FDA Could the FDA really regulate E-Liquid??

[Bryong70]

e-liquid is juice with nicotine, not everyone vapes with nicotine in their juice, I for one, on occasion. The way I see it, many businesses will change the way they make e-liquids. Business will start mixing e-liquid flavors without nicotine, possibly selling the nicotine separately. The FDA could not possibly regulate flavorings that do not contain nicotine. The consumer will buy nicotine at a strength they wish and mix it themselves, vape users will all become DIY mixers. Of course some large businesses will make e-liquid with nicotine, that will be FDA regulated. But I see many making it without.
This will also spawn rebranding and new terminology for e-liquids, no longer calling it e-juice or e-liquid, but something different. E-liquid right now, that does not contain nicotine is basically the same as MiO Liquid Water Enhancer, MiO is nothing more than PG and artificial flavoring / sweeteners. Hell you could vape it if you wanted to.

To, me there are way too many loop holes.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

We could get into the weeds here, and talk about whether 0% e-liquid which is "intended or anticipated for use" as part of a "reguated tobacco product" would be covered. But generally speaking I think you're right ... the FDA would be wasting its time chasing vendors of 0%, especially since it's so easy and safe to DIY. I'm vaping my own right now

I also like your post because there's a 0% cessation path which doesn't get a lot of attention. 0% vaping plus (if nec'y) BP-supplied NRT.

Unfortunately CASAA and many other observers have concluded that the FDA is very serious when it says that it intends to regulate "components or parts" of covered tobacco products. This means equipment is going to be tricky (CASAA thinks that it will be regulated out of existence, as do many observers). And then of course there's e-liquid w/ nic. in it. (Including high-concentration nicotine base, of course.) That will surely be regulated.

But as long as you can buld your own puck mod, and are content to buy your own flavorings, you will not be affected. Sadly, millions of smokers may not take advantage of the 0% cessation pathway because of the unavailability of equipment. And it's not at all clear that the 0% market will support many vendors such as the helpful local vape shops who are spreading the word that there's more to life than cigAlikes.

Finally, it's worth mentioning that many vapers don't say "goodbye" to nicotine immediately. Whether NRT would work for them as a supplement during those critical early days and weeks of the transition isn't clear. Every one of them who fails is at risk of becoming a statistic.

That's something that should concern all of us.

 

[tombaker]

To, me there are way too many loop holes.

Your assessment is correct. The ability to vape Zero-Nic juices and the hardware that accomplishs that, is totally outside of control of the FDA, the FDA has already said that Nicotine outside of Tobacco derived is outside of its domain also.

The available workarounds make it more likely that the FDA will regulate in a way that they keep control,
rather than ripping the entire Sky out of the world, and getting slammed down by the courts again.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

EDIT: added "special purpose" before batteries to clarify that this is about non-generic batteries such as EGOs etc.

All the credible experts seem to agree that everything ls likely to be regulated out of existence besides the cigAlikes made by BT and a handful of "big vapor" companies who can afford the very high fees needed to create a credible appication and (if necessary) the legal costs for fighting the FDA in court.

Products containing sealed cartridges with 0% e-liquid can still be marketed. However if there are SPECIAL-PURPOSE batteries and other equipment which is compatible with an existing "tobacco product" (anything containing nicotine), the FDA has indicated its intent to treat that equipment as a "component or part" of a "covered tobacco product.".

 

[Jman8]

Any credible experts that wish to go on record saying 0% nicotine products will be regulated out of existence?

Anyone?

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

EDIT: Words "special-purpose" added in front of "batteries."

Any credible experts that wish to go on record saying 0% nicotine products will be regulated out of existence?

Anyone?

I'm no expert. But Mitch Zeller is the head of the FDA's Center for Tobacco Products. So if the 0% products are marketed with equipment which is "intended or anticipated for use with a covered tobacco product" then there could be a problem. he says. (We're talking about SPECIAL-PURPOSE batteries here, refillable cartridges, atomizers, etc.).

