CBC Radio The Current will discuss Ecigs this morning!

[Projectguy]

What do you think is up with Health Canada not attending the "Non-Smokers Rights Association" meeting tomorrow. Could there be a disconnect? Hmmm.

Anna Maria said it - "They're [HC] turning a blind eye". HC, CRA, Customs, Excise don't have a clue as to what to do with e-cigs and the toughest part [for them] is even if they knew what to do they wouldn't know how. It would be prohibition in reverse.

 

[Projectguy]

Tremanti did in fact say that both the FDA and HC will be regulating ecigs. Like she had some insiders info...

Her "insiders info..." is really astute observation. HC parrots the FDA not because they're stupid but because they establish a harmonized cross border enforcement system.

 

[fourtytwo]

The form factor has it's upside as well as downside.
If you look at the most commonly ask question from people looking to get into vaping, you see comments about wanting something that looks and feels just like a cig. If anything, those minis with the light up tip are a gateway from smoking to vaping.
In all my time on ECF, I have only seen one case of a person who wanted to get into vaping without being a smoker first.

 

[Projectguy]

I think HC will be making a move to regulate it, their current policy is clearly not working. There is no problem for us to get nic-juice despite the fact they forbid the sale of it. So I sure they will try and make a move in a way that involves them in the process. The question is, what shape and form will that be?

I say 3 to 5 years. That's how long it will take the bureaucrats and BT to get their poop in the same place. HC will tax and regulate the market and turn it over to BT who will gladly be their enforcers.

 

[Projectguy]

Also in response about the inside information. It has been reported that the FDA will be looking to regulate e-cigs in April. There are posts here about that. There was some kind of hearing the states earlier this month. Sorry I'm a bit foggy on the details. Right now in Canada, it's a bit like the wild west. Things are going to change, you can almost bank on it.

The FDA will be considering "deeming" e-cigs which will effectively classify them the same as cigarettes below is my contribution to the FDA debate:

I am Jacques Huot and while I am not an American citizen I am a Native person (Huron Wendat) so that any legislation whether passed in the USA or in Canada that affects the Aboriginal people of North America is of interest to me. In broad terms we (Native People) have a very complex relationship with tobacco. Culturally tobacco is a sacred medicine and continues to be an integral part of our relationship with Creator, Mother Earth, our ceremony and our prayers. Economically it also forms an important part of the employment and revenue base on many reserves. Unfortunately, cigarette consumption by Aboriginals is disproportionate (60%) to that of the non-Aboriginal population (15% to 20%).

I know this not just as a statistic but also as the volunteer Chair of Anishnawbe Health Toronto, a fully accredited not-for-profit primary healthcare facility serving the Aboriginal population of the Greater Toronto Area (“AHT”). The health consequences related to cigarettes and chronic diseases which are at a rate of 6X the general population, magnifies the problems and significantly increases the morbidity in our population. This does not even begin to address the social determinants of health of cigarette consumption which most affects the economically disadvantaged segments of any population. Because of the complexity of the social and medical problems our approach is harm reduction. While AHT does not as yet have a policy with regards e-cigs its Board has unanimously passed a resolution requesting that when funding would permit, a study be conducted on the use of e-cigs as a method of harm reduction.

I am a Pipe Carrier. I will never remove tobacco from my life just as Christians will not remove the Bible from theirs. Tobacco, for me, is now where it belongs, for prayer because of e-cigs. I quit a 30-year, 1-2 pack a day habit thanks to e-cigs.

“Deeming” will create another era of Prohibition and execute the most promising tool in the reduction of the use of cigarettes.

 

[Projectguy]

I'm not keen on the label e-cigarette either. I tell people it's a personal vaporizer. IMO it may mimic a cigarette but it's not. You can explain that to groups like the NSRA, but I'm sure it will fall on deaf ears.

In fact if I may shamelessly copy the work of another Canadian vaper on a forum which will remain nameless it is a

P.E.N.I.S.

Personal
Electronic
Nicotine
Inhalation
System

There you have it.

 

[NickFit]

I think it's important to comment on the "normalizing cigarette smoking" argument.

What else will they ban because it normalizes something... what about those root beers that come in a brown bottle? Can't have them, they will normalize drinking... and what is the problem with normalizing something that is not illegal anyway? This argument is proof positive that their focus in not on the health effects but the actual act of smoking/vaping. If they came out with a cigarette tomorrow that was 100% healthy and proven to be scientifically, these people would still want it banned using this argument.

