Clive Bates: Stop Demonising a Potentially Useful Product for Smokers

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DrMA

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Excellent piece. Thanks for posting.

The clarity of statements like these should give pause to any organization or professional with a genuine interest in public health:

«e-cigarettes are displacing smoking»

«being tough on e-cigarettes is being tough on the competitive alternative to cigarettes — and that may lead to more smoking and more ill-health than it prevents»

«excessive tough regulation of e-cigarettes give cigarettes and smoking an easy ride and effectively protects cigarette sales and causes more disease and death»

«ban on advertising [...] will protect cigarettes from competition»
 

Kent C

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Thanks for posting - grrrrreat article which is now stored in 'favorites/ecig articles :)

I'm with DrMA - here's the whole blurb - something that even some here at ECF don't totally get, along with the slippery slope that certain "reasonable" actions beget:

"The risk of regulation

The development most likely to put the e-cigarette market at risk is not the tobacco industry but excessive regulation. It might seem like a paradox, but at the heart of the regulatory challenge there is a ‘double negative’: being tough on e-cigarettes is being tough on the competitive alternative to cigarettes — and that may lead to more smoking and more ill-health than it prevents."

This is good enough to send to Representatives, doctors, local council, mayors, news media.....
 
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Moonbogg

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Great article, but it misses the entire point. Again, it has nothing to do with public health or any legitimate concern. The article was great and was logical and correct, but it didn't address what is happening. Powerful industries are protecting their interests by exerting all of their weight and influence in an effort to cripple or destroy vapor products, period.
 

Kent C

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Oh Clive knows all that, to be sure. But you can't effect change from that point of you, lest he is considered for a Tin Foil Hat. :)

Yep, and 'powerful industries' don't get that much power without gov't help. And that's not tin foil - that's easily shown as fact. Just imagine what would happen to those 'powerful industries' without the deeming. :) How would RJR shut down cignot.com? or nHaler, gotvapes, madvapes, Rocky Mountain Vapes, or Ahlusion, Mt.Baker, or AVE ;)
 

DrMA

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Yep, and 'powerful industries' don't get that much power without gov't help. And that's not tin foil - that's easily shown as fact. Just imagine what would happen to those 'powerful industries' without the deeming. :) How would RJR shut down cignot.com? or nHaler, gotvapes, madvapes, Rocky Mountain Vapes, or Ahlusion, Mt.Baker, or AVE ;)

Indeed! Not tin foil at all, but rather demonstrable fact:
BBC News - Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
 

Kent C

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Indeed! Not tin foil at all, but rather demonstrable fact:
BBC News - Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

Won't argue that again - it's fascism not oligarchy :) But just FYI, here's one of the professors who wrote the 'study' from Princeton, Martin Gilens, in an interview regarding the 'study':

Scholar Behind Viral 'Oligarchy' Study Tells You What It Means

"What are the three or four most crucial factors that have made the United States this way?

Very good question. I'd say two crucial factors. One central factor is the role of money in our political system, and the overwhelming role that affluent individuals that affluent individuals and organized interests play, in campaign finance and in lobbying. And the second thing is the lack of mass organizations that represent and facilitate the voice of ordinary citizens. Part of that would be the decline of unions in the country which has been quite dramatic over the last 30 or 40 years. And part of it is the lack of a socialist or a worker's party."

Is that what you're trying to convey with your link, DrMA?

The good professor would not likely agree that it is gov't that is the cause, not the industries. Again, without the gov't FDA deeming, BT is on their own and have no power over the ecig industry. If they did, then that would be Oligarchy, but they don't have that power without gov't, and that is Fascism - an early form of socialism or it's precursor perhaps.

Oh, and the other professor, Benjamin I Page of Northwestern?? Here's one of his books:

Marxism and Spirituality: An International Anthology: Benjamin Page: 9780897892919: Amazon.com: Books
 

DrMA

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IMO, the cause-effect attribution between industry and govt is confounded in the US, particularly in the case of tobacco.

I'm inclined to think that the FSPTCA and PACT were the brainchild of industry (Tobacco Control Industry, BT, BP) and well-financed special interest groups from the ANTZ terrorist network (i.e. cause). The govt only responded to these pressures (i.e. effect) and also happened to find ways to profit from the enterprise. I do not think govt decided unilaterally to demonize smokers in an effort to propel otherwise unsuspecting industries to market dominance, as would be the case made by the fascism model. Thus, imo, the tobacco situation is clearly a case of oligarchy, where industry interests co-opted govt forces to do their bidding, setting up the largest public-private joint venture in history, which quickly expanded into a global-scale cartel.

The situation today may appear different because govt has become addicted to the proceeds from the tobacco racket and are now attempting on their own (i.e. independent of industry pressure) to stop anything that may threaten the long-term prospects of their tobacco income. That being said, powerful industry and special interest forces are still at play and are still part of the same cartel, all profiting from the the same illness and deaths of millions of smokers.

For the more general case, the professor said «Government policy-making over the last few decades reflects the preferences [...] of economic elites and of organized interests.» That does not say anything about who started it. However, as I discussed in my post here, BT views FDA as a pillar of their business model. And govt agencies in service to industry or special interests is the very definition of oligarchy.
 

Kent C

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IMO, the cause-effect attribution between industry and govt is confounded in the US, particularly in the case of tobacco.

I'm inclined to think that the FSPTCA and PACT were the brainchild of industry (Tobacco Control Industry, BT, BP) and well-financed special interest groups from the ANTZ terrorist network (i.e. cause). The govt only responded to these pressures (i.e. effect) and also happened to find ways to profit from the enterprise. I do not think govt decided unilaterally to demonize smokers in an effort to propel otherwise unsuspecting industries to market dominance, as would be the case made by the fascism model. Thus, imo, the tobacco situation is clearly a case of oligarchy, where industry interests co-opted govt forces to do their bidding, setting up the largest public-private joint venture in history, which quickly expanded into a global-scale cartel.

The situation today may appear different because govt has become addicted to the proceeds from the tobacco racket and are now attempting on their own (i.e. independent of industry pressure) to stop anything that may threaten the long-term prospects of their tobacco income. That being said, powerful industry and special interest forces are still at play and are still part of the same cartel, all profiting from the the same illness and deaths of millions of smokers.

For the more general case, the professor said «Government policy-making over the last few decades reflects the preferences [...] of economic elites and of organized interests.» That does not say anything about who started it. However, as I discussed in my post here, BT views FDA as a pillar of their business model. And govt agencies in service to industry or special interests is the very definition of oligarchy.

I don't want to distract from the Clive article so I'll just say, I disagree and most likely have misjudged your views.
 
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