Class Action

[Phalse]

quote....."its lack of chemicals"

is proof e-cigs are more healthy than smokes.


Quote
"The fact that we don't "KNOW" measn it can't be approved, sold, or whatever."

But we live in the united states. It is legal to sell these. They need to make a law to stop their sale before its illegal.
They are not arresting Johnson Creek people, nor all the others in the US selling them.It IS legal to sell these in the united states. Watch out for the IRS and retro-active nicotine tax, I have a feeling this is why online sites don't list an address. Not because of being arrested for selling, but for tax evasion and improper books after the tax gets put in.
I have no idea what this Ban is your talking about.

OHHHHH you guys all mean the TAX...I see what your saying. Your calling a TAX a BAN
They can Tax it.

Just because other countries flip out, don't think its going to happen here. Other countries flip-out about a lot of things and in the USA the only time we did was banning alcohol (which didnt last long). It's not going to happen to e-cigs, there is too much profit on tax of nic juice. Why are you guys even thinking the US would ban these. Please Stop. Please Stop Please Stop Please STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOP STOPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPP STOP STOPS TOP STOPS TOPST POST SPOTS TPOS STOPS TPSOTSO PT

You all live in other countries, or states in the middle of the US that voted for GEORGE BUSH where you dont even have head shops. The majority of the USA SELLS BONGS AT THE MINI MART OK VAPORIZERS ARE LEGAL HERE

The Republicans are a Dead party, sorry its over for you. You guys don't run the country and never will again. Young people are not republican. The people who run this country now are not scared of things like genetic research, technology and hate hiding the truth. If you hide the truth, even if fighting for the right cause, you are a liar. I feel this is the stance they take on this board. I think its cowardly.
Yes, I'm ...... about the war in Iraq, Yes, I hate Bush. No I didnt vote for him, YES i think its his fault the economy is screwed up, Yes I know there are other factors but a major part of the blame is on him, Yes, I think most republicans are older. YES in a way I think its the republican people who voted for him in the first place, YES i think they are stupid and responsible for some of the major problems in the world. Yes I'm LESS responsible than they are and I always hated bush and feel little responsibility except for shame in being part of the same human race, YES i almost hate them sometimes, YES I can forgive them without them even asking because they cant even admit this. Their only defense is saying, oh you didnt kill us with a gun before we voted for bush!
There will be NO GUN BAN, NO VAPORIZER BAN, NO NICOTINE BAN, NO SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH BAN, NO BAN ON TECHNOLOGY,
We are allowed almost everything rational, the only thing really being debated is weed.
We can buy anything thats reasonable, currently the US government has 0 unreasonable product bans, has the government banned anything *except weed* that you really want? NO they give us everything.

We don't live in reverse world where everything is illegal till approval. Also development goes on in countries besides the USA.
They have to pick out specific products and ban them. Thats how we get illegal drugs, they are named and illegal. All drugs are not illegal.
Also WORST CASE and I'm wrong about everything else I type here, one thing I'm not wrong about is the FDA can only ban nicotine juice/pre-filled carts, not vaporizer hardware. Vaporizers may not be able to be sold in "your" state but the majority of US states have legal pipe/..../vaporizer sales.

 

[Terraphon]

ooooooook.

Might be time to take a walk and get some air, there, buddy.

 

[XombieDad]

I have been wondering the same thing. How can hookah's, bongs, and the hundreds of other variously named paraphernalia be legal to sell, but all of a sudden PV's be made illegal? I can see an attempted ban/uber tax on the nicotine containing liquids, but what about the 0mg's? I know to some they are pointless, but I've been working my way down the strength spectrum and am currently on "low."

I can see myself being off nicotine completely in the not too distant future but I'd like to have some 0mg around for when I have a beer and get that smokin' jones going.

 

[DisMan]

Please keep in mind, too, that if statements are made claiming that irreparable harm will befall vapers if the products are banned, the burden will be upon the vaping community to prove such a claim. That means testing, trials, research, etc...

Probably not a good path to take at this time.

A statement is not irrefutable proof. It's just a statement. The courts are only interested in factual statements backed by research.

In the end, it is not the vaping communities job to justify the the safety of the product. It's the people making the statement that this is harmful that are the ones who need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

So far, nobody has done so. Hence why the FDA does not truly have power to prosecute in this matter. Who's gonna spend the money on the research? That's the side that will win.

 

[taz3cat]

Rat fink, I hope your real young and live to be 90 years old nd real healthy. When they come for you just remember you don't have a constitional right to live past 90 because it isn't in the consitution.

Some of you don't realize our goverment is running amuck and taking our rights away left and right and will continue to do so as long as people beleive it can't happen. Read a little history.

I am out of here and will not post in this thread again

 

[ratfink]

Rat fink, I hope your real young and live to be 90 years old nd real healthy. When they come for you just remember you don't have a constitional right to live past 90 because it isn't in the consitution.