It all comes down to freedom of choice or personal freedom for me.. if I am not hurting another person, I should be able to do whatever I want... any other system is a nanny state, and we are not free. Do they want to use the notwithstanding clause on ecigs? We have a charter of rights and freedoms, and it states in Section 7: "Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of the person and the right not to be deprived thereof except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice." We are all supposed to have the right to liberty(personal choice) and security of person (privacy of the body and it's health). The only way these rights are supposed to be impeded is when another's rights are being infringed upon. No law is valid as far as I am concerned that bans an individual from acting in a way that only affects them, and it would also extend to situations involving consenting adults.

Edit: Why don't we use section 12 (Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment) in order to ensure our right to vape. Nicotine addiction can be looked upon as a disability and we are being persecuted due to our disability. We find another less harmful way to manage our addiction and it is banned for illegitimate reasons, forcing people to turn back to a more harmful method of feeding their addiction. Cruel and unusual punishment.

 

[fourtytwo]

In fact if I may shamelessly copy the work of another Canadian vaper on a forum which will remain nameless it is a

P.E.N.I.S.

Personal
Electronic
Nicotine
Inhalation
System

There you have it.

well... that may be problematic to some who are trying to address the oral fixation part of the habit.

 

[fourtytwo]

What else will they ban because it normalizes something... what about those root beers that come in a brown bottle? Can't have them, they will normalize drinking... and what is the problem with normalizing something that is not illegal anyway? This argument is proof positive that their focus in not on the health effects but the actual act of smoking/vaping. If they came out with a cigarette tomorrow that was 100% healthy and proven to be scientifically, these people would still want it banned using this argument...

I would take that a few steps farther.
Why not ban all soft drinks? They come in cans and bottles so are obvious gateways products to full blown alcoholism...

 

[Ayce]

At the risk of getting flamed, I had read that Nicotine on it's own, in low doses, is as hamful/less as caffine, which is also highly addictive, yet we don't ban caffine. (yet) It's just another delivery system, like tea vs. coffee. Too much caffine isn't good for you, either, and in high concentrations "may" be lethal. Does HC consider caffine a drug? It's the nicotine bugaboo that has all the nannys whining, only because of the "old" delivery system.
JMO, of course.

On another note, w/o getting political, weren't ecigs invented in China? They are the "bad guys" right now, aren't they?

 

[Hello World]

Do you have an online link to the live broadcast?

Found it --> The Current | The Current with Anna Maria Tremonti | CBC Radio

Not enough fighting to make it interesting. That's what happens when Vapers aren't involved to express their point of view to let that Melanie from Non-smoker Rights Association have it.

The Doc is pretty lame too.

There concern is e-cigs will normalize smoking. They don't want to see vaping done in the workplace or any other place where smoking isn't allowed. They sound like a "nanny state" group to me.

Exactly. Now they're are overstepping the bounds of tobacco harm reduction/cessation and trying to police image and associations. They see a vaper, it pains them. Maybe it hurts me seeing obese people eating sugar products, therefore regulations should be enacted to keep them out my sight?

One way to address this would be to ban any device that looks like a cigarette. I've always hated the term e-cig, that's what's lumped us all together. If I have a Silver-dog, a Zenesis, an iHybrid, a VMODxl or an Orion in my hand there is no way that there can be an association with a cigarette. It is DIFFERENT.

They want to regulate things on the basis what they look like and the associations formed in their minds.
A subversion from the physical health dangers of smoking which is the actual issue at hand. What else can they fabricate that is objectionable?

 

[NickFit]

I just finished listening to the show, and the impression I got from the NSRA representative(Melodie Tilson) was that she does acknowledge that ecigs are nowhere near as harmful as actual cigarettes (in fact, she said it) but she thinks they should be regulated the same as cigarettes (and she also said even with nicotine in them). Both her and the SmokeNV guy(Dr. Preet Rai) agreed that they should not be available to minors and regulation is coming, implying that even the nicotine ecigs would be likely be available but no ads, no displays, basically sold and regulated as cigarettes are now.

I have no problem with that whatsoever. Melodie sounded more agitated that Health Canada is lax on the regulation and people are able to purchase the nicotine containing ecigs without any enforcement and that she would rather regulation than the system as it is now. I still think that the argument that people will start using a no-nic ecig and turn to cigarettes is a load of bull. Who would start with a less harmful product, intentionally avoiding the addictive product, and then later decide to use the more harmful/addicitive product. And somebody who likes the candy flavor would cringe at the real tobacco flavor of a cigarette.

