vendor's claim that the number was 0%, and the test does not contradict this)

 

[HeadInClouds]

I think it's time to move along to the next level of questions.

1. This lab test simply did not look for concentrations under 0.4%. This sample could have 0%, could have 0.39%. You could have more precise testing done. Is it necessary? Well:

2. If a manufacturer claims they add no diacetyl, there's little reason to doubt it. Blatant lying about ingredients would risk business license and reputation, and it could expose them to lawsuits. Substitutes are available now and widely used - thus there is little incentive to use diacetyl and deny it. But:

3. Question the substitutes - then this discussion becomes relevant again. Research shows acetoin and acetyl propionyl DO have inhalation risks, similar to diacetyl. They provide little to no improvement as far as our usage is concerned. Using them allows a manufacturer to advertise "diacetyl-free" (convincing many vapers it's safe) and maintain similar taste, so there IS incentive for manufacturers to use these two substitutes. Diacetyl-free does not mean safe. So:

4. A few manufacturers test for acetoin and acetyl propionyl as well and even provide their lab reports. Think twice before inhaling flavors by manufacturers who do NOT acknowledge vaping. They can profit from vaping purchases while avoiding liability, just by adding a disclaimer: 'for food use only.' With that they avoid all need to test for, remove, or substitute any food-safe molecules...and the health effects and full liability are on the shoulders of the consumer who inhales them.

The takeaway: if it says "diacetyl-free" it probably is, but that is not enough; "custard notes"/related diketones/acetyl-substitutes are also known hazards. If you avoid diacetyl, avoid them, too - or be aware you're inhaling a known hazard and accepting full liability.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

For questions about substitutes, such as Acetoin, I'd get in touch with the guys over at NudeNicotine. They seem to be very knowledgeable and they actually use Acetoin in some of their flavorings in place of what would normally be used (i.e. Diacetyl). They seem to have done their research and while, again, that doesn't make it 100% safe, they should be able to shed some light on Acetoin's use.

From the description of acetoin in the white papers in the link provided by Jake, acetoin is most likely what is in Capella's Vanilla Custard in place of Diacetyl.



You can confirm this by reading Jakes' post here on ECF below.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...y-related-questions-here-20.html#post11932579

Acetoin is our go-to in place of diacetyl. Our diligent research over the course of our history in business from FDA releases and peer-reviewed papers from inhalation studies lead us to place the carcinogenic and cytotoxic effects of butter/custard flavors on the diacetyl molecule. Here's a quick reference, but let me see if I can pull up and good amount more and do a big 'dump' of info in this thread

I think it's time to move along to the next level of questions.

1. This lab test simply did not look for concentrations under 0.4%. This sample could have 0%, could have 0.39%. You could have more precise testing done. Is it necessary? Well:

2. If a manufacturer claims they add no diacetyl, there's little reason to doubt it. Blatant lying about ingredients would risk business license and reputation, and it could expose them to lawsuits. Substitutes are available now and widely used - thus there is little incentive to use diacetyl and deny it. But:

3. Question the substitutes - then this discussion becomes relevant again. Research shows acetoin and acetyl propionyl DO have inhalation risks, similar to diacetyl. They provide little to no improvement as far as our usage is concerned. Using them allows a manufacturer to advertise "diacetyl-free" (convincing many vapers it's safe) and maintain similar taste, so there IS incentive for manufacturers to use these two substitutes. Diacetyl-free does not mean safe. So:

4. A few manufacturers test for acetoin and acetyl propionyl as well and even provide their lab reports. Think twice before inhaling flavors by manufacturers who do NOT acknowledge vaping. They can profit from vaping purchases while avoiding liability, just by adding a disclaimer: 'for food use only.' With that they avoid all need to test for, remove, or substitute any food-safe molecules...and the health effects and full liability are on the shoulders of the consumer who inhales them.

