Capella's Vanilla Custard - Report from ABC Consulting & Testing (via Tom)

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Svt54

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So where IS the adequate/actual valid research proving any of these 'custard/butter notes' are safe to vape (inhaling these chemicals mixed with vg/pg/nic/other chemicals into the lungs of short/long term smokers for a 8-10 hours per day for several months - with adequate controls)? We keep hearing 'based on research', but we keep not seeing anything that comes close to resembling actual vaping.

I am doing that unofficial study for you right now. My ADV is a vanilla custard similar to Grant's, that has 15% Capella vanilla custard in it. I vape it almost exclusively, about 5ml a day, for a little over 3 months now. I will continue this study until the unlikely scenario of me finding something I like better. If I get sick two years or ten years from now, I will make sure to post my findings.

Hopefully I will be able to conclude this study 25 years from now. If I don't die from food preservatives, red meat, soft drinks, fast food, bacon (mmm, bacon), smog, a car wreck, sunlight induced skin cancer, a government conspiracy, nuclear holocaust, zombies, electrocution, drowning in my pool, a brain tumor from my cell phone, or a freak ice skating accident.
 

we2rcool

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Recent studies indicate the substitutes being used have the same health dangers as diacetyl.
Link to abstract of late-2013 study: Evaluation of the hypersensitivity potenti... [Food Chem Toxicol. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI
and the text:

Concern has been raised over the association of diacetyl with lung disease clinically resembling bronchiolitis obliterans in food manufacturing workers. This has resulted in the need for identification of alternative chemicals to be used in the manufacturing process. Structurally similar chemicals, 2,3-pentanedione, 2,3-hexanedione, 3,4-hexanedione and 2,3-heptanedione, used as constituents of synthetic flavoring agents have been suggested as potential alternatives for diacetyl, however, immunotoxicity data on these chemicals are limited. The present study evaluated the dermal irritation and sensitization potential of diacetyl alternatives using a murine model. None of the chemicals were identified as dermal irritants when tested at concentrations up to 50%. Similar to diacetyl (EC3=17.9%), concentration-dependent increases in lymphocyte proliferation were observed following exposure to all four chemicals, with calculated EC3 values of 15.4% (2,3-pentanedione), 18.2% (2,3-hexanedione), 15.5% (3,4-hexanedione) and 14.1% (2,3-heptanedione). No biologically significant elevations in local or total serum IgE were identified after exposure to 25-50% concentrations of these chemicals. These results demonstrate the potential for development of hypersensitivity responses to these proposed alternative butter flavorings and raise concern about the use of structurally similar replacement chemicals. Additionally, a contaminant with strong sensitization potential was found in varying concentrations in diacetyl obtained from different producers.

'Hadn't had any time to do any research and check this out until now...

>From here: CDC - Flavorings-Related Lung Disease: Exposures to Flavoring Chemicals - NIOSH Workplace Safety and Health Topic


2,3-Pentanedione

The alpha-diketone, 2,3-pentanedione, has received attention as a flavoring substitute for diacetyl.
It is also known as acetyl propionyl or by CAS number 600-14-6. It is structurally very similar to diacetyl since 2,3-pentanedione is a 5-carbon alpha-diketone and diacetyl is a 4-carbon alpha-diketone. Published reports on the toxicity of 2,3-pentanedione were first published in abstract form in 2010 (Hubbset al. 2010b; Morgan et al. 2010). A recent NIOSH peer-reviewed publication documents that acute inhalation exposures to 2,3-pentanedione cause airway epithelial damage that is similar to diacetyl in laboratory studies (Hubbset al. 2012)....​

>From here: Popcorn flavoring effects on reac... [J Toxicol Environ Health A. 2013] - PubMed - NCBI

Data suggest that the effects of 2,3-pentanedione on airway reactivity are greater than those of diacetyl, and that flavorings are airway smooth muscle relaxants and constrictors, thus indicating a complex mechanism.

>From here: https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/flavoringlung/diacetyl_worker_alert.html

Examples of Flavors That May Contain Diacetyl and Substitutes

Dairy flavors (e.g., butter, cheese, yogurt flavors).
"Brown" flavors (e.g., caramel, butterscotch, brown sugar).
Other flavors (e.g., butter pecan, some fruit flavors).​

***
Diacetyl substitutes that have not been proven to be safe include diacetyl trimer, 2,3 hexanedione, 2,3 heptanedione, and 2,3 pentanedione.​

So how much is too much? From here: CDC - NIOSH Update - Diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione: NIOSH Seeks Comment On Draft Criteria Document


For Diacetyl, a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends in the draft document a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period.

