FDA Could the FDA really regulate E-Liquid??
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The more i keep hearing this and just how the FDA is gonna do this to us..Pure flat out theft and we know it and they know it and BT knows it..let alone all the chain reactions that will follow..
I went into a local vape shop and talked to them about all this.It was like they didn't even take the time to read anything but the news media about it..
All they talked about was getting a new place because they will be expanding soon..Getting rid of this liquid to make room for the new product..
it makes me wonder how many shops out there just settle for the FDA's smoke and the news when it comes to their livelihoods..
the othr vape shop started talkign with me about it before i was half way in the door..
i spent like two hours there just talking with them..
The owner is already sweating bullets..they have like an easy 100 flavors..that is their whole business..
I have to keep playing this just to keep the wind in my sails from being so ...... off over this whole thing that i blow a seal..
I went into a local vape shop and talked to them about all this.It was like they didn't even take the time to read anything but the news media about it..
All they talked about was getting a new place because they will be expanding soon..Getting rid of this liquid to make room for the new product..
it makes me wonder how many shops out there just settle for the FDA's smoke and the news when it comes to their livelihoods..
the othr vape shop started talkign with me about it before i was half way in the door..
i spent like two hours there just talking with them..
The owner is already sweating bullets..they have like an easy 100 flavors..that is their whole business..
I have to keep playing this just to keep the wind in my sails from being so ...... off over this whole thing that i blow a seal..
Sue the crap out of them. As I said. Terminology of E-liquid/E-Juice needs to change first. Right now with the name Vape, E-liquid, E-juice, it's automatically associated with nicotine and tobacco products. But if you change the name to say, I don't know....MiO...then no one will bother you....lol.
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Listened to the VP live show, well about 80% of it. Their emphasis on lack of vendor wisdom / perseverance is a little troubling. I can easily see current eCig companies not in it to win, but instead to collect profit (just like many vapers accuse BT of doing). I see some vendors in it until the game can't be played anymore or until bigger company comes along and makes them an offer they can't refuse, or would be foolish to refuse given the market that would exist in this speculation of what's to come. So, imagine a scenario where many mid-sized vendors, that we all tout as 'great businesses' today, suddenly sell out to BT, or BV. Not figuratively sell out, but literally.
I think part of the reason vapers are grim about what's to come is we don't have that mid-sized company we can currently point to, that is showing us they are in it for the long haul and are confident going forward. And as the VP show said, vaping businesses to date (all or most of them) have not come to the market with the very basic items that FDA is asking for, which is some of the same stuff that general public / non-vapers would deem "reasonable." FDA had 3+ years to put this together which means industry had 3+ years to come up with counter-proposal that amounts to, we as an industry, have this covered in way that is truly concerned about public health. I feel SFATA has been in that direction, but is type of thing that some vapers, prior to 4/24/14, felt wasn't cool or wasn't really there to help individual vapers, instead looking out only for business interests.
With that said, I think there is still time to change course and to get several companies who do step to the plate, are in it for the long haul, and won't sell out to BT, or BV.
And if for some odd reason that doesn't play out, then I fully believe teeny tiny V, being us vapers, will exploit loopholes for as long as humans are walking on this planet.
I really don't see it mentioned at all around here yet, but...
The FDA proposal is just a proposal.
After the comment period they can issue regulations that differ greatly from the proposal.
It could be FAR worse when they issue those final regulations.
And instead of loopholes there might be dead ends.
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the growth of 0-nic vaping and outlets that make this possible could eventually build the kind of factual record that could be used against the FDA if it started to shut down vaping equipment sales on the grounds that these are "components or parts" which are "intended or anticipated for us" with a "covered tobacco product."
It's certainly possible. The good news is that there would be a built-in clientele of vapers who had a lot of high-concentration nic. in their freezers
But it's also bad news, insofar as that would play into the FDA's hands.This is a little like the old paraphernalia issue with OTHER_STUFF back in the 80s. It was legal to use waterpipes with tobacco. But not for OTHER_STUFF. As I recall there was a period in the 80s when head shops were very few and far between for that reason, although much of that might have been the effect of state and local legislation.