The takeaway: if it says "diacetyl-free" it probably is, but that is not enough; "custard notes"/related diketones/acetyl-substitutes are also known hazards. If you avoid diacetyl, avoid them, too - or be aware you're inhaling a known hazard and accepting full liability.

 

[mcraig]

I've been wondering about this flavor for a bit too. Surely there is a chemist around these forums that could run this flavor through a GC/MS. Right? Wish I was still in school or I would do it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[we2rcool]

Acetoin is our go-to in place of diacetyl. Our diligent research over the course of our history in business from FDA releases and peer-reviewed papers from inhalation studies lead us to place the carcinogenic and cytotoxic effects of butter/custard flavors on the diacetyl molecule. Here's a quick reference, but let me see if I can pull up and good amount more and do a big 'dump' of info in this thread

http://ntp.niehs.nih.gov/ntp/htdocs/chem_background/exsumpdf/artificial_butter_flavoring.pdf

From that link:
-- Artificial butter flavoring and two important constituents, diacetyl and acetoin, were nominated by the United Food and Commercial Workers International Union (UFCW) for long-term testing via inhalation for respiratory and other toxicity and for cancer-causing properties
-- To date, limited toxicological studies are available for artificial butter flavoring and its constituents.
-- No short-term/subchronic or chronic inhalation studies were available for artificial butter flavorings,
diacetyl, or acetoin. Additionally, data regarding initiation/promotion, anticarcinogenicity, and immunotoxicity were not found.
-- No acute inhalation studies for acetoin were available.

So where IS the adequate/actual valid research proving any of these 'custard/butter notes' are safe to VAPE (inhaling these chemicals mixed with vg/pg/nic/other chemicals into the lungs of short/long term smokers for a 8-10 hours per day for several months - with adequate controls)? We keep hearing 'based on research', but we keep not seeing anything that comes close to resembling actual VAPING.

 

[HeadInClouds]

So where IS the adequate/actual valid research proving any of these 'custard/butter notes' are safe to VAPE ... [/U]

Recent studies indicate the substitutes being used have the same health dangers as diacetyl.
Link to abstract of late-2013 study: Evaluation of the hypersensitivity potenti... [Food Chem Toxicol. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
and the text:

Concern has been raised over the association of diacetyl with lung disease clinically resembling bronchiolitis obliterans in food manufacturing workers. This has resulted in the need for identification of alternative chemicals to be used in the manufacturing process. Structurally similar chemicals, 2,3-pentanedione, 2,3-hexanedione, 3,4-hexanedione and 2,3-heptanedione, used as constituents of synthetic flavoring agents have been suggested as potential alternatives for diacetyl, however, immunotoxicity data on these chemicals are limited. The present study evaluated the dermal irritation and sensitization potential of diacetyl alternatives using a murine model. None of the chemicals were identified as dermal irritants when tested at concentrations up to 50%. Similar to diacetyl (EC3=17.9%), concentration-dependent increases in lymphocyte proliferation were observed following exposure to all four chemicals, with calculated EC3 values of 15.4% (2,3-pentanedione), 18.2% (2,3-hexanedione), 15.5% (3,4-hexanedione) and 14.1% (2,3-heptanedione). No biologically significant elevations in local or total serum IgE were identified after exposure to 25-50% concentrations of these chemicals. These results demonstrate the potential for development of hypersensitivity responses to these proposed alternative butter flavorings and raise concern about the use of structurally similar replacement chemicals. Additionally, a contaminant with strong sensitization potential was found in varying concentrations in diacetyl obtained from different producers.

 

[shanagan]

As part of the original serious push to get juice vendors to stop using diacetyl, I'm back to vaping and actually kind of stunned to find this is still an issue.

Are other diketones commonly used (anything ending in "dione" seems to be a bad idea) and as always, how best to avoid them?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

As part of the original serious push to get juice vendors to stop using diacetyl, I'm back to vaping and actually kind of stunned to find this is still an issue.

Are other diketones commonly used (anything ending in "dione" seems to be a bad idea) and as always, how best to avoid them?

