https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/f...toxin-found-in-juuls-nicotine-vaping-liquids/
FYI. Discussion if you want.
FYI. Discussion if you want.
Contaminated Juul pods
- Thread starter fiddleshe
- Start date
- th_trl_thread_readers 0
-
- Tags
- contaminated juul pods
- Status
First part is a relief. Second part is at least they're finally consistently getting this part (bold) right.
Finding "detectable levels" of something is meaningless -- unless of course your agenda is for the press to produce scare-mongering hit-pieces.
Our ability to detect stuff in minuscule concentrations has outstripped our common sense. Let me send a sample of water from your tap (or even from some bottle that you bought at the store) out for analysis and I bet it will contain detectable levels of quite a few scary sounding things; things that known bad above some concentration, but the fact that they're detectable in your water doesn't mean the water is unsafe to drink.
Unless someone tells you the actual quantities or levels detected, and you compare those to to levels that have been shown to have ill effects, the fact that something was "detected" is meaningless.
Chronic exposure to glucan at what level?
Oh, and how does that compare to chronic exposure to tobacco smoke?
Last edited:
Does it look like that microbial toxin in the other dude's tank? Eww.
I enlarged the picture that guy posted.
"He noted that the glucan found in Juul pods is not related to the current vaping-related illness in the U.S. Health officials believe that illness, known as “EVALI” (for “e-cigarette or vaping product use-associated lung injury”), is related mainly to black-market marijuana vaping liquids laced with Vitamin E acetate."
Like too many articles and mass media reports on the subject, two relevant facts relating to the so-called 'vaping illness' are either omitted or only mentioned in passing. The above is one of them.
Then, there's the fact that vaping has been around for more than a decade, while this rash of problems popped up in the past year. There's a concerted effort to paint this as a problem intrinsic to vaping. The effort has been effective in demonizing vaping and raising red flags among the uninvolved public.
This article, and others like it, could help a lot if the masses are exposed to it. But the propagandistic, fear mongering reports still dominate. I get the feeling someone in charge of my local TV Station's news department is on a personal crusade against vaping.
Like too many articles and mass media reports on the subject, two relevant facts relating to the so-called 'vaping illness' are either omitted or only mentioned in passing. The above is one of them.
Then, there's the fact that vaping has been around for more than a decade, while this rash of problems popped up in the past year. There's a concerted effort to paint this as a problem intrinsic to vaping. The effort has been effective in demonizing vaping and raising red flags among the uninvolved public.
This article, and others like it, could help a lot if the masses are exposed to it. But the propagandistic, fear mongering reports still dominate. I get the feeling someone in charge of my local TV Station's news department is on a personal crusade against vaping.
Yep, this is pretty much the story with everything possibly dangerous found in vapor.
Formaldehyde, Metals, whatever. Its always the same.
No one ever tells you "how much". Like it doesnt matter. Compare it to air (you'll find metals in air, too) and cigarette smoke, make a graph for every fool to understand. But no, that would be very much in favor of vaping, cant have that.
Well, I wish they identified the precise class they found as forms of Glucan are used as dietary supplements, can stimulate the immune system (maybe why they worry about lung tissue) and can have anti-cancer properties. There are different Glucans with varying structure. To suggest using it as a marker for fungal contamination is kinda weird, as it can be found separately from actual fungal contamination of a solution, and as they point out, may have occurred from just one of the components used in mixing the liquid. But I'll give it a pass on the findings, as it's a PR blurb and not the original source article, which I'm in no mood for hunting down on an early Saturday morning I had planned to sleep in.
What's also funny is it was found in tobacco and menthol, but not in flavors. Good thing we banned the flavors.
What's also funny is it was found in tobacco and menthol, but not in flavors. Good thing we banned the flavors.
Last edited:
There are all kinds of "detectable" things we would be shocked to find out are allowable in foods and beverages. Of course the USDA inspects things for compliance and many if not all food manufacturers at most, if not all levels try real hard to keep them out of tonights dinner but the rules allow 'detectable' amounts to be present.
The modern day press believe they have a winner in this anti-vaping campaign and just love to see their name smeared across topics meant to scare the un-learn-ed population into thinking vaping is the kissing cousin of typhoid fever.
I remember in the 90's when tri-hallow-methane was discovered in the water supplied by plastic pipes. Chlorine in the water reacted with the plastic and "trace" amounts were discovered in water tanks. "But how much does it take to harm a human mr scientist?" "Well studies predict 2 tables spoons a day for 50 years might cause cancer". "Ok so how much is in the water?" "Good question, glad you asked, if one drinks 19 gallons a day for the next 3 decades we think there's a small chance we could get some form of cancer".
The crowd chants in unison "ban plastic water pipes".