There might be a pathway there, as you say. A strong stomach and deep pockets would be required.
E-liquid is juice with nicotine, not everyone vapes with nicotine in their juice, I for one, on occasion. The way I see it, many businesses will change the way they make e-liquids. Business will start mixing e-liquid flavors without nicotine, possibly selling the nicotine separately. The FDA could not possibly regulate flavorings that do not contain nicotine. The consumer will buy nicotine at a strength they wish and mix it themselves, vape users will all become DIY mixers. Of course some large businesses will make e-liquid with nicotine, that will be FDA regulated. But I see many making it without.
This will also spawn rebranding and new terminology for e-liquids, no longer calling it e-juice or e-liquid, but something different. E-liquid right now, that does not contain nicotine is basically the same as MiO Liquid Water Enhancer, MiO is nothing more than PG and artificial flavoring / sweeteners. Hell you could vape it if you wanted to.
To, me there are way too many loop holes.
So lets say there becomes no legal way to get safe nicotine to use in your DIY eliquid. I think this could be easily accomplished if the FDA decides to go that route. Other than the massively inferior BT products, what do you think would happen to the rest of the vaping industry if the only choice was 0 nic eliquid or BT's products? It would basically dry up and disappear. Every industry needs new customers to survive. No nic eliquid = few new customers = no vaping industry (other than BT).
I think we all need to crack our piggy banks open, CASAA has mentioned a lawsuit if the proposed rule goes down as is.
I also think it has taken some time for vendors to understand the complexity of this rule, but it IS starting to sink in. I also received the nicoticket e-mail and got chills as I read it. If NOW isn't the time for vendors to step up, the time will never come! We have a lot of really good people in our corner, lets support them and think of solutions instead of loopholes and work-arounds!
Lastly, the cream has really risen to the top here on ECF. A lot of good support and valuable discussion from so many members!! Even some who I would never have expected it from! Get ready everyone, this is going to get worse, before it gets better, IMHO.
As for the OP's original question, many many people lost thousands of dollars worth of product in 2009. Small startups who invested their life savings. I believe they (FDA) can wrap their hands around nicotine pretty tight which I am sure they are going to. I am sure the FDA knows unless vendors band together fiscally, the only left will be BT. They are counting on it.
Sorry for the mini rant!!
I also think it has taken some time for vendors to understand the complexity of this rule, but it IS starting to sink in. I also received the nicoticket e-mail and got chills as I read it. If NOW isn't the time for vendors to step up, the time will never come! We have a lot of really good people in our corner, lets support them and think of solutions instead of loopholes and work-arounds!
Lastly, the cream has really risen to the top here on ECF. A lot of good support and valuable discussion from so many members!! Even some who I would never have expected it from! Get ready everyone, this is going to get worse, before it gets better, IMHO.
As for the OP's original question, many many people lost thousands of dollars worth of product in 2009. Small startups who invested their life savings. I believe they (FDA) can wrap their hands around nicotine pretty tight which I am sure they are going to. I am sure the FDA knows unless vendors band together fiscally, the only left will be BT. They are counting on it.
Sorry for the mini rant!!
That is *exactly* what I'm saying. I agree it's playing into the FDA's hands, but it's also a tiny part of a back-up plan if in two years these rules go into effect as-is and the vaping community has to bring legal action. If there were a way to organize the currently involved vape companies to make something like this happen, I'd do as much pro bono, "retired bar status" research as I could for them and I would certainly support the venture by buying lots of things.
BTW what happened between the 80s and now that "water pipes" etc. are available at so many head and tobacco shops now (and even in the late 80s / early 90s when I was a budding wannabe hippie?) Was it just a lack of desire to enforce?
BTW what happened between the 80s and now that "water pipes" etc. are available at so many head and tobacco shops now (and even in the late 80s / early 90s when I was a budding wannabe hippie?) Was it just a lack of desire to enforce?
If I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that the growth of 0-nic vaping and outlets that make this possible could eventually build the kind of factual record that could be used against the FDA if it started to shut down vaping equipment sales on the grounds that these are "components or parts" which are "intended or anticipated for us" with a "covered tobacco product."