As far as Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl, the alternatives to Diacetyl, the only way juice vendors are going to absolutely stop using flavors with those chemicals is to find cold, hard evidence that it's going to do damage comparable to or on the level that Diacetyl can or may - why? Look at how many custard-based juices there are and think about how large a chunk of Vendor X's business it is (some exclusively sell only custard, some have lines based off modified versions of said custard). The inhalation reports on Diacetyl are those form long-term exposure in a fairly concentrated work environment, so what those workers were in fact inhaling was by far more concentrated that what we do in the smaller percentages used to develop DIY and retail/wholesale products, IMO.

I'm not saying Diacetyl is good, far from it. It poses a severe risk, though at the same time, years ago (1980's, 1990's and the start of 2000) we didn't have such stringent filtration and clean-air policies intact. So workers would work without masks, without the better filters we have today, in extreme temperatures (some factories I know for a fact used to run in the 100-120F range - no AC), ect. What they inhaled was on a day-in day-out bases, and on a constant basis unless they stepped outside for a break and breath of fresh air. Exposure to any chemical that can potentially harm the human body or organs could cause the same ill-effects when you literally breath it in and breath it out for 8-12 hours a day.

Comparing this to vaping, we may chain vape for 5 minutes, and not vape again for 30-45 minutes. We may take a few puffs here and there, we may vape solid for 10-20 minutes, but the concentrations in the flavors we vape are no-where near what these workers were most likely exposed to since they're dealing with chemicals direct - not pre-diluted like we are from a bottle of flavoring.


Does that mean that either of the 3 are safe to vape? No. But they are far more diluted, even concentrated flavorings, than working with these chemicals directly. The inhalation reports posted around are really nothing more than fodder for the cannon until someone does a vaping-only study which pits specific flavors that use all of these chemicals and reports back the effects on the human body and internal organs, specifically the mouth, throat and lungs.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Are other diketones commonly used (anything ending in "dione" seems to be a bad idea) and as always, how best to avoid them?

Acetoin and Acetyl Propionyl are common as substitutes for Diacetyl, especially given the negative publicity and potential harm concentrated doses of Diacetyl can do. Diacetyl is a well-known issue, but there are no concrete studies on any of the three and the effects of vaping flavors with them mixed in (as of yet - more so because flavoring wasn't designed to be vaped). Capella's doesn't have Diacetyl, but it most likely has Acetoin or both of the substitutes, it's simply too creamy and buttery to not have at least one.

As far as avoiding all three, the best way is to simply ask. I'm personally in favor of flavoring manufacturers being required to list that any of the three are present. I think it's their duty and responsibility to do so, especially since the issue with Diacetyl isn't underground news, and in turn, all vendors should be required to list such on their sites or not sell their products. If we chose to vape it, then any ill effects are on us, at least they warned us (I mean, we smoked tobacco for X or XX years - it's in there and we never complained, we just lit up and smoked and smoked and smoked.....).

It's not only affected the popcorn industry, but the coffee industry as well. It's in Tobacco & Coffee and in the spray-on flavorings used to coat most flavored coffees (which is where a lot of issues stem - it gets sprayed on, the works inhaled it over long periods of time, fell ill - same effect). I mention this as it's possible for it to be in Coffee & Tobacco extractions (NET's or NEC's) due to it naturally occurring.

 

[salemgold]

For questions about substitutes, such as Acetoin, I'd get in touch with the guys over at NudeNicotine. They seem to be very knowledgeable and they actually use Acetoin in some of their flavorings in place of what would normally be used (i.e. Diacetyl). They seem to have done their research and while, again, that doesn't make it 100% safe, they should be able to shed some light on Acetoin's use.

From the description of acetoin in the white papers in the link provided by Jake, acetoin is most likely what is in Capella's Vanilla Custard in place of Diacetyl.



You can confirm this by reading Jakes' post here on ECF below.