True story.
Good or bad, blame it on things being learned in zero gravity environs through the space station program. That has done a lot to advance how scientists can break down combined ingredients to the molecule right here on earth. If I remember correctly they can now see the ingredients molecules are made of. And what those things are made of.
The modern day press believe they have a winner in this anti-vaping campaign and just love to see their name smeared across topics meant to scare the un-learn-ed population into thinking vaping is the kissing cousin of typhoid fever.
I remember in the 90's when tri-hallow-methane was discovered in the water supplied by plastic pipes. Chlorine in the water reacted with the plastic and "trace" amounts were discovered in water tanks. "But how much does it take to harm a human mr scientist?" "Well studies predict 2 tables spoons a day for 50 years might cause cancer". "Ok so how much is in the water?" "Good question, glad you asked, if one drinks 19 gallons a day for the next 3 decades we think there's a small chance we could get some form of cancer".
The crowd chants in unison "ban plastic water pipes".
True story.
Good or bad, blame it on things being learned in zero gravity environs through the space station program. That has done a lot to advance how scientists can break down combined ingredients to the molecule right here on earth. If I remember correctly they can now see the ingredients molecules are made of. And what those things are made of.
Last edited:
Bacteria is bad, y'all.
Oh wait, wait you need GOOD bacteria in your gut for it to function, how is this even I have not been taught to think yet...
*head explodes.*
I swear, sometimes I wanna get real famous. Then start my personal "critical thinking and logic course." The fame would be a bioproduct, I just want to teach people how to do this. Okay I do it at my job, but that's a "one starfish" kind of situation. It can be frustrating, just like passing Virginia drivers,. That is the worst state ever for like, hanging out in the left lane. My husband got so upset one time, he actually pulled over to let me drive because he was scared he would hit someone purposefully.
I started using my mind control to get them to move over. I had some mild success with it. But it was still, passing ONE Virginia driver, hanging out in the left lane to navel gaze, at a time.
Anna
Oh wait, wait you need GOOD bacteria in your gut for it to function, how is this even I have not been taught to think yet...
*head explodes.*
I swear, sometimes I wanna get real famous. Then start my personal "critical thinking and logic course." The fame would be a bioproduct, I just want to teach people how to do this. Okay I do it at my job, but that's a "one starfish" kind of situation. It can be frustrating, just like passing Virginia drivers,. That is the worst state ever for like, hanging out in the left lane. My husband got so upset one time, he actually pulled over to let me drive because he was scared he would hit someone purposefully.
I started using my mind control to get them to move over. I had some mild success with it. But it was still, passing ONE Virginia driver, hanging out in the left lane to navel gaze, at a time.
Anna
"We acknowledge several limitations. We tested only for contamination of samples from cartridges and e-liquids, which may differ from other types of EC products, such as second-generation (pens), third-generation (tanks/MODs), and fourth-generation (pods) devices. We did not test multiple samples of the same product to assess variation among different batches or packages of the same product. In addition, we identified endotoxin and glucan in samples from cartridges and bottles of e-liquids, but we did not evaluate contamination of aerosols inhaled by users. ..."
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/EHP3469
Well gee... If you are going to spend all that NIOSH Grant Money to put e-Liquids under a microscope, wouldn't you kinda Want to Know if anything you found in an e-Liquid actually made it into a User's Lungs?
Or is that crossing the Rubicon of Common Sense?
Is this one of those Studies were they try to Scare the Public about how Raw Chicken is loaded with Pathogens? But omit telling you that Simple cooking it Kills them?
https://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/doi/10.1289/EHP3469
Well gee... If you are going to spend all that NIOSH Grant Money to put e-Liquids under a microscope, wouldn't you kinda Want to Know if anything you found in an e-Liquid actually made it into a User's Lungs?
Or is that crossing the Rubicon of Common Sense?
Is this one of those Studies were they try to Scare the Public about how Raw Chicken is loaded with Pathogens? But omit telling you that Simple cooking it Kills them?
@zoiDman thanks for the link. Reads like a graduate student’s summer project with simple to do testing and lots of data massaging in SPSS. My favorite is from the discussion.
“Although no scientific evidence supports a hypothesis that current observed levels of endotoxin and glucan in ECs raise health concerns, adverse responses of respiratory and immunological systems to exposure to endotoxin and glucan in epidemiologic studies (responses such as reduced lung function; increase in nonatopic asthma, bronchial hyper-responsiveness and peripheral leucocyte count; inflammation; and airflow obstruction) suggest the potential effects on the inhalation exposure route during EC smoking (Carnes et al. 2017; Castellan et al. 1987; Lai et al. 2012, 2015; Maheswaran et al. 2014; Thorn and Rylander 1998; Thorne et al. 2015).”