This is because all of those things may be used as "components or parts" of a "covered tobacco product:" FDA Deeming Teleconference 4/24/2014 - YouTube (especially listen to Greg Conley's Q at 14:00).

0% e-liquid by itself could not be regulated accordiing to Zeller (he's an "expert" I think).

Could the FDA regulate a product like VitaCig containing 0% e-liquid which is sold in a sealed cartridge and which apparently has no parts that are usable for a "covered tobacco product" ?

No one (expert or otherwise) has yet suggested that the FDA could do that.

 

[Dave_in_OK]

Any credible experts that wish to go on record saying 0% nicotine products will be regulated out of existence?

Anyone?

I'm no expert but IMO The 2 main reasons given by antz to support bans have been that e-cigs re-normalize smoking and may be a pathway to smoking (total BS btw). No need for nicotine to be present for those arguments to be used. What will be banned in next ten years is anybody's guess but when it comes to zealots anything is possible.

 

[Bryong70]

I'm no expert. But Mitch Zeller is the head of the FDA's Center for Tobacco Products. So if the 0% products are marketed with equipment which is "intended or anticipated for use with a covered tobacco product" then there could be a problem. he says. (We're talking about batteries here, refillable cartridges, atomizers, etc.).

This is because all of those things may be used as "components or parts" of a "covered tobacco product:" FDA Deeming Teleconference 4/24/2014 - YouTube (especially listen to Greg Conley's Q at 14:00).

0% e-liquid by itself could not be regulated accordiing to Zeller (he's an "expert" I think).

Could the FDA regulate a product like VitaCig containing 0% e-liquid which is sold in a sealed cartridge and which apparently has no parts that are usable for a "covered tobacco product" ?

No one (expert or otherwise) has yet suggested that the FDA could do that.

People will then just start buying components, batteries, etc, from overseas, which many of them are made anyways. It is a concern for US retailers I totally agree.

 

[Miata GT]

Banning batteries doesn't seem possible. A buddy of mine is a flashlight enthusiast (funny story: he was in to flashlights long before I even heard of vaping and I thought he was nuts showing me his high-end and unique flashlight 'mods') and they use the same high discharge batteries we do.

The batteries are not just for vaping.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Any credible experts that wish to go on record saying 0% nicotine products will be regulated out of existence?

Anyone?

Take a listen to Tuesday's VP Live show from this thread.. the FDA is apparently going after zero-nic, too...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...ta-conference-fda-proposal-vp-live-radio.html


And no, don't be silly... BT will be able to afford to keep their zero-nic pre-filleds on the market...

Besides, DIY'ers will be popping up all over the place.. Can't exactly prevent people from heading down to the pharmacy & picking up some VG & distilled water, then on their way home stop at the supermarket for some bakery flavorings...

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Point taken. I added the words "special purpose" in front of "batteries" in my post. I'm talking about EGOs and spinners and the like. Stuff that's only used for vaping.

Bryong70, try buying tobacco cigarettes from overseas. You may be able to get one or two shipments, but it's not very reliable. If a vendor succeeds in building up a small market, US customs will start siezing it.

Banning batteries doesn't seem possible. A buddy of mine is a flashlight enthusiast (funny story: he was in to flashlights long before I even heard of vaping and I thought he was nuts showing me his high-end and unique flashlight 'mods') and they use the same high discharge batteries we do.

The batteries are not just for vaping.

 

[Bob Chill]

I may be too optimistic and I've said this numerous times in the past. I just don't see how they can ban hardware and even if they did the loopholes and workarounds are enormous. Not to mention how hard it will be to police intestate and international commerce. The parts are stupid simple. The devices we use are incredibly low tech. A battery, piece of resistance wire, piece of wick, and tank. All of which is readily available for multiple other uses. I'm not a machinist at all but I'm 100% sure I can build my own RDA from stuff on the shelves of home depot or ace hardware.