The 14th amendment covers that rather nicely. So unless that is repealed I doubt very much I have anything to fear when I turn 90.

 

[Terraphon]

A statement is not irrefutable proof. It's just a statement. The courts are only interested in factual statements backed by research.

Correct...They don't want speculation, they want fact.

In the end, it is not the vaping communities job to justify the the safety of the product. It's the people making the statement that this is harmful that are the ones who need to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.

This is true FOR NOW. If the community were to file a class action on the grounds that banning vaping would cause harm then it WOULD be. The law requires that a person or persons who chose to make a "statement of fact" must back up that statement with proof. Therefor, if the community says that banning vaping would cause harm then the community would have the burden of proving its statement.

Also, at this time no official statement has been made claiming that it is harmful. What has been said is that they want to ban vaping/pv's/juice until they are able to prove that it is safe. There's a subtle difference there that makes all the difference in the eyes of the legal system.

So far, nobody has done so. Hence why the FDA does not truly have power to prosecute in this matter. Who's gonna spend the money on the research? That's the side that will win.

The FDA has the power to do anything they want...They've executed that power on MANY occasions and will continue to do so. Also, it's not about the research unless the results are so incredibly irrefutable that no one in their right mind could ever question it AND those results are made so public that no one could possibly sweep them under the rug.

The side that will win is the side that gets public opinion on their side and makes it so that the other "team" can't possibly continue the fight. This ain't just law, now. It's politics.

 

[DisMan]

The side that will win is the side that gets public opinion on their side and makes it so that the other "team" can't possibly continue the fight. This ain't just law, now. It's politics.

I totally disagree with that. Public Opinion was that we should *not* bail out Wall Street. Politicians did it anyway.

Politics and public opinion hardly go hand in hand. An public opinion is completely irrelevant in a court of law. If public opinion was relevant, Michael Jackson would be in prison. However, we have a legal system that does *the most correct* thing.

The FDA has the power to do anything they want...They've executed that power on MANY occasions and will continue to do so. Also, it's not about the research unless the results are so incredibly irrefutable that no one in their right mind could ever question it AND those results are made so public that no one could possibly sweep them under the rug.

The FDA has *attempted* to execute authority over many things. They have also been successfully sued for not doing the right thing. Courts have ruled against the FDA quite often, for many reasons.

The FDA is just a *part* of the government. They are not the "Commerce Police" They can *try* to pull things off the shelves...but it's always just an inconvenience. Look at Nico-Water, the one everybody likes to display as how powerful the FDA is. Nico-Water is still being sold, and has actually expanded a bit to a few manufacturers.

In the end, the FDA is a mere inconvenience.

 

[Terraphon]

You keep thinking that politics and money have nothing to do with this. I'm going to step away from this conversation because it's akin to debating religion.

Enjoy!

 

[DisMan]

You keep thinking that politics and money have nothing to do with this. I'm going to step away from this conversation because it's akin to debating religion.

Enjoy!

So, from my posts, you think I am thinking money and politics has no bearing?

Wow. You go ahead and keep ignoring what I'm saying. We're on the same page...yet you go "defeatist".

What politicians do has nothing to do with *public opinion*.
The first people to test the juice and get scientific evidence of the safety of the juice will be the ones who win.

So, that leads to:

Testing = Money = Scientific Evidence = Winner
Politics > Public Opinion + Money = Temporary Winner
Scientific Evidence + Court Cases - Politicians = Long Term Winner

This is how it's always been...and, if you don't believe that, you should really start wondering why black people are not slaves anymore...

 

[Vapor Pete]

I have been wondering the same thing. How can hookah's, bongs, and the hundreds of other variously named paraphernalia be legal to sell, but all of a sudden PV's be made illegal? I can see an attempted ban/uber tax on the nicotine containing liquids, but what about the 0mg's? I know to some they are pointless, but I've been working my way down the strength spectrum and am currently on "low."

I can see myself being off nicotine completely in the not too distant future but I'd like to have some 0mg around for when I have a beer and get that smokin' jones going.

Because bongs, hookahs, and "bowls", and all the other paraphenalia... is made to smoke TOBACCO out of! TOBACCO is LEGAL and APPROVED for human use. Christ, if I walk into a headshop around here there are signs that tell me if I say things like bowl, ...., or hookah, I will be thrown out of the store! You have to refer to them as water pipes, tobacco pipe, or multi-person tobacco device! Believe me, if PV's were used for tobacco, this forum probably wouldnt exist. I understand why people wonder about pot merchandise being sold as legal, but please take a moment to read what they're selling in those headshops before you post the question. Look at the big glass case with all the BONGS in it... it will say "WATER PIPES".... not ".... for marijuanna smoking"
My best,
-VP

 

[so2late4me]