So it’s pure speculation that they admit doesn’t even rise to the level of a hypothesis. I do like the parts about cigarette smoke having high levels of endotoxins as well. I would love to see a side by side comparison.
Bottom line, facilities need to use clean techniques throughout the process, from the production of the components, through mixing and bottling, or into cartridges. Needless to say the cartridge could have been contaminated before ever being filled. The entire take home message is do your stuff cleanly as anything can have traces of contamination along the road from basic components to end product.
It might have been more interesting if they tested components obtained from sourced likely used in manufacturing like PG, VG, nic concentrate, and an assortment of flavorings. Also taking retail empty cartridges and see if there’s anything to find in there. Let’s face it, this stuff isn’t manufactured to be sterile syringes or anything. Nor does it have to be.
“Although no scientific evidence supports a hypothesis that current observed levels of endotoxin and glucan in ECs raise health concerns, adverse responses of respiratory and immunological systems to exposure to endotoxin and glucan in epidemiologic studies (responses such as reduced lung function; increase in nonatopic asthma, bronchial hyper-responsiveness and peripheral leucocyte count; inflammation; and airflow obstruction) suggest the potential effects on the inhalation exposure route during EC smoking (Carnes et al. 2017; Castellan et al. 1987; Lai et al. 2012, 2015; Maheswaran et al. 2014; Thorn and Rylander 1998; Thorne et al. 2015).”
So it’s pure speculation that they admit doesn’t even rise to the level of a hypothesis. I do like the parts about cigarette smoke having high levels of endotoxins as well. I would love to see a side by side comparison.
Bottom line, facilities need to use clean techniques throughout the process, from the production of the components, through mixing and bottling, or into cartridges. Needless to say the cartridge could have been contaminated before ever being filled. The entire take home message is do your stuff cleanly as anything can have traces of contamination along the road from basic components to end product.
It might have been more interesting if they tested components obtained from sourced likely used in manufacturing like PG, VG, nic concentrate, and an assortment of flavorings. Also taking retail empty cartridges and see if there’s anything to find in there. Let’s face it, this stuff isn’t manufactured to be sterile syringes or anything. Nor does it have to be.
So, the most contaminated pods are the only on the market now?
I fear that I may be Snooty for awhile after reading an official Harvard paper. Please ignore.
I fear that I may be Snooty for awhile after reading an official Harvard paper. Please ignore.
What to me is Disturbing is the Systemic Disconnect between what Researchers say they are finding. And what the Average Media Outlet reports as implied causality based on what a researcher finds.
There is Seldom a Comparison to given a Lay-Reader a point of reference as to say the Amount of Toxins found in e-Liquids verses the Amount of Toxins found in municipal Drinking Water.
A published Research Material has a Check n' Balance on it via the Peer Review process. But where is the Peer Review process on what a Media Outlet publishes and calls "Science"?
The Vast Majority of what the Average person reads Isn't science anymore. Or even what Many/Most studies find. It is Op-Ed under the guise of being Science.
All true, but as to this specific story that article was not in any sort of mainstream news media. It’s a blurb in a newsletter hyping the research being done at the institution. They want it to look like their institution is doing all sorts of worthy work to hopefully get more donations to their endowment.
I’m not a fan how much of science is (mis) represented in the general news media. This particular blurb isn’t exactly like breaking news on all the cable channels.
It never ends does it? (the media anti-vaping BS)
Here's a new one (OK, I just made it up as an example) Researchers discover people vaping e-cigarettes are exposed to 407.4 parts per million of CO2 (what a coincidence... the exact amount found in the air we breath) Government considering creating new "carbon tax" for vape products because people using these products are exhaling all that CO2 (in fact more because of how respiration works) HaHa... hope you get my humor
Here's a new one (OK, I just made it up as an example) Researchers discover people vaping e-cigarettes are exposed to 407.4 parts per million of CO2 (what a coincidence... the exact amount found in the air we breath) Government considering creating new "carbon tax" for vape products because people using these products are exhaling all that CO2 (in fact more because of how respiration works) HaHa... hope you get my humor
The problem is that some sources may write a Balanced article that includes things like a direct link to the Study, the Studies Methodology and Limitations, and steer clear of Enhancing (or even Inventing) a Conclusion that the Study Authors did not reach. But these sources are Vastly outnumbered by Banner Headlines about Microbes in e-Liquids. Or my favorite... "New Hidden Danger found Lurking in e-Liquids".
Havard e-Liquid toxins - Google Search
Be glad it wasn’t covered like this
Maggots, rat hair, mouse poop and more: Gross things the FDA allows in food
Maggots, rat hair, mouse poop and more: Gross things the FDA allows in food
- Status