It's certainly possible. The good news is that there would be a built-in clientele of vapers who had a lot of high-concentration nic. in their freezers
This is a little like the old paraphernalia issue with OTHER_STUFF back in the 80s. It was legal to use waterpipes with tobacco. But not for OTHER_STUFF. As I recall there was a period in the 80s when head shops were very few and far between for that reason, although much of that might have been the effect of state and local legislation.
There might be a pathway there, as you say. A strong stomach and deep pockets would be required.
Everybody is so long winded today, I boiled the important parts down....
The video CassiusCloud posted is definitely thought provoking. And I realized I'm proud of myself for protecting the freedom of not only myself and my wife, but my 3 closest friends as well. I invested in a 6-8 year supply of nic for us months ago and carefully packaged it for long term storage. Even went as far as vacuum sealing each individual 120ml bottle. But I'm not proud of why I did it.
The company I built for nearly a decade was regulated right out of existence in 2009. I had 15 long time employees. Worst day of my professional life was calling them into the meeting. Looking back I was a fool for not realizing how serious the ramifications of the regulations were going to be. I had many peers in the industry and we were all caught off guard in many ways as the changes started taking place. Even though we had plenty of lead time and warning. I fear the same complacency will happen with the vast majority of small juice vendors if things don't go well. It will be business as usual until it's too late to figure out how to manage the regulations.
I'm optimistic about hardware but I'm definitely pessimistic about juice. I love mixing my own stuff. My personal minimum bar is simply being able to buy expensive and heavily taxed unflavored in the years to come. As long as that happens I'll personally be ok but it's still a disaster for the culture we have as we know it. Another decision made for us. Another erosion of personal liberty and freedom.
The company I built for nearly a decade was regulated right out of existence in 2009. I had 15 long time employees. Worst day of my professional life was calling them into the meeting. Looking back I was a fool for not realizing how serious the ramifications of the regulations were going to be. I had many peers in the industry and we were all caught off guard in many ways as the changes started taking place. Even though we had plenty of lead time and warning. I fear the same complacency will happen with the vast majority of small juice vendors if things don't go well. It will be business as usual until it's too late to figure out how to manage the regulations.
I'm optimistic about hardware but I'm definitely pessimistic about juice. I love mixing my own stuff. My personal minimum bar is simply being able to buy expensive and heavily taxed unflavored in the years to come. As long as that happens I'll personally be ok but it's still a disaster for the culture we have as we know it. Another decision made for us. Another erosion of personal liberty and freedom.
I can stash nic for myself and a few others, they can collect stuff and sure, we could keep this going for awhile but that is not going to attract new vapers and we really need new vapers to keep the industry growing and evolving. I can't imagine going back to 2007 or cigalikes. I can't imagine the FDA approving a 20W 26650 mod, a drip tip or figuring out 8 different Kayfuns and Russian's. Different O ring size? New product.
I totally agree. I tested out Blu and Njoy for a week almost a year ago. They made me realize it was "possible" but the tanks and vv devices made me realize it was "probable". Just like about everyone else. I don't know anyone who vapes low grade prefilled cigalikes for more than a "trial period".
In the end i really do believe that hardware will survive relatively easily. FDA and State Govs will grab the nic by the throat and we'll pay dearly for it. It's the path of least resistance and protects the revenue.
If there's a revolution, this is the video the administration can blame it on..... unless they put him in jail first.
Yes. If they want to they can and will enforce.
In fact, that's exactly what they did here in Vista where I live.
Then what's the point of hardware? With no e-liquid it's like an arms manufacturer producing guns but you can't get the the ammo. No. I see vaping hardware shriveling up pretty quickly because innovation and development will come to a complete halt. What's left on the market will be liquidated at premium prices and everyone will be bidding on ebay for last year's Provari at $1000 (with "Reserve not met")
And FastTech *still* won't be fast.
Nope. We need an alternate way to get our "buzz" that isn't nicotine. Or find another viable and economical source that doesn't come from a tobacco leaf. That would stop this whole thing dead in its tracks. Last I heard it was still the "Tobacco" Control Act.
I'm going to wick a coil with some dirty socks I found in the garage. That just may be the answer folks. Stand by.
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