Diacetyl Free - Does it Matter?

[ImThatGuy]

[Removed due to language]

Amazing...it was so interesting and entertaining that I listened to the whole thing.

Please listen. It is every informative and enlightening and of course entertaining. It hits all the points and then some.

*I just saw on another thread that this clip was removed because of foul language. Note: this sound clip contains a lot of foul language. If you are or will be offended hearing such language, then please don't click to listen. But if you don't get easily offended. Click on away. It's hella amusing and entertaining to listen to.

 

[DeAnna2112]

I am only 35 minutes into this podcast and all i can say is WOW!!...just freaking WOW!! 5P deserves everything they get and more

 

[zoiDman]

...

Amazing...it was so interesting and entertaining that I listened to the whole thing.

Please listen. It is every informative and enlightening and of course entertaining. It hits all the points and then some.

...

Just got done Listening to the Entire Episode.

I'm Not a huge Fan of Russ on Click Bang. But I will say that he Is someone who is Unafraid to say Exactly How he Feels. A Quality that is Extremely Rare Today. And a Quality inandof Itself that is Not without Virtue.

 

[Jman8]

What a bunch of Bill Clinton double speak jibberish. They all knew and they all lied and continue to do so. Who are you trying to kid?

I like how the point being made is not explained nor the lie that is allegedly told.

 

[Jman8]

[Removed due to language]

Amazing...it was so interesting and entertaining that I listened to the whole thing.

Please listen. It is every informative and enlightening and of course entertaining. It hits all the points and then some.

I'm starting to listen to it. I'll likely listen to the whole thing. So far, not hearing anything new.

Am hearing him say "it is scientific fact that the stuff destroys your lungs." And "don't take my word for it, go talk to Dr. F."

Wish to note these are verbatim quotes, but I'm not far off. Anyone is free to update those quotes to whatever degree you feel I am far off.

And just chiming in now to say:

a) not even close to scientific fact

b) I HAVE communicated with Dr. F. about this. Dr. F. certainly does not present it as scientific fact. I really hope your points are made better going forward but as I'm familiar with your schtick, I know I'm likely to poke so many holes in your feeble attempts to paint a picture that rests on sensationalism (and cursing) that I'm not sure it'll be worth my time, given the stakes around the lawsuit. But am up for seeing what others in vape community may treat as gospel and seeing if I may find things humorous in a snarky way that I will listen to what else is said.

But your may want to brush up on your ideas of what makes for scientific fact and what doesn't. And if wanting to come to ECF and have that debate openly instead on your home court, I'd take you on in a second. And look forward to defeating your rhetoric/schtick.

 

[Jman8]

Ooo, just got done with the part on how he hypes up Wolf Haldenstein as the right people for this job. Though, of course Russ uses much stronger language to bring home how much he is going to look forward to this law firm do a little dance on 5P and drain them dry.

Now, I could claim something ANTZ related here, but really why would I do that. I mean just cause the same law group is the firm that successfully sued RJ Reynolds for wrongful death case in FL (perhaps you heard about it, as it awarded 1.8 billion dollars to plaintiffs, who had no idea smoking was dangerous). Or the case they have against njoy for (ahem, cough cough) "falsely advertised its e-cigarettes as healthier than traditional tobacco cigarettes." Really, where does NJOY get off with such rhetoric. How dare they. Or as Russ might put it, "How dare they, those completely completely ......s."

Nope, let's just ignore their legal history and what they are about. And please Russ, continue with all the wonderful points you have about this case against 5P.

(Back to listening to his pearls of wisdom)

 

[Asbestos4004]

soooooooooooooooo.....I hear SvoeMesto is working on a new atty....... Show of hands here, who likes the new ProVari Radius?

 

[Jman8]

Nearly done with the radio program, and it has inspired me to go out and purchase a fiddle. I don't know how to play that instrument, but I'll be looking for a teacher. I'm going to name my fiddle "Russ" and I'm going to see if Wolf Haldenstein will teach me how to play that. And play it so well, that the fiddle will be clueless as to how well I am able to play it.

 

[ImThatGuy]

I'm starting to listen to it. I'll likely listen to the whole thing. So far, not hearing anything new.

Am hearing him say "it is scientific fact that the stuff destroys your lungs." And "don't take my word for it, go talk to Dr. F."

Wish to note these are verbatim quotes, but I'm not far off. Anyone is free to update those quotes to whatever degree you feel I am far off.

