CBC Asleep at the Wheel: HASN'T Reported on Historic FDA Loss over E-Cigs!!

[Can_supplier]

I wouldn't get all happy yet…

If you remember from a few months back their was Judge Leon's decision, the 1st in this case ruling in favor of njoy. It was then appealed or stayed or whatever by the FDA and somewhat reversed. Now the tables are turned back the other way.

I fully expect this battle to go back and forth a few more times and it progresses through the countless levels of the legal system.

In the end its almost an exercise in futility. The score could be 9-1 for njoy/ecigarettes even winning the last battle in the highest court, and with one stroke of the pen the government can create new, stronger and direct legislation and the process will start right back at square one. Of course you are asking, how would this ever end? Well it won't.. Its like Switched said, until they get their money, this dance can go on forever.

From a Canadian perspective there is no reason why HC should or will follow a ruling from a foreign court. The entire issue is different. In Canada under the Food and Drug Act HC has clear powers. It only a matter of when, if and to what degree they intend to use them. Prime example, you don't see the guys who were encouraged by HC to reduce their product line now brining those products back out as a result of this ruling.

The battle is FAR FAR from over.

 

[rachelcoffe]

Rob...standing up for what is right is never an exercise in futility. It may appear futile sometimes, but it's not. The very worst thing we can do is give up without a fight. And I continue to be baffled by the apathy & cynicism I'm seeing from some in the vaping community. Especially at this time of year, and in the shadow of a huge win for the good guys. I doubt there are any circumstances whatsoever that would please some people. No matter how positive the news, no matter how good things get, no matter what happens...some of them would still be miserable, cynical, and still predict doom.

Legislation isn't passed with "one stroke of the pen" either - in Canada or the United States. It takes a long time, consultations, rewrites, etc - countless factors are involved. I'm just saying Rob, that phrasing it that way suggests that sweeping new legislation is a lot simpler to enact than it actually is, and that our cause is far more futile than it actually is. (I'm sure you didn't mean to be suggestive of such. But on a subconscious level, we are subtly influenced by the power of suggestion.) Anyway, yeah - legislation doesn't happen at the drop of a hat.

Let's also consider the likelihood of direct legislation for the purpose of re-establishing Prohibition (but on vaping this time). Next to impossible. For one, how would they explain it? "Oh no, we no longer want to regulate e-cigs, or test them, um...we just want to, ah......ban them outright. (pause) Please don't ask me to elaborate."

There is no valid argument for banning them. It doesn't exist. Ditto the nicotine - the exact same nicotine is already widely sold throughout North America in deadly means (tobacco) & in ineffective/unsatisfying means (NRT). I guarantee that big tobacco & big pharma, if given the choice between an indefensible attack on nicotine...or a circumstance where vaping continues on (but so do they)...as much as they hate vaping, they're never going to attack nicotine or support those who do. If nicotine falls, they fall. And the science is already in on nicotine, folks - conclusively. There's no reason for nicotine to not be enjoyed by those who wish to...any more than caffeine should not be enjoyed by those who wish to.

Also, the United States has within its collective experience & memory the proven knowledge that Prohibition measures do not work - lead to a dramatic increase in crime - and dramatically decrease safety for consumers. It would super-duper not work in a circumstance where they were attempting to say that the exact same nicotine in e-juice that allegedly required Prohibition legislation for no apparent reason...is still widely available in tobacco cigarettes & NRT.

What I am really trying to say here folks...is that we should not be focusing our attention on negatives that might happen years from now (or might never happen at all). We'll cross those bridges together if and when we come to them. For now, we should focus our efforts on victory & actually do something towards that effort. After all, we have a solid case! How many of you have still not written to your riding's MP about vaping? How many of you have & gave up pursuing the matter after that first try? How many of us are willing to try at all?

This holiday season is all about goodwill to our fellow beings. I can think of no kinder act for a vaper, than to in some small way at least attempt to bring us all closer to the time when all Canadians will know of vaping, and have it available to them. It is the gift of life.

And now, I'm off to enjoy vaping for the next hour or so, & baking gingerbread with my girls.

 

[greencity]

When it comes to regulatory issues re: Ecigs there is no debating that "Canadian Supplier" is indeed Debbie Downer.

 

[Can_supplier]

Guys, you are taking my post the wrong way, if you think I am saying it is time to lay the guns down.