I'm of the mindset that the FDA simply wants to control the industry with the least resistance. It all starts and ends with the nic. There's the control. Why bother going down cloudy and muddy waters of hardware.

On the flip side, the hardware could be made obsolete if bottled juice disappears and everything has to be in a sealed carto. In some ways it's too late for that but I wouldn't rule it out at all.

 

[aikanae1]

They can prevent Visa / Mastercard and all the others from accepting payment including foriegn suppliers using Paypal. This eliminates pre-paid cards. That's why you can't buy eastern european cigarettes over the net. This also applies to nicotine. They don't really need to ban much more. Save your 510 connections.

I'm not sure if foriegn suppliers can use Dwolla or Popmoney. Bitcoins is do able, however I don't see mainstream using bitcoins much. I don't think Allpay operates in the states.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

We can build our own puck mods. But there is a concern that existing smokers may not be as likelly to switch if they can't buy off-the-shelf equipment. I'm not sure I would've, anyway.

As I said earlier - try ordering tobacco cigarettes off the web from a foriegn vendor. You might get the first shipment. But enentually if the vendor gets noticeable, US customs will start siezing their shipments.

I may be too optimistic and I've said this numerous times in the past. I just don't see how they can ban hardware and even if they did the loopholes and workarounds are enormous. Not to mention how hard it will be to police intestate and international commerce. The parts are stupid simple. The devices we use are incredibly low tech. A battery, piece of resistance wire, piece of wick, and tank. All of which is readily available for multiple other uses. I'm not a machinist at all but I'm 100% sure I can build my own RDA from stuff on the shelves of home depot or ace hardware.

I'm of the mindset that the FDA simply wants to control the industry with the least resistance. It all starts and ends with the nic. There's the control. Why bother going down cloudy and muddy waters of hardware.

On the flip side, the hardware could be made obsolete if bottled juice disappears and everything has to be in a sealed carto. In some ways it's too late for that but I wouldn't rule it out at all.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

They can prevent Visa / Mastercard and all the others from accepting payment including foriegn suppliers using Paypal. This eliminates pre-paid cards. That's why you can't buy eastern european cigarettes over the net. This also applies to nicotine. They don't really need to ban much more. Save your 510 connections.

I'm not sure if foriegn suppliers can use Dwolla or Popmoney. Bitcoins is do able, however I don't see mainstream using bitcoins much. I don't think Allpay operates in the states.

The FDA is seeking to split the vaping industry..

Either go through BT, or go the DIY & black-market route...


Awesome!

 

[shelley cerata]

Have any makers considered opening a strictly 0mg nic liquid store that sells ego and other specialized batteries and clearos etc. EXPRESSLY for the purpose of weight loss and/or aromatherapy aids? Preferably without selling any tobacco-containing flavors. I have seen plenty of studies saying inhaling certain sweet flavors can act as an appetite suppressant and given how long a history there is of aromatherapy, I think that those would both be considered reasonable non-nicotine delivering usages for even the specialized batteries. It may be a long shot, but establishing a few stores like this, even online, may be a way to create evidence of alternate usages. And to be fair, I vape 3% occasionally, but 0% most of the time. I do it primarily for relaxation purposes (gives me something to do with my hands besides stuffing my face) and to taste flavors of things I can't eat anymore because I am extremely gluten intolerant.

ETA: Heck, I would consider doing this if I could get a bunch of the juice makers who are working against the regs to allow me to sell their 0mg fruit, dessert etc. juices, even as a drop ship.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Have any makers considered opening a strictly 0mg nic liquid store that sells ego and other specialized batteries and clearos etc. EXPRESSLY for the purpose of weight loss and/or aromatherapy aids? Preferably without selling any tobacco-containing flavors. I have seen plenty of studies saying inhaling certain sweet flavors can act as an appetite suppressant and given how long a history there is of aromatherapy, I think that those would both be considered reasonable non-nicotine delivering usages for even the specialized batteries. It may be a long shot, but establishing a few stores like this, even online, may be a way to create evidence of alternate usages. And to be fair, I vape 3% occasionally, but 0% most of the time. I do it primarily for relaxation purposes (gives me something to do with my hands besides stuffing my face) and to taste flavors of things I can't eat anymore because I am extremely gluten intolerant.