And just chiming in now to say:

a) not even close to scientific fact

b) I HAVE communicated with Dr. F. about this. Dr. F. certainly does not present it as scientific fact. I really hope your points are made better going forward but as I'm familiar with your schtick, I know I'm likely to poke so many holes in your feeble attempts to paint a picture that rests on sensationalism (and cursing) that I'm not sure it'll be worth my time, given the stakes around the lawsuit. But am up for seeing what others in vape community may treat as gospel and seeing if I may find things humorous in a snarky way that I will listen to what else is said.

But your may want to brush up on your ideas of what makes for scientific fact and what doesn't. And if wanting to come to ECF and have that debate openly instead on your home court, I'd take you on in a second. And look forward to defeating your rhetoric/schtick.

Ooo, just got done with the part on how he hypes up Wolf Haldenstein as the right people for this job. Though, of course Russ uses much stronger language to bring home how much he is going to look forward to this law firm do a little dance on 5P and drain them dry.

Now, I could claim something ANTZ related here, but really why would I do that. I mean just cause the same law group is the firm that successfully sued RJ Reynolds for wrongful death case in FL (perhaps you heard about it, as it awarded 1.8 billion dollars to plaintiffs, who had no idea smoking was dangerous). Or the case they have against NJOY for (ahem, cough cough) "falsely advertised its e-cigarettes as healthier than traditional tobacco cigarettes." Really, where does NJOY get off with such rhetoric. How dare they. Or as Russ might put it, "How dare they, those completely completely ......s."

Nope, let's just ignore their legal history and what they are about. And please Russ, continue with all the wonderful points you have about this case against 5P.

(Back to listening to his pearls of wisdom)

Nearly done with the radio program, and it has inspired me to go out and purchase a fiddle. I don't know how to play that instrument, but I'll be looking for a teacher. I'm going to name my fiddle "Russ" and I'm going to see if Wolf Haldenstein will teach me how to play that. And play it so well, that the fiddle will be clueless as to how well I am able to play it.

"Wanting to come to ECF and have a debate openly instead on your home court, I'd take you on in a second" HUH??? I surely don't log in to ECF to raise a debate, but will sure end this one if this is what it turned out to be.

Truth: Five Pawns is being sued.
Truth: They lied.
Truth: When their claims were falsified, they continued to lie.
Truth: DA and AP are still in the grey, but history has shown effects from contact/use/etc.
Ecigs is supposed to be harm reduction, correct? Reducing risk, correct? Is this not about avoidable risk, correct?
A healthier alternative can't be achieved with continued false claims. It cannot be achieved without disclosure. It cannot be achieved without avoiding risks.

I think I'm done here and of this subject since it seems to lead to a "debate" instead of just informative conversations.

 

[Jman8]

"Wanting to come to ECF and have a debate openly instead on your home court, I'd take you on in a second" HUH??? I surely don't log in to ECF to raise a debate, but will sure end this one if this is what it turned out to be.

To me, it's more like war. So, perhaps best to step aside if not prepared to battle.

Truth: Five Pawns is being sued.

By plaintiffs with a clear / undeniable history of ANTZ claims to their legal rhetoric. Already cited in this thread. This includes another, very popular eCig company (NJoy).

Truth: They lied.

Yet to be established. Again, same law firm sued NJoy for falsely advertising 'eCigs are healthier than cigarettes.' For those that may not recall NJoy is the company that won lawsuit against FDA in 2010. Coincidence that this high powered law firm has gone after NJoy?

Truth: When their claims were falsified, they continued to lie.

Currently a baseless accusation. Or yet to be established at very least. Again, same law firm is still going after NJoy for still claiming eCigs are healthier than cigarettes. IOW, from their perspective, for continuing to lie.

Truth: DA and AP are still in the grey, but history has shown effects from contact/use/etc.

Not with regards to vaping. Or at the very least, in very very very few cases with vaping. Of all ingredients in most eLiquid, DA/P have arguably shown less history of effects/plausible harm than any other ingredient.

Ecigs is supposed to be harm reduction, correct? Reducing risk, correct? Is this not about avoidable risk, correct?

I'm not sure how you can have it both ways. Support law firm/plaintiffs that are pressing hard on claim that eCigs are healthier than cigarettes, and yet be on forum claiming this is what eCigs are for.

With way lawsuit is written, and for sure with what is implied, all ingredients in eCigs contain an avoidable risk, none of which vendors are notifying customers of those risks, with only possible exception being nicotine. Even that would be debatable.

Reality is that eCigs are an alternative to smoking. Claims of healthier are what pro-vaping position holds. Law firm bringing this lawsuit is fighting another legal battle that says "that equals false advertising." IOW, if you support what this law firm is up to, then you would acknowledge that all claims of eCigs being healthier are "false advertising" aka, lies.