I am not saying that not fighting for this is not worthwhile. On the contrary. It is worth fighting for. My whole point of my post is that we need to continue the fight, and not accept this as a win. It is a victory in a battle, but we are not close to winning the war.

We all need to be prepared for ups and downs. As with anything worthwhile battle it not going to be easy with every fight ending with a win, we just need to win more than we loose.
My prediction here is the next news will be bad news, as its not going to be won this easy. What we need to do now is not celebrate this win, but prepare for what is next, and be 2 steps ahead in the game.

Switched has been 100% right in his posts. This all will come down to money, and unfortunately money always trumps what is right, or even the will of the majority. Simply look to the American Bank bailouts.

We have yet to see taxation even start to become a factor is this, which is how we know we are only at the beginning and have a very long way to go.

Keep your heads up, enjoy the win, but DO NOT let your guard down.

 

[Switched]

What ^^ he said^^

 

[rachelcoffe]

Hi again Rob.

I appreciate your recent response, and wish to clarify my own. Please know that I consider you a dear friend, fellow vaper & one of the best suppliers in all of Canada. You & Jack all the way!

I just felt like some of the reactions to this good news were unfairly negative & too quick to dismiss a significant win. Especially given how rare such good news is for our community, and how friggin' loooong we waited for this ruling. I mean I was like "ok yes - battle's not over. But - this took a year. And we won this round! Can we please take even 5 minutes to enjoy this good news before we start laser-beam focusing on ways that things might go badly in future?" It is a disservice to our cause for anyone to forever be so focused on what might go wrong someday - to the exclusion of all else - that no news, no matter how good, can cheer them up.

I agree we have a long way to go still. Particularly in Canada. But we must not go into this fight expecting the worst. Expecting failure inevitably hampers our efforts. Our best defense against any situation is an encouraged, empowered, informed community that believes it can make a difference & knows it's standing on solid ground...not a cynical, disillusioned community that just sort of hopes things'll work out.

We'll cross any bridges together if and when we come to them...and in the meantime, we really need to harness the power of positive thinking & encourage each other in the shadow of what is a very helpful hunk of good news from the States.

Now as to money...again, saying things like "this is all about money - money always trumps what is right" - Rob man, don't take this personally...but that is not a constructive or helpful statement. Nor is it true! There are countless examples to the contrary. Saying that sort of thing - especially in a thread where we're trying to get people to actively work on something (i.e. contact the CBC* & ask why they've not even tokenly reported on this noteworthy news while Nasdaq, BusinessWeek, Yahoo, ABC News, and many more have) - only discourages people from getting off their behinds & taking action. It puts the idea into their head that they're powerless, so why bother? It feeds apathy.

*(Speaking briefly on that...does no one here find it increasingly strange that CBC has still not yet reported on that news at all? We're not asking them to say if it's good or bad - simply to report that it's happened! Other news agencies are doing so. What gives??? I would be encouraged by the news that at least some of you have raised this question with the CBC in a phonecall or email.)

But in consideration of the money factor...

There's way, way more money for the government to earn (in overall tax revenue) if the majority of smokers quit smoking & start vaping...than tobacco tax could ever dream of gathering. Even with the only tax on vaping being HST. (As I mentioned earlier in this thread, vaping won't ever be sin-taxed here.) Even then - much more overall tax revenue than tobacco tax now brings.

Remember too that vaping doesn't cost our healthcare system billions upon billions of dollars. Tobacco does. Tobacco also causes loss to our economic productivity, air pollution/damage to our environment, and premature loss of life for goodness sakes - all of which mean that tobacco is losing us much, much more than those healthcare billions.

Factor in how more and more smokers (who obviously haven't heard of vaping yet) are switching to tax-free contraband cigarettes - a huge, now-entrenched business that would cost the government a fortune to even trim in the slightest, with even that meager result only fleeting - and it all becomes clear. Smoking is deadly, and costs our society a fortune at every turn. And more & more smokers will never again pay tobacco taxes. If the government cares so much about money guys...then I don't think they're going to be keen to prop up such a system where they get almost none, but lose tons.



A healthier, happier, longer-lived population will be more willing (and able) to contribute to society as workers, consumers, & taxpayers...for longer. They will pay taxes on any number of things, for longer. If the government wants money, that's the way to go.

