Class at Hospital - "Lithium battery in ecigarettes release carcinogenics." Help me respond to this?

[Bill's Magic Vapor]

The instructor makes a good point. We should never cook our batteries. I know I'm not gonna. We use batteries to power other things. If that use caused Lithium batteries to release carcinogens, I assure you, they would not be on the market. I work with Doctors every day and sometimes the God Complex, Know it all, attitude kicks in, and if they say it, it must be right. Of course, they are wrong, the only way lithium batteries are dangerous is when you heat them. Everyone that knows anything about battery safety knows this. That is not what we are doing with ecigs. We are not releasing carcinogens. Think about it, for the PC crowd, if our batteries were carcinogenic, we would have heard a line of attack along these lines eons ago. And they certainly would not be allowed in cell phones, etc., which are far more dangerous, emitting documented EM pollution, an area of research that I have been working on professionally for years. Sounds like the usual Doctor crap to me. As one previous poster mentioned, have them cite trials, studies, papers, etc., because they don't exist. I've done my research on vaping, and it's certainly better than the SAD, our water, our air and EMF. Good luck to you!

 

[Monkey7]

From Wikipedia (might be some good scholarly articles in the references)

Avoiding the lithium cobalt oxide cathode leads to a number of advantages. LiCoO2 is one of the more expensive components of traditional li-ion batteries, giving LFP batteries the potential to ultimately become significantly cheaper to produce. Lithium iron phosphate has no known carcinogenicity whereas lithium cobalt oxide does because it contains cobalt, which is listed as a possible human carcinogen by the IARC. LiCoO2 can lead to problems with runaway overheating and outgassing, particularly in the form of lithium polymer battery packs, making batteries that use it more susceptible to fire than LFP batteries. This advantage means that LFP batteries don't need as intense charge monitoring as traditional li-ion. However, LFP batteries tend to have lower (~60%) energy density in comparison to traditional li-ion.

I read that before posting. But, I thought Lithium Ion was different from Lithium Iron? Sorry if I'm wrong :/

The Revolution in Rechargeable Batteries: Lithium Iron Vs Lithium Ion

Ion is different that Iron, yes?

 

[Robino1]

What I'm finding on the Internet is that some batteries CONTAIN carcinogens. When you actually use the battery under the normal circumstances, the gases do not escape. Common sense tells us that if those gasses escape, the battery would be useless. It is when a battery vents then the gasses are released.

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/pdfImages/f2/f2d0b832-baaa-4ba9-bfee-6c82b7155a9d.pdf

In this MSDS report, it tells doctors and nurses what to do IF a patient comes after being exposed to a VENTED battery. Also how such a spill or leak from a battery should be cleaned up.

 

[footbag]

She needs to cite a reference. If what she says is accurate, there is a source. If there is no source, then what she's saying isn't accurate.

First, the risk of explosion is much greater then the risk of carcinogens. While the risk is small, it does happen. Some people cite radiation as a danger when it comes to cell phones. If the batteries were emitting toxins at dangerous levels, then I suspect this would be plastered on every news channel, and we wouldn't be using Lithium batteries anymore. We wouldn't be talking about radiation.

Lithium batteries can produce carcinogens, but so many household items and medical devices use lithium batteries that I'd be surprised if it was truly a danger. If it was, using a different type of battery or isolation of the battery would be a simple fix. That is of course if you could find a battery that doesn't produce toxins.

I'm don't believe a sealed battery will emit carcinogens, though. If that was the case, I'd bet a bunch of Tesla users would be upset. Cars heat up considerably more then an e-cig battery would. And the driver and passenger are sealed in there with them.

 

[awsum140]

Any battery warms when current is passing through it, a simple fact of physics. The batteries are sealed but do have a pressure relief vent in case they overheat and produce too much gas. That overheating is quite high, far higher than the heat produced from normal use, even with a sub-ohm coil and a chain vaper. IF lithium batteries were producing carcinogenics during normal use the cell phone industry would be out of business, the air around us would act as a carrier, think second hand smoke effect, and we would all be inhaling those carcinogens. The same would be true of laptops and they have a fan to make sure air is circulated that would further expose us to those nasty carcinogens. I suspect the lecturer is guilty of tailoring the "facts" to fit the desired outcome also known as disinformation for a specific, probably nefarious, goal.