I don't care if ecigs are advertised, but we should have a right to choose whether we use them... so regulate, but don't ban.

 

[SloHand]

well... that may be problematic to some who are trying to address the oral fixation part of the habit.

LMFAO bhahahahahaha !

 

[Oriana871]

I just finished listening to the show, and the impression I got from the NSRA representative(Melodie Tilson) was that she does acknowledge that ecigs are nowhere near as harmful as actual cigarettes (in fact, she said it) but she thinks they should be regulated the same as cigarettes (and she also said even with nicotine in them). Both her and the SmokeNV guy(Dr. Preet Rai) agreed that they should not be available to minors and regulation is coming, implying that even the nicotine ecigs would be likely be available but no ads, no displays, basically sold and regulated as cigarettes are now.

I agree however she did come across as being concerned, after all the work her organization has done to vilify smoking, over the similarity of vaping to smoking, thereby undoing all of her work.

Not to mention that the CLA is also concerned about the "normalization/glamorizing" of smoking. That fear is out there, and they are crossing the line IMO.

 

[Oriana871]

Ok here's the argument. Smoking used to effect non-smokers. Electronic cigarettes do not. Start from that premise and work from there.

 

[JShrigley]

I see this issue in two ways, lets call it good and evil. The good side says that some form of regulation is in fact needed in this industry. Now before anyone gets all bent out of shape let me explain that point a little further. Here is an example, I go onto store x and ask the clerk for a 30 ml bottle of e juice at 18 mg nic level and I am putting my faith in that persons ability to correctly mix the juice that I am going to put into my body. What happens if they miscalculate and the nic level is way too high? This is where I see a real need for some form of regulation.

Now for that evil I mentioned earlier, and it may just be my cynical outlook on all things big business and government but that's a whole other story. As it stands right now the big tobacco businesses are making boatloads of money off of smokers knowing full well that it is a damn hard habit to kick. So here comes this new trend in vaping that is picking up steam (pun fully intended) and gaining popularity for one simple reason....it works. So what we have is big tobacco losing customers which they really don't like and we also have the big pharmaceutical companies that are all too willing to sell us expensive "proven" methods to quit also knowing full well that they really don't work and they will likely have repeat customers for those that continue to try and kick the habit.

So the biggest issue with anyone that finds a solution like vaping that gets them off of analogs is that neither of these big businesses are making any more money off of us. To me that is the real issue here and until they figure out a way to make money off of it there will continue to be the same battles. Just google how much money these two groups contribute to the government and you will see how all three are laughing all the way to the bank while the masses continue to slowly poison themselves and others with one the most wide spread and most addictive substances know to man.

If the government really and truly cared about its people they would have outlawed cigarettes decades ago. Study after study has proven that they are killers but you can get them on any corner of any city world wide. Sure doesn't seem like they care about the general public to me unless they want your money that is.

 

[Oriana871]

I agree wholeheartedly however there is a big social stigma that also needs to be addressed. Oh dear if you sell bubble gum juice, kids or non-smokers will be attracted, oh dear if non-smokers were afraid of smoking now they won't be, oh dear, we can't let smoking be seen as ok, etc. etc.

 

[JShrigley]

this is true but I started smoking many years ago as I am sure most everyone else did on here and while I cannot remember why I ever did the end result is I made that choice and that is that. No amount of studies or government warning labels deterred me from that. The bottom line is if someone is going to choose to smoke or vape or drink or whatever they are going to do it and no one can stop that. We all knew the risks of smoking and yet we all started. Anti smoking campaigns in my opinion do not work there is not one person out there that does not know that smoking is bad for you but millions of people still do it. To me I would absolutely recommend vaping to anyone over smoking even if they are a non smoker. If they are going to start something anyway I would rather they do something that is at the very least better for you than smoking is.

 

[Oriana871]

Yeah that's what I wrote to the CBC, see earlier in this thread. Got a little carried away at the end, but nevertheless. We need a lobby group, seriously.

 

[CdnBison]

If it meant I could go to a local B&M to get supplies, I'd be ok with regulation. Yes, there would likely be some taxes added on, but as long as prices remain reasonable, that'd be the price we, as vapers, pay.

The other benefit would (in an ideal world) be that big pharma and big tobacco both start entering the market and bringing more (and less expensive) innovation. I love my mods, but if current smokers could get a quality VV/VW mod at a low price (see: what China has been producing), I think there would be far more normalization of vaping and an increase in our numbers.

Worst case - we are only allowed to vape at night, under a blanket, in the back yard. Liquid costs $1/ml.