And consider what this all really boils down to. Most smokers in Canada still do not even know that vaping exists. That lack of knowledge (propped up by the lack of conspicuously available e-cigs/e-juice) is the only thing keeping deadly tobacco & ineffective NRT in business at the moment.

But the government cannot delay widespread knowledge of vaping forever. The people's ignorance is not sustainable. It is inevitable that the day will come where awareness of the miracle of vaping will reach critical mass in Canada. The choice to abandon tobacco & start vaping belongs to the people...not the government. And when the knowledge of vaping reaches critical mass...the people will exercise their choice. They will quit smoking & start vaping. The only real fight before us is how long it will take before the government bows to the inevitable. We each have a role to play in that.

So I say once more: how many of you have still not written to your riding's MP about vaping? How many of you have & gave up pursuing the matter after that first try? How many of us are willing to try at all?

This holiday season is all about goodwill to our fellow beings. I can think of no kinder act for a vaper, than to in some small way at least attempt to bring us all closer to the time when all Canadians will know of vaping, and have it available to them. It is the gift of life.

And now I'm off to make fresh coffe.

 

[Can_supplier]

Rachel,

You still don’t have me convinced it is not going to be about money.

To get contraband cigarettes right out of the way, they to come down to money. If I were to open a contraband cigarette shop in my driveway I would last 5 mins until the police shut me down. Clearly they have the power to shut them all down. Why don’t they? Because the government uses the cigarettes to control 1st nations. Recently there have been many problems with 1st nations land claims, wanting more government grants, and even in politics like the Meach Lake accord. Now if they have any problems with 1st nations, they can simply shut down their revenue of contraband cigarettes. The government finds it more cost effective to have this control than the tax dollars lost over the cigarettes. Also with most smokers buying contraband where possible the government can brag about their reduced cigarette sales as part of their effort to stop smoking. Its win win financially for the government. As an aside the 1st nations are setting themselves up for a huge class action lawsuit from smokers, just like we have seen in the US. They are the fall man for big tobacco that is propping them up (ever wonder where they get the tobacco and the machines?). So yes it is all about money.

Sin taxes are a favorite of the government. Think of one “sin” product that is not excessively taxed. Cigarettes, $10 for 10 cent of dried leaves. Beer $1.50 for 10 cents of water and rotten wheat. The tax rate is excessive on these things. The government gets away with it by strongly regulating so that we are begging for the product and overlook that we are being ripped out. I cannot find an exception to this pattern, you a welcome to suggest one.

Now for the “doing the right thing”. Nicotine replacement therapy, gum patches ect although ineffective are the feel good answer to smoking. Smokers should be encouraged to take that path to quit smoking and save all the healthcare dollars. Makes sense, but have you checked the price of nicotine gum, patches ect? To use them it will cost you MORE than it did to smoke at $10 per pack. Why? It’s not because what is in them, nicotine, its dirt cheap look at ejuice. 1 $20 bottle of e-juice has the same nicotine of $1000 worth of the patch. Drip some ejuice on a paper towel and tape it to your arm and you have the same thing. Where does these extra money go? Government and the pockets of big pharmaceutical companies who lobbied (bribe) the government. Again it’s all about money, when it’s cheaper to keep smoking.

Being aware of this, and holding the government accountable is what we need to do. It will be their next move.

The scary part is to avoid protest over the tax, they could effectively create a prohibition of the product so we are all begging to get it back and accept a ridiculous tax.

Be aware, as knowledge is power. Speaking to your MP as the sneaky slim ball they are, knowing their next step has more power than thinking they are going to do the right thing.

 

[rachelcoffe]

I appreciate the reply Rob, as always. However I must once more disagree.

I haven't seen anyone explain how a Canadian government would convincingly explain a sin-tax on vaping before their respective House, or to the people at large. The only argument I've heard that comes close is "lost tobacco tax revenue" - which as I explained in post #17 of this thread, is not a convincing argument for placing a sin-tax on vaping any more than it is a convincing argument for placing a sin-tax on oranges. (Please re-read post #17 of this thread for more detail.) Vaping doesn't burden society in the least - it actually relieves present burdens and will increase overall tax revenue, even without it being sin-taxed. Any legislative attempt to sin-tax it would fail. And we'd be right on top of it to make sure that was the case.