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...y-related-questions-here-20.html#post11932579

What???? It has been a long time since i looked into any of this but, I am pretty darn sure that acetoin turns to diacetyl when heated.

I am tired and it is late but, i will find the info in the morning. It is crazy to say that inhaling acetoin is safer than inhaling diacetyl IF you are concerned about inhaling diacetyl.

I am not terribly concerned about small traces of diacetyl but, this is from PA website for those of you that are.

I have been doing more research, and i discovered that the molecule Acetoin can under certain circumstances "catalyze" into containing minute traces of the molecule Diacetyl. When I spoke to a chemist about this, she confirmed that this can happen during the production of the molecule, but is unlikely to happen after a flavor is blended. I then had a sample of Acetoin purchased from Vigon International analyzed by GC/MS and yes, it did have trace amounts of Diacetyl! When I looked at the online specification sheet that Vigon posts, it does show that the purity of that particular product is 93-100%. Nearly every molecule that is commercially sold is somewhere in this range for purity, and this seems to be an acceptable industry standard. (Vigon is a very reputable company!) Of course, Diacetyl is a perfectly acceptable Food Flavoring, so for the Flavor and Fragrance Industry there is absolutely no problem with this particular trace occurence in the production of Acetoin. It is completely normal. But for customers wanting to avoid even trace amounts of Diacetyl, this means that any flavor that contains the ingredient Acetoin can potentially also contain trace amounts of Diacetyl, even though Diacetyl itself was never added to the blend as an ingredient. Because of this new information, I will add to the flavor descriptions of those flavors that I know contain Acetoin, so that customers can avoid those flavors if they wish. Of course, if only a small amount of acetoin is in a flavor, then the potential likelihood of there also being diacetyl is very very small.

http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/flavorsworkshop/custard.html

It just baffles me that a vendor is using acetoin in their flavorings and proclaiming that it is safer or better than diacetyl.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

What???? It has been a long time since i looked into any of this but, I am pretty darn sure that acetoin turns to diacetyl when heated.

I am tired and it is late but, i will find the info in the morning. It is crazy to say that inhaling acetoin is safer than inhaling diacetyl IF you are concerned about inhaling diacetyl.

It just baffles me that a vendor is using acetoin in their flavorings and proclaiming that it is safer or better than diacetyl.

I don't know how many of their flavors have it, but it is used in some of their creamier flavors from what Jake said. I'd imagine the Strawberry Banana Smoothie and White Chocolate have them, just because of what they are, but beyond those, I'm not sure which of the others use it as I've not had the chance to get more information on the subject just yet.

Since full-fledged studies of vaping any of the three chemicals have yet to be fully carried out, it's hard to say how high the potential is based on X% of flavoring w/ one or both of the alternatives, but I would imagine it's relatively small. Still, the potential is there and I'm glad that TPA is one of few vendors taking steps to label their flavors. I've asked Mike from OneOnOne to do the same with theirs and he stated that they're 100% clear and do not use any of the three. FlavorWest, last I recall, is Diacetyl-Free, but no mention of the other two has been made..at least not on their site.

FlavourArt labels all of theirs as does Natures Flavors (at least, they're categorized on their own as Diacetyl-Free but no mention of the other two are made).


From what Jake from NN said, they truly make all of their flavors, so I'd get in touch with him if you have any questions. I need to follow up with him myself, but ultimately he said that from their research, the majority of the problems were with Diacetyl, which is what led them to use Acetoin in its place.

 

[HeadInClouds]

FlavourArt labels all of theirs as does Natures Flavors (at least, they're categorized on their own as Diacetyl-Free but no mention of the other two are made).

From what Jake from NN said, they truly make all of their flavors, so I'd get in touch with him if you have any questions. I need to follow up with him myself, but ultimately he said that from their research, the majority of the problems were with Diacetyl, which is what led them to use Acetoin in its place.