For 2,3-pentanedione, a recommended exposure limit (REL) of 9.3 parts per billion (ppb) as an eight-hour, time-weighted average, (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. The REL for 2,3-pentanedione in the draft document is based upon the lowest level at which the substance reliably can be detected using the existing analytical method, and should not be misconstrued to imply that 2,3-pentanedione is of lower toxicity than diacetyl. Further, NIOSH recommends a STEL of 31 ppb to limit peak exposures for 2,3-pentanedione on the same basis of analytic method limitation.​

What "percentage" is "parts per billion"? Parts Per Billion Conversion Chart (Fractions and Percent Converter, Percentages And Parts)

5 ppb = 0.0000005%
9 ppb = 0.0000009%
25 ppb = 0.0000025%
31 ppb = 0.0000031%

Yet the recently posted "good news" (???) http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/530906-good-news-coming-capellas-flavoring-direct-tom.html :

1). For those worried about whether or not Diacetyl is in their flavors, he said he would be more than happy to provide a signed statement confirming that Diacetyl is in fact not present in any of their flavors. They have done GC/MS testing on their flavors and can provide a report showcasing this on request for those concerned (similar to the one I posted for their Vanilla Custard). He said he was more than happy to do this as he understands the cause for concern.


2). Acetyl Proprionyl is in certain flavors, like the Vanilla Custard flavoring, but for those concerned, they are doing testing on % mixes at 5%, 10%, 15%, 20% and 30% to confirm the levels in the final product (i.e. meaning, a mixed e-liquid using PG and VG) and they plan on reporting said information. This means we'll be able to make a truly informed decision and we'll have a general idea of how much of the chemical will be present. I don't have a finite date on when it'll be done, but he said very soon - so I'd imagine a few months at most, a few weeks at the least. Since these flavors are used in other industries, they won't be removing it from the existing line, but.....

So the "good news" is...

...that they use Acetyl Proprionyl instead of diacetyl - but that ingredient isn't disclosed anywhere on sales sites (that we can find after doing domain searches)
...that the GC/MS that showed "less than .4% diacetyl" (upon which they base their claim for "diacetyl free"?) is the same test they'll be using for the Acetyl Proprionyl (when we need testing that can reveal parts per billion)? EDIT - oops, I see that Capella is going to test for parts per billion. END EDIT
...people continue to defend vendors & manufacturers who continue to add, create, and profit from selling these known harmful chemicals (UNDISCLOSED) to flavors they sell.

We see acetyl propionyl is "2,3 pentanedione" (which appears to be as dangerous as diacetyl)...but what the heck are the others? (Structurally similar chemicals, 2,3-pentanedione, 2,3-hexanedione, 3,4-hexanedione and 2,3-heptanedione). And are we sucking them into our lungs when vaping diacetyl-free, acetoin-free, acetyl propionyl-free flavors? And why aren't we all concerned - and doing our best to find out, research & share? We certainly have no problem with discussing the health-damaging chemicals in cigarettes (and bashing the companies that add them).

Certainly we can't be silly enough to think that when going from inhaling scorching smoke, tar, and the chemicals in cigarettes, that we'd be able to discern the harm being done when inhaling a 'cooler-softer vapor' that reduces the symptoms from the scorching smoke & tar. And double-certainly, we cannot rely upon chemicals that've been 'certified' as GRAS by the 'authority agency gods' even being safe to ingest...let alone be mainlined into our bloodstream via inhalation.

It's definitely not "anti vaping" to want to vape in the safest way possible! And after going from one or two brands (flavors) of cigarettes, it's not like it would be some kind of 'major sacrifice' to eliminate the chemicals/flavors that are damaging. Good heavens, we'd only have hundreds/thousands of options for flavors leftover! :ohmy:

I like the way "mrwizard" put it here: Which One Is Right/Wrong?? Acetoin/Diacetyl

As Linda states on the TPA link you have, it's possible for Acetoin to create trace amounts of Diacetyl.
One research paper I read on analysing Acetoin and Diacetyl in bacterial cultures mentioned that the researchers converted Acetoin into Diacetyl by a simple oxidation process involving ferric (iron) chloride.
Bottomline is this means that even though a flavoring company does not use Diacetyl directly, it's still possible for their flavoring to end up containing Diacetyl if they use Acetoin.

Is that trace amount going to be enough to create a health hazard or increase your risk of developing bronchiolitis obliterans (popcorn lung) in the average vaper?

Is the amount of Diacetyl absorbed when vaping Custard flavors still made with Diacetyl enough to reach that threshold of increased risk?

Are Acetoin or Acetyl propionyl themselves going to be found to be as much of a health risk as Diacetyl?

We can't know for sure as OSHA is still gathering the data to determine that, but they are concerned enough that they've already told us they ARE going to be changing the workplace regs regarding exposure.

What I do know is we have a very large, real-world experiment going on involving vaping guinea pigs, and I'm betting in the next decade or two we'll have those answers.

Personally, I'm vaping to get away from known health hazards, and since I have literally millions of flavor combinations to choose from that don't contain Diacetyl or Diacetyl-related compounds, I've got no desire or need to be a guinea pig for this particular experiment.

Wethinks it's essential to learn & share as much knowledge as possible. Parts. Per. BILLION.
 