A quick check of Battery University, a fairly recognized authority, shows that thermal runaway starts occurring at 150C, 302F. That temperature is so high that holding, let alone inhaling from, an e-cigarette would probably be impossible. Thermal runaway is when venting would start to occur and the temperatures I have cited are for lithium/cobalt batteries and are at the low end of the scale. Lithium/manganese is generally 100C higher in its thermal runaway, venting, temperature.

I, too, would suggest asking for a peer reviewed study document that supports the statements made and make that request during the class so that everyone is aware of what is really going on.

Just my opinion, worth what you're paying for it. Your results and mileage may vary. No warranty or guaranty is expressed or implied. Proceed at your own risk.

 

[Monkey7]

As a healthcare professional myself, I can tell you that many of these people will believe what they are told with no evidence to back it up, and pass this on as gospel to fit the current agenda.

Thanks Plum, I know you get where I'm coming from and agree with you. As I'm sure you know, nurses are (often) the lowest on the totem poll when it comes to supplying data, as they would certainly do to those with an MD behind their name. Not always, don't want to sound like I'm griping too much .. but it occurs more often than not.

I'm going to push for some written data and cross my fingers that 'they' don't become too annoyed with me.

 

[Robino1]

Found an older question and answer from 2011. I'm breaking the link by adding a space. Look at the second answer of the two answers given. Check out 'who' (see what I did there ) gave that second answer.

http ://greenanswers.com/question/do-lithium-ion-batteries-emit-radioactive-rays-an/

 

[Monkey7]

Any battery warms when current is passing through it, a simple fact of physics. The batteries are sealed but do have a pressure relief vent in case they overheat and produce too much gas. That overheating is quite high, far higher than the heat produced from normal use, even with a sub-ohm coil and a chain vaper. IF lithium batteries were producing carcinogenics during normal use the cell phone industry would be out of business, the air around us would act as a carrier, think second hand smoke effect, and we would all be inhaling those carcinogens.

I took them to mean that the carcinogens used a carrier agent, such as the vape itself/pg/vg, unlike cell batteries.

 

[mkbilbo]

Hello,

I attended a class at the hospital a few days ago. I'm a nurse and we occasionally have 'continued learning' meetings. Among the many topics covered were ecigs.

Paraphrasing slightly, the instructor (nurse) said:

'Lithium batteries in ecigarettes are known to be carcinogenic. When the lithium batteries become warm/hot, the carcinogenic fumes leak from the device and are inhaled.'

This portion of the meeting was very brief. She didn't mention any other so-called dangers and quickly moved on to another topic.

After the class, I did approach and ask if she had any literature on the topic, which she did not. That was Monday.

On Tuesday, I asked an ER MD on my shift if she knew anything about the lithium battery/ecig carcinogenic connection. She didn't, but suggested I speak with another MD (an oncologist). Yesterday, he was finally on my shift and I inquired. He stated, again paraphrasing slightly: 'If lithium batteries are heated, yes they emit carcinogens.' I followed up with ecigs specifically, to which he responded: 'If you're inhaling in close proximity to a heated lithium battery, you're breathing carcinogens' and off he went.

I went home and tried Googling anything/everything to find information on this supposed link, but came up with very little. Maybe I'm not searching accurately.

Now, let me state right now - No one can say anything that will pry my pv from my cold dead hands. But, I'm very curious now, given what I've been told this week from separate sources.

Can someone please enlighten me?

Note: I did search the forum before posting, using the keywords lithium battery / carcinogenic, and could not find anything. It appeared most of the posts were directed toward the myth of 'exploding batteres' and/or carcinogenics related to other things, but not lithium batteries. I apologize in advance if my question has been asked, and I missed it during my search.

Thanks

Wait... WHAT?

I hate to tell them this but the lithium ion battery is the most common rechargeable in use right now. It's in just about every single rechargeable device there is. Cell phones, tablets (like iPads), laptops, MP3 music players (like iPods)... you name it.

Yes, you should not eat your cell phone. You also should not cook your laptop. You will, indeed, be exposed to toxic chemicals. Especially as the battery overheats, bursts its casing, and catches fire.

Who are these people and why do they have licenses to practice any kind of medicine? At all? Anywhere? Ever?

Does this person think you light the battery on your PV and smoke the lithium? It's a freaking battery. It powers the heater coil in the coil head. The battery, itself, does not "heat up". Certainly, a dead short could cause a battery (any battery) to heat. But that's a fault in the system, not a design.

You know those batteries in cars? They heat up and catch fire too. Cause amazing fires when they do. Also, spew carcinogens. You can also find the same effect with plain old batteries you use in flashlights, lithium ions in hearing aids (and you stick those in your ears), alkaline batteries in your portable radios and anything else called "a battery".