I honestly don't see that anything you said in post #27 of this thread negated the points I made in post #26, Rob. And my earlier post #22 deals with the possibility of prohibition that you raised. A prohibition on e-cigs or e-juice is next to impossible - would certainly fail & be repealed in the near-impossible circumstance that it ever passed in the first place - and to date, no one has so much as suggested the idea.

You & I are on the same side, Rob. We both care passionately about vaping & the cause to see it made available. We just have very different perspectives, that's all. But I remain convinced that optimism is a justified & essential component to successfully pressing our case.

Now, returning to the CBC's failure to report on Tuesday's ruling - even Reuters has reported on it!!! This is getting ridiculous. I urge everyone here to send an email to the CBC Ombudsman, asking why the CBC has failed to report on Tuesday's unanimous 3-0 ruling against the FDA in favour of electronic cigarettes. Here is his email:

ombudsman@cbc.ca

His name is Kirk LaPointe.

Rob, regardless of our disagreement in some areas...I trust you will agree that it is both strange & unacceptable for the CBC to censor Canadian knowledge of the ruling by failing to acknowledge it...while Nasdaq, BusinessWeek, Yahoo! News, ABC News, and even Reuters for goodness sakes (and many more) have all since reported on the ruling. We're not asking CBC to write how they feel about the news...we just want them to report it, objectively, when it occurs!

Happy vaping & please don't delay in contacting the Ombudsman, folks! Your email could be the one that makes the difference.

 

[Can_supplier]

Rob, regardless of our disagreement in some areas...I trust you will agree that it is both strange & unacceptable for the CBC to censor Canadian knowledge of the ruling by failing to acknowledge it...

I do. And I bet you can guess why, I think, they may have purposely done that..

Ties right back into what you are saying.. If the government tries to put a sin tax on something that isn't a sin, then there will be a public outcry. If the public doesn't YET know what the sin tax is being applied to, then it will be supported, as a tax that applies to others and not one’s self is a good thing....

Certain vendors have stated they have HC’s approval to sell PV’s. I believe them. But you will also notice HC hasn’t posted a retraction to their foolish position from March 09, regarding PVs.

There is a definite attempt to keep a lid on this things.

 

[DemonCleaner]

When it comes to regulatory issues re: Ecigs there is no debating that "Canadian Supplier" is indeed Debbie Downer.

LoL ...wah waaaaah *trombone sound*

 

[Dorkins]

I think the CBC is a little tied up with the federal government at the moment, as they are being investigated for wasting Canadian Taxpayers money. I think the idea that a TV station owned by the governement has the right to censor all of their "spending" is absolutely deplorable, and it doesn't surprise me that they're asleep at the wheel.

CBC seems to be a network for an older generation.

 

[rachelcoffe]

Hi folks! OK I just got an email from the CBC Ombudsman, which reads as follows:

---
Dear Ms. [my last name]:

The CBC's Office of the Ombudsman is independent of CBC program management and thus has no say in day-to-day programming decisions. However, I have shared your e-mail with senior information programmers so that they may be aware of your concerns.

Sincerely,

Kirk LaPointe
CBC Ombudsman
---

Since email addresses for those senior information programmers aren't public (at least, not that I can see)...next step will be to call up CBC & ask to be put in touch with them. Just in case Kirk's forwarding my email to them doesn't get the job done.

By the way Rob...I want to thank you sincerely for post #29 in this thread.

I was beginning to develop a persecution complex, lol. It means a lot to me to know I'm not crazy for wondering at the absence of CBC coverage re: the December 7th e-cig ruling! I just wanted you to know that it meant a lot to me for us to find some agreement, and I really appreciated it.

 

[rachelcoffe]

Alright, silly me - the email addresses for those senior information programmers were included in the reply from the CBC Ombudsman. He cc'ed the reply to them when he wrote to me.

Well, 2 days later, and still nothing on the CBC. 9 days have now passed, with not even the most token of reports or mentions of this historic e-cig ruling on CBC.

This despite the CBC's previous willingness to report several times on the case itself, in a manner that gave plenty of voice to the FDA's misinformation & negative take on vaping, but very little voice to the defendants (whom have now won - twice!). This despite Nasdaq, BusinessWeek, Yahoo! News, ABC News, Reuters, AP (Associated Press) and many more all having reported on the Dec. 7th ruling.