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we2rcool

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flavourart does test for diacetyl and "related diketones", which includes these substitutes. Their website separates flavorings without them ('electronic cigarette') and those that use any of them ('kitchen magic'). 'kitchen magic' flavors each have warnings on their descriptions as well. The lab reports by flavor are available on their website.

The flavor apprentice also tests for at least the two main substitutes - and has warnings on their website for flavors with them, saying they should not be used for inhalation.

Resellers commonly sell these flavorings with no warning. You'll see fa's 'kitchen magic' flavors and tfa's 'not intended for vaping' flavors on many other websites. You must check the manufacturers' websites before you buy. I don't know of anyone besides fa and tfa who test for and provide data regarding diacetyl substitutes.

I don't know "jake from nn", but before anyone claims acetoin is safe to vape, they need to read the 2013 study of diacetyl substitutes (linked in my earlier post, back 5 or 6 in this thread). The substitutes affect lungs the same as diacetyl does.

You can taste these chemicals when vaping. Tpa has a good discussion of how to do that on their website. It's that delicious buttery taste. Diacetyl tastes richer than the substitutes, but they all taste similar. Given a study that shows they all cause permanent tissue proliferation in the lungs, if you choose to use the substitutes, you may as well use the tastier diacetyl version - and if you choose to avoid one, it's only logical to avoid them all.

We absolutely have the right to our own decision. we also have a right to clear and complete ingredient labeling, don't you think?

Yes! Yes! Yes!
 

we2rcool

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This is not a very good test because it could not measure concentrations below .4% and is therefore inconclusive. That is only down to 4 parts per thousand when there are techniques like HPLC which can easily measure parts per million.

tonyorion, could you please expand our knowledge a bit? I've been Googling the GC/MS testing and can't find/understand if it's an accurate test when one goes down to parts per billion. Thank you!
 

Jonathan Tittle

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we2rcool

The "Good News" post I made was to share information from Tom, not to state that vaping one or all three of the chemicals was safe, or unsafe. As you mentioned before, there are no long-term studies on the effects of vaping, whether it's Strawberry from TFA/FA/Hangsen, Vanilla Custard from FA/Capella's, or a mix of flavors in-between. It's all up in the air and to think any of it is 100% safe would be foolish on all counts. It's about harm reduction, not elimination. If we want to be completely safe, we shouldn't be vaping at all.

The testing being done is on the *final* product, i.e. e-liquids mixed at W, X, Y, Z percentages, not a limited test that only tests PPM or PPB. The majority of the tests today are on the concentrated flavors, not the end-result that you, I and other members are vaping on, that much is fact. The other test on the Vanilla Custard flavoring was the result of a bottle of the flavoring being sent in for a GC/MS test where no results were posted other than "yes, it appears to be in there, thanks" - which, on it's own, and without proof, is useless. I don't work for Capella's, so I have absolutely nothing to gain here, but at least the report that Tom provided can be traced back to a working lab. That lab may not be able to detect below .4%, though hopefully the new testing that they're undergoing will be able to show us a little more info so that there's no question about it.

That said, you appear to have missed the other part of the thread that stated they will be releasing a Version 2 of the flavors which do not use Acetyl Proprionyl. This means a new flavor without this chemical, or the other two that could potentially be used. Will it mimic the same flavor profile? I don't know as I've not tried it, but I'm hopeful they have a way of producing something that is at least close. This will give you and others the option of using flavoring without a trace of the three chemicals and from there, you can make a decision of whether it's good for you or not.


As for flavoring in general, we know as much about a flavor as flavor vendors tell us and we don't know for 100% fact that the chemicals used to make up an artificial strawberry flavoring, as an example, aren't shredding our lungs. We could go another 10 years and find our that Vendor X missed something all along and that this new chemical is now known to cause cancer, lung issues etc. It's the nature of the beast. There's always going to be something that can do harm to our bodies and as is always said, flavoring was designed for the food and beverage industry, not vaping. We choose to vape the flavoring and we have a choice of flavor vendors. Nobody forces anyone to vape a flavor.


While you may not feel safe vaping small concentrations of one chemical or another, I see it as a trade off as do many others who vape flavors that use the existing Vanilla Custard from Capella's and other flavors with Acetoin or AP in them. We smoked for however long (for me 10 years) and inhaled well over 4,000 chemicals, including Diacetyl, and never batted an eyelash. We inhaled not only our own smoke, but the second hand smoke from others around us when we were around a group of smokers. We now have, on average, less than 10 chemicals being inhaled and we're sounding the alarms. Vaping isn't meant, IMO, to be 100% safe, it's simply a safer alternative, harm reduction - and I know that you know that as well as I do. I respect your right and choice to not vape flavors with certain chemicals as much as I hope you respect my right to vape them, or not vape them - either way :).

I know you're primarily interested in the safety of vaping, and I respect that as well, but it's a double-edged sword. Short of vaping unflavored PG/VG and Nicotine, vaping flavoring is always going to be a toss up unless we somehow come across a guaranteed way to ensure that whatever flavor we vape is going to do zero damage to our system.
 
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