All batteries are volatile. They have to be. If they were inert, they could not produce electricity. It's the nature of the beast. Overheat a battery, sure, you're going to be exposed to toxic chemicals. So don't cook your batteries over open flames or anything okay?

Sheesh.

I bet this person drove away in a toxic chemical expelling device I've heard called "a car". Irresponsibly spewing known carcinogens into the atmosphere to be breathed in by anybody nearby. Even children! What kind of monster would do that?

 

[awsum140]

One additional comment regarding cig-a-likes or autos. The battery, itself, is still sealed inside the outer tube. A small amount of air does pass through the tube to activate the air switch, but the battery is still a sealed unit, air does not pass through the battery.

 

[awsum140]

I took them to mean that the carcinogens used a carrier agent, such as the vape itself/pg/vg, unlike cell batteries.

That would seem to be a "leap of logic" that a carcinogen needed PG or VG to act as a carrier. If that was the case we could sit there and inhale auto fumes all day with no cancer risk at all!

 

[Monkey7]

Wait... WHAT?

I hate to tell them this but the lithium ion battery is the most common rechargeable in use right now. It's in just about every single rechargeable device there is. Cell phones, tablets (like iPads), laptops, MP3 music players (like iPods)... you name it.

Yes, you should not eat your cell phone. You also should not cook your laptop. You will, indeed, be exposed to toxic chemicals. Especially as the battery overheats, bursts its casing, and catches fire.

Who are these people and why do they have licenses to practice any kind of medicine? At all? Anywhere? Ever?

I hear you. Unfortunately, they are licensed. I added to my original post that I understood them to mean the ecigarette was different, in that it has a carrier agent, unlike cell phones, for example. So that, a patient is inhaling via the carrier agent of the vape itself/pg/vg, which is not the case in other Ion devices (phones, etc).

 

[awsum140]

One more comment, this whole thing has the "I read it on the internet so it has to be true" smell about it.

 

[mkbilbo]

One additional comment regarding cig-a-likes or autos. The battery, itself, is still sealed inside the outer tube. A small amount of air does pass through the tube to activate the air switch, but the battery is still a sealed unit, air does not pass through the battery.

Absolutely. In any normally functioning "auto" system, the battery is emitting nothing. Like any and all batteries, Li-Ions are sealed units. Designed to not allow the chemicals to escape. A leaking battery of any kind is bad.

Such as I may have lost a nice little "wireless" keyboard because I forgot to take the double-As out. I don't use it often so I didn't notice the cheap batteries it was shipped with had leaked. I think I salvaged the keyboard (haven't tested it yet) but, man, what a mess. And not something I wanted to touch. At least not without gloves on.

Wonder if this nurse realizes that any average hospital has more Li-Ion batteries in it than people? All that newer, smaller, rechargeable tech the medical types use? Lithium-ion powered. Even the non-rechargeable widgets are using Li-Ions. Those little digital thermometers nurses stick in your mouth? They got 'em.

Lithium makes good batteries...

 

[Zevyn]

Stinks of propaganda from pharmaceuticals to me.

 

[Train2]

I think you should definitely challenge them to change their presentation, as they've been misinformed.
You've got a ton of information indicating that what they must be referring to is that it's not a good idea to VAPORIZE YOUR BATTERY. But there's NO indication of what THEY SAID - that you get carcinogens off the battery when using a PV.

I'd point out that by telling people inaccurately that a PV vents carcinogens that they're basically telling folks to keep smoking...

 

[Monkey7]

Okay, a little update.

I just sent an email to my supervisor (not the same nurse from the meeting; that person floats to different medical centers), asking for a source for Monday's meeting. OT, my supervisor intimidates the lala out of me

I really thought I'd be able to pull something up online, quite easily. I've always been able to find some type of data on information disseminated through work - well, until now. I feel a mixture of bewildered that I'm not seeing anything to back up what they're telling us, and plain ignorant that I can't find any specific data.

Maybe I'm getting a taste of the latest, complete myth that's commencing to circulate the medical strata, I don't know.

I may be intimidated by (a few of) my superiors, but I'm tenacious, and I'm going to find out something, dangnit!

 

[ctippen]

Oh my,
does that mean the hospitals will have to quit using laptops, smartpads, Ipads, etc? Are there too many carcinogens in the hospital from using these devices? LOL, just lite up a vape and tell them to suck on that Sorry...just had to.