You are needed! We're not asking CBC to write how they feel about the news...we just want them to report it, objectively, when it occurs! An informed Canadian public matters. A non-censored CBC matters.

I urge everyone here to send an email to each of these senior information programmers at the CBC, asking why the CBC has failed to report on December 7th's unanimous 3-0 ruling against the FDA in favour of electronic cigarettes. Here are their email addresses:

Amanda.Pyle@cbc.ca
Bob.Campbell@cbc.ca
Esther.Enkin@cbc.ca
Gino.Apponi@cbc.ca
Jennifer.McGuire@cbc.ca

Happy vaping & please don't delay in contacting all of these senior CBC information programmers, folks! One of your emails could make the difference.

 

[Switched]

Our own Canadian Spikey. Do you do videos?

 

[rachelcoffe]

Our own Canadian Spikey. Do you do videos?

Switched...I'm honoured by the comparison!

As to videos...we'll see. It's definitely a possibility.

 

[NoizMaker]

Awesome stuff rachelcoffe, I think it's amazing that this thread is here! I protest silently every day by using e-cigs much in the same way Smokie does. I take my Omega out for a stroll, vape my eGo in Tim Hortons unless specifically asked not to, etc. The only rights we truly have anymore are the ones we are willing to stand up and take for ourselves.

It doesn't surprise me that CBC wouldn't cover the victory in e-cigarettes, not even in the slightest. Tax dollars are the name of the game and vapers pay a TON less in taxes than they would on a pack of cigarettes or on failed NRT's. With Canada paving the way in the "non-Smoking World" by being one of the first to draft in strict laws, I think it is safe to say that they loathe e-cigarettes, why? Well...

I find the non-smoking laws to be less about helping people quit than it is to remove a smokers freedom... Only being able to smoke outside ...... me off (as well as most other smokers), then came the other ridiculous laws we have all known for a while now. Not being allowed to smoke if there is an awning over you? Come on! None of their legislation convinced me to stop smoking (no surprise there). VAPING did that for me.. Effortlessly.

Fact is HC knows cigarettes are addictive, know NRT barely works but would sooner blame it on YOU when you fail. It's much more profitable this way... This is why smoking cessation is a billion dollar industry, because it is just that an industry. E-cigarettes get you out of that catch 22... Forever.

If we know our devices are safe to use and safe for everyone around us, then is it really that 'wrong' to use it wherever you want? I can't see how it could be.

Why do people lose it when they see you vaping? Is it really all that stange or complex of a device? No, it is because of the social stigma that has been forced down our throats about analogs.
1 in maybe 20 people I meet in Canada know about e-cigs, but most think there is no nicotine available in the juices or have bought an inferior product and decided it was all a scam like everything else. So I have made it my mission to always have a spare eGo, tip an LR510 and some alcohol swabs so I can let anyone interested try it.

I'll be sending off those e-mails shortly

 

[rachelcoffe]

Success!!!!!!

CBC News - Health - Tobacco firm to pay $151M to smoker's estate

The e-cig part is somewhat buried, as the headline may have indicated to you. Ideally, the story would have focused solely on electronic cigarettes. And the way the story is structured, with a headline about a tobacco firm being sued by the estate of a smoker who died from smoking...right next to a well-known photo of a Ruyan executive vaping on a PV...is certainly disingenuous. It subtly creates a nonsensical link in some people's minds between deadly smoking & healthy vaping. A link that has no bearing on reality.

But regardless of the negatives, the good news is we can now say that CBC has finally - however briefly - reported on the December 7th, 2010 ruling that was unanimously against the FDA & favourable to e-cigs. Yeah!

What's more, CBC even pre-emptively wedged in Wednesday's news from Boston University's School of Public Health! Here's the original link to that story from Boston U's own site - it is a very positive pro-vaping report of the study they conducted:

News Archive

Never let it be said that our efforts as vapers are wasted! Merry Christmas, happy Holidays & happy vaping everyone!

 

[NoizMaker]

Very cool. Still kind of hidden a little but a mention none-the-less.

 

[Can_supplier]

good work Rachel!! That's how you get it done!!

 

[Happy Jack]

Kudos to Rachel and all who followed her lead!

Proud to have you as our Spikey, Rachel!!!

It is SO nice to hear positive news up here!

Vape Happy, Vape Proud, Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and a Very Happy New Year!
Jack