The only reason making alcohol illegal failed is that drinkers got very creative about how to sneak, steal, smuggle and make alcohol. Many more lives were lost in the attempts to use alcohol when it was not legal than where lost before the laws were passed. When the gov. watched the body count rise undeniably. they could no longer justify the laws banning alcohol, as protecting the health and welfare of society. It is the same with Roe vs. Wade. What ever your opinion on that one the deciding factor in making it legal was that too many people were dying trying to get around the law. I believe it is also the reason many lawmakers are entertaining notions of legalizing pot. The people who want ( name the illegal item here) have gone to unimaginable lengths to continue with() and the ultimate body count shows the making () illegal caused more harm {and death} than good. Eventually they had to repeal laws to stop desperate actions being done. While i do not advocate violence, there must be some way to make people see that making pv's or e liquid would cause far more problems, concerns and dangers, than the use of these products ever could. Sadly we will probably have to stand by and watch many unnecessary injures and deaths before the governments will admit they are wrong. That is the real tragedy of the whole mess."Those Who will not Learn From History are doomed to repeat it". forgot who said it best but truest words ever spoken.

 

[Sumratio]

The only reason making alcohol illegal failed is that drinkers got very creative about how to sneak, steal, smuggle and make alcohol. Many more lives were lost in the attempts to use alcohol when it was not legal than where lost before the laws were passed. When the gov. watched the body count rise undeniably. they could no longer justify the laws banning alcohol, as protecting the health and welfare of society. It is the same with Roe vs. Wade. What ever your opinion on that one the deciding factor in making it legal was that too many people were dying trying to get around the law. I believe it is also the reason many lawmakers are entertaining notions of legalizing pot. The people who want ( name the illegal item here) have gone to unimaginable lengths to continue with() and the ultimate body count shows the making () illegal caused more harm {and death} than good. Eventually they had to repeal laws to stop desperate actions being done. While i do not advocate violence, there must be some way to make people see that making pv's or e liquid would cause far more problems, concerns and dangers, than the use of these products ever could. Sadly we will probably have to stand by and watch many unnecessary injures and deaths before the governments will admit they are wrong. That is the real tragedy of the whole mess."Those Who will not Learn From History are doomed to repeat it". forgot who said it best but truest words ever spoken.

The supposed death toll from smoking analogs should be a good enough reason not to ban them. When vapers get desperate and try brewing their own juice it could get real messy. The only possible reason to ban e-cigs unless some crazy medical problem comes up (doubtfull at this point) is pure unadulterated greed.

 

[b00stzx3]

All non-wooden, non-corncob pipes are illegal period. Al those head shops are selling Federally-illegal drug paraphenelia. Anything with a carb hole is drug parephenelia. Its just laws that aren't enforced, See Operation Pipedreams where the majority of shops busted were in conservative areas of western Pennsylvania and of course Chong since he's a celebrity. All that sutff they sell is illegal under federal guidelines period. Just thought I'd chime in

 

[SnarkyClark]

All non-wooden, non-corncob pipes are illegal period...

Not trying to be a PITA, but Meerschaum and Coral are used to make tobacco pipes as well. Have been for a very long time.

 

[Kimm]

I can see that studies need to be done on e-cigarettes and hope that they are started soon. What I can't understand is why, during the study process, the e-cigarettes wouldn't just carry a warning label instead of banning them. Cigarettes were never pulled from the shelves or banned while testing was going on. And when it was found out they were worse than first suspected, they simply had to attach a stronger warning label. The FDA leaves it up to the individual to read the label and make a personal decision. So what is the difference? Why not a warning label? This seems like the best objection to a government ban. They sure didn't make any tobacco company prove their product was safe.

And I will never buy the fact that the FDA wants to test the safety of e-cigarettes before approving them. They tested cigarettes, found out they kill and they are still legally sold. So it's not our health they're concerned about.

How much influence is the tobacco industry having on a possible ban?

 

[Oldnamenomore]

he Republicans are a Dead party, sorry its over for you. You guys don't run the country and never will again. Young people are not republican. The people who run this country now are not scared of things like genetic research, technology and hate hiding the truth. If you hide the truth, even if fighting for the right cause, you are a liar. I feel this is the stance they take on this board. I think its cowardly.
Yes, I'm ...... about the war in Iraq, Yes, I hate Bush. No I didnt vote for him, YES i think its his fault the economy is screwed up, Yes I know there are other factors but a major part of the blame is on him, Yes, I think most republicans are older. YES in a way I think its the republican people who voted for him in the first place, YES i think they are stupid and responsible for some of the major problems in the world. Yes I'm LESS responsible than they are and I always hated bush and feel little responsibility except for shame in being part of the same human race, YES i almost hate them sometimes, YES I can forgive them without them even asking because they cant even admit this. Their only defense is saying, oh you didnt kill us with a gun before we voted for bush!

go **** yourself every party has major flaws. Democrats are just as bad as Republicans just in different ways. keep your political views out of this they have no place here.