ETA: Heck, I would consider doing this if I could get a bunch of the juice makers who are working against the regs to allow me to sell their 0mg fruit, dessert etc. juices, even as a drop ship.

Somebody could try this. There are two possible issues.

The FDA could come in and take all the products and destroy them, alleging that they were "intended or anticipated for use with a covered tobacco product." Then the FDA would have to be sued. I'm not sure what would happen. It's a big risk, and deep pockets plus a strong stomach would be needed. It might be at least a year before the case would be heard unless a preiminary injunction could be obtained.

Also, where would such a vendor get their equipment? If it's going to be shipped in from overseas, then the same thing could happen as in Soterra. FDA asks customs to sieze it and then they destroy it. Once again, it's back to the courts.

The only way that these folks might be able to get away with this is if their equipment wasn't compatible with existing vaping equipment. For example, they could build their own mods (puck mods) and use something besides an existing 510 (etc.) connection. That would make life difficult for the FDA. Although there is also the Q of the cartridge. If it could be filled with nic. juice, then there's a problem too. That's why the safest route is a sealed cartridge, which is what companies like the makers of vitAcig are doing.

 

[shelley cerata]

But isn't that all two years from now? I'm trying to think like a (former) lawyer here, but for the next two years everything appears to be business as usual, correct? Which would be long enough to establish evidence that there are businesses and customers that use these products with no nicotine whatsoever for valid alternate uses. Heck, if I could buy all my 0 mg. juices and also equipment from one place I totally would. Ugh - if I weren't already working full-time as the owner of a new (non-vaping!) small biz, I would totally research this further. I do wonder if the existing juice providers / equip providers might be interested in setting up some kind of portal/drop ship biz that would let them work together to do this without expending a lot of capital.

 

[Jman8]

I'm no expert but IMO The 2 main reasons given by antz to support bans have been that e-cigs re-normalize smoking and may be a pathway to smoking (total BS btw). No need for nicotine to be present for those arguments to be used. What will be banned in next ten years is anybody's guess but when it comes to zealots anything is possible.

Like OP, I just see way too many loopholes to this. I realize loopholes can be closed, eventually, but I don't think for some items we are talking about 10 years from now, but more like 25 to 50 years from now. And that's just for stuff that we are discussing today. I imagine new loopholes will be opened up (wide open) 25 to 50 years from now.

 

[Central Floridian]

E-liquid is juice with nicotine, not everyone vapes with nicotine in their juice, I for one, on occasion. The way I see it, many businesses will change the way they make e-liquids. Business will start mixing e-liquid flavors without nicotine, possibly selling the nicotine separately. The FDA could not possibly regulate flavorings that do not contain nicotine. The consumer will buy nicotine at a strength they wish and mix it themselves, vape users will all become DIY mixers. Of course some large businesses will make e-liquid with nicotine, that will be FDA regulated. But I see many making it without.
This will also spawn rebranding and new terminology for e-liquids, no longer calling it e-juice or e-liquid, but something different. E-liquid right now, that does not contain nicotine is basically the same as MiO Liquid Water Enhancer, MiO is nothing more than PG and artificial flavoring / sweeteners. Hell you could vape it if you wanted to.

To, me there are way too many loop holes.

In Switzerland, only ZERO nic liquids are permitted to be sold in shops...however, the government gives the citizens the right to import up to 150ml of nic fluid per person. Albeit a weird law in my eyes, it looks like the Swiss will have more rights and freedom when it comes to vaping than Americans. So sad...
Vape on.