FlavourArt does test for diacetyl and "related diketones", which includes these substitutes. Their website separates flavorings without them ('electronic cigarette') and those that use any of them ('kitchen magic'). 'Kitchen magic' flavors each have warnings on their descriptions as well. The lab reports by flavor are available on their website.

The Flavor Apprentice also tests for at least the two main substitutes - and has warnings on their website for flavors with them, saying they should not be used for inhalation.

Resellers commonly sell these flavorings with NO warning. You'll see FA's 'Kitchen Magic' flavors and TFA's 'not intended for vaping' flavors on many other websites. You must check the manufacturers' websites before you buy. I don't know of anyone besides FA and TFA who test for and provide data regarding diacetyl substitutes.

I don't know "Jake from NN", but before anyone claims acetoin is safe to vape, they NEED to read the 2013 study of diacetyl substitutes (linked in my earlier post, back 5 or 6 in this thread). The substitutes affect lungs the same as diacetyl does.

You can taste these chemicals when vaping. TPA has a good discussion of how to do that on their website. It's that delicious buttery taste. Diacetyl tastes richer than the substitutes, but they all taste similar. Given a study that shows they ALL cause permanent tissue proliferation in the lungs, if you choose to use the substitutes, you may as well use the tastier diacetyl version - and if you choose to avoid one, it's only logical to avoid them all.

We absolutely have the right to our own decision. We also have a right to clear and complete ingredient labeling, don't you think?

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

The last bit in my previous post was aimed at Natures Flavors, since they only claim Diacetyl-Free and make no mention of the other two chemicals . I'd like to see more information from NF as most diacetyl free flavorings contain the substitutes.

I'm all for proper labeling and transparency. I think all companies should do it. Simply mentioning trace amounts is not enough. If you target vapers in any capacity, chemical reports should be available along side your flavors to confirm the presence or lack thereof of all three of these chemicals as well as anything else that may be potentially harmful.

That said, there are quite a few articles on the subject and some of them play up the potential for disease while others down play it. Some note that it's a very rare disease, others are compelled to make it seem like anyone who inhales anything with Diacetyl or a substitute is going to develop it. Then there are those that say don't eat it or inhale it, buy salted butter (since salted doesn't have diacetyl - since it's used to aid in preservation and the salt does that on it's own), others say just skip butter in general. It's a mixed up mess of articles, reports and studies.

I'd like to see one company, like FlavourArt (since they've pretty much been leading the pack), do a conclusive study on all three chemicals. Maybe if they teamed up with Jake and his team from NudeNicotine, they could sponsor a report with cold, hard facts and definite information that vapers can see.

FlavourArt does test for diacetyl and "related diketones", which includes these substitutes. Their website separates flavorings without them ('electronic cigarette') and those that use any of them ('kitchen magic'). 'Kitchen magic' flavors each have warnings on their descriptions as well. The lab reports by flavor are available on their website.

The Flavor Apprentice also tests for at least the two main substitutes - and has warnings on their website for flavors with them, saying they should not be used for inhalation.

Resellers commonly sell these flavorings with NO warning. You'll see FA's 'Kitchen Magic' flavors and TFA's 'not intended for vaping' flavors on many other websites. You must check the manufacturers' websites before you buy. I don't know of anyone besides FA and TFA who test for and provide data regarding diacetyl substitutes.

I don't know "Jake from NN", but before anyone claims acetoin is safe to vape, they NEED to read the 2013 study of diacetyl substitutes (linked in my earlier post, back 5 or 6 in this thread). The substitutes affect lungs the same as diacetyl does.

You can taste these chemicals when vaping. TPA has a good discussion of how to do that on their website. It's that delicious buttery taste. Diacetyl tastes richer than the substitutes, but they all taste similar. Given a study that shows they ALL cause permanent tissue proliferation in the lungs, if you choose to use the substitutes, you may as well use the tastier diacetyl version - and if you choose to avoid one, it's only logical to avoid them all.

We absolutely have the right to our own decision. We also have a right to clear and complete ingredient labeling, don't you think?