 

[BigBen2k]

I'd challenge the presenter, for studies and peer review. Lacking those, I'd call it speculation, and walk out of the presentation. There's no sense in being present to support propaganda.

FUD; just walk away.

It's unfortunate that the lack of truth is so well masked. On it's face, it looks like there's some merit, but on closer examination, it severely lacks proof; not the kind of thing that's easily sorted out, on the spot.

I'd blacklist the presenter

 

[mkbilbo]

I hear you. Unfortunately, they are licensed. I added to my original post that I understood them to mean the ecigarette was different, in that it has a carrier agent, unlike cell phones, for example. So that, a patient is inhaling via the carrier agent of the vape itself/pg/vg, which is not the case in other Ion devices (phones, etc).

No. No difference. None. Zero. Zip. Nada.

The battery powers a heating coil. The "atomizer". The battery, in all cases, is a sealed unit.

In fact, the "explosion" of batteries (and it's not just lithium-ion that can do this) is actually a catastrophic bursting of the casing. Which can happen with just about any battery that exists if something goes horribly wrong. A "dead short" will cause any--and all--batteries to overheat. The chemical reactions taking place will causes gasses to build up and the casing will, eventually, burst. This is what people take to be the "explosion". Which it isn't technically. But it's impressive when it happens.

The battery, itself, should never heat up at all. Maybe warm some under very, very, very heavy use but I've never had a Li-Ion be even "warm to the touch" playing around with electronic widgets (hobby thing). I take even a slight warming of the battery to mean "fault in the system".

I see other folks mentioning cell phones. That's not actually the battery causing the warmth. That's the circuitry. Integrated circuits (and other bits) generate heat when they run. That's why your computer and/or laptop have fans. The CPU in my machine right at this moment is 124 F (yeah, I'm that geeky, I have it monitored and can manually adjust the fans).

What actually happens in cell phones is since they are, essentially, radios and are meant to be mobile is they adjust their power as needed to "reach" the nearest tower. If you're on the edge of tower signals (I'm in a dip in the terrain and get mediocre signals here), cells will rev up their signals to get to the tower. Mine always run "hot" if I talk for more than a few minutes.

Pop out the battery, though, it shouldn't be all that warm even then. Not in a well designed system. The general heat the circuits are generating will, of course, warm the battery casing even if the battery itself is running cool as can be. And that is what happens with a PV/e-cig by the way.

The atomizer--which is a wholly separate unit--is a heater. It has a small coil of wire that's meant to heat up. I heavy vaper (such as myself) will notice the heat warming the PV casing a bit. It's not coming from the battery and moving up, it's coming from my clearo and moving down.

And the well designed systems account for this. The outer casing is metal right? It acts as a heat sink and radiates heat outward and away from the internal battery and circuits. Like, oh, every piece of electronics on the planet does.

(Suddenly, I'm wondering how tiny fans could be made to cool PVs? )

They're just flat wrong. Utterly, totally, might as well blame demons and pixies, wrong.

I have Twist batteries (Joyetech). They're manual batteries. No "auto" air tube thing. The battery is inside a sealed metal case. The battery itself is a sealed unit. Even a battery leak could not get into my clearo. At least not easily. If nothing else, gravity.

Also, I have disassembled disposables. I can prove the batteries are sealed units. I have some. Wanna see?

(I want the LEDs. They're tiny, tiny SMD type with conveniently presoldered wires. And the little metal tubes could be of use. The batteries in disposables probably could be recharged but I wouldn't. Instead, I'd rather they not end up in landfills so I accumulate dead batteries of all kinds until I can truck them to a recycling facility.)

So, no.

There is no essential difference between the use of the battery in an e-cig/PV and those in a cell phone. They are, in fact, the same tech. When Li-Ion was introduced, there were some nasty problems with fires and some dramatic footage (which you can find on YouTube still) and some recalls. That was a lot of years ago. I mean, a lot. Decade or more? The flaws in our first generation of Li-Ions was addressed and now they are probably the safest battery around. At least in terms of the commonly used batteries. As in, what you have in your car is "lead acid". Think about that. Lead. Acid.

Yum!

("Jumping" a car is about a billion times more risky than all the e-cigs ever made. And most people don't do it right and risk a fire or "explosion"... actually, rapid outgassing that seems "explosive".)

In all cases of the PV/e-cig, the vapor production takes place in a separate unit that is isolated from the battery. The battery only produces the electricity needed to heat the atomizer. Even cheap disposables that are single units, the insides are made up of isolated units. I can prove that. I can open one up and show you.