A healthier alternative can't be achieved with continued false claims. It cannot be achieved without disclosure. It cannot be achieved without avoiding risks.

I think I'm done here and of this subject since it seems to lead to a "debate" instead of just informative conversations.

I'd rather you stick around / engage in the debate, and stay open minded about what the lawsuit really entails. Yet, if not able to engage in discussion after throwing out assertions that are questionable, and not doing a little bit of homework to realize those who support this law firm are being bamboozled, then it is perhaps best to step aside. Up to you really.

 

[Jman8]

Here is link to the NJOY lawsuit I have previously referenced.

And some items from that lawsuit that I wish to highlight (as relevant to the other lawsuit):

While the exact damages to Plaintiffs and the Classes are unknown at this time, Plaintiffs reasonably believe that their claims exceed five million dollars ($5,000,000) in the aggregate.

Defendant, the manufacturer of the NJOY brand of electronic cigarettes, has a uniform and long-standing pattern of employing unfair and deceptive practices with respect to the sale of its products through misrepresentations and omissions concerning the potential health risks thereof.

Defendant has engaged in a consistent and pervasive marketing campaign that promotes its core marketing message that NJOY E-Cigarettes are known to be safer than traditional tobacco cigarettes or generally safe. For example, one of NJOY’s marketing taglines has been that its NJOY E-Cigarettes provide “everything you like about smoking without the things you don’t,” and variations of that statement, which have appeared in numerous print and other advertisements for NJOY E-Cigarettes. NJOY has also used marketing slogans such as that NJOY is the “Resolution Solution;” that “Friends Don’t Let Friends Smoke;” and, in the pre-Class Period, that NJOY provides “All the Pleasures of Smoking Without All the Problems.” The core marketing message about the purported safety of NJOY E-Cigarettes that is conveyed by these slogans is deceptive, false and misleading because it is not true that NJOY E-Cigarettes are known to be generally safe or safer than traditional cigarettes, which are known to be dangerous. Studies have shown that electronic cigarettes, including NJOY E- Cigarettes, also contain disease-causing substances that are dangerous to your health. Studies also show that certain electronic cigarettes, including NJOY E-Cigarettes, require that the user take deeper puffs to produce vapor than the puffs required for a traditional tobacco cigarette, and that this could be harmful to users’ health. Furthermore, there is widespread agreement in the scientific community that further research is necessary before the full negative effects of electronic cigarette use on users’ health can be known.

As a result of Defendant’s deceptive, false and misleading claims in its advertising and marketing, consumers – including Plaintiffs and the other member of the proposed Classes – have purchased NJOY E-Cigarettes without being advised that they contain a variety of carcinogens, toxins, impurities, and related potential health hazards as found by various studies discussed in more detail below. Had Defendant disclosed these material facts, Plaintiffs would not have purchased Defendant’s NJOY E-Cigarettes. Defendant was able to charge more than what its NJOY E-Cigarettes would have been worth had it disclosed the truth about them.

These quotes from first 7 pages (of 69).

Those evil eCig vendors are lying to you. And these lawyers will help you recover all damages from those greedy eCig companies. Won't you join them?

 

[crxess]

Neither group knows, but one group outright avoids potential negative consequences. Which group is smarter?

Seriously?
Group 3 that decides none of it is worth the risk and walks away.

When a discussion comes down to Who is smarter......... well, lets just say, it is no longer a discussion.

 

[Racehorse]

Please back up the claim that 5P marketed their claims as DA/P free.

I never read on their website that they are AP free. I was told on the phone though. There were also emails stating the same circulating on Reddit when the story first broke.

This case will not be decided on the relative harm or potential harm of diketones. It will be decided on whether FP knowingly lied about the presence of diketones in their liquid, and whether a group of people ( class ) bought their liquid based on this misrepresentation. Customers who would otherwise not have purchased the eliquid.

Mazinny is correct and is actually on topic. This isn't about diketone safety at all, and that isn't even important to the case.

Back when the first fiasco w/5P started, customers who were buying the product had actual emails where they asked, and it was answered that there was not AP/DA.

I daresay that when those are presented in court they will be seen as "claims". I am not an attornyey, but besides consumer fraud there may also be violations with the FTC, Lanham Act, etc. as it concerns internet sales/advertising, etc.

I don't care if company's use DAP, but if I ask, I expect an honest answer, otherwise we are looking at a fraudulent business practice.

Please back up the claim that 5P marketed their claims as DA/P free.

the poster doesn't have to back up anything, if they are not part of the class action lawsuit. ECF isn't a court of law, and nobody is under any rules whatsoever to back up claims made by 5P. 5P will have their day in court to do just that.

as i have stated in multiple times in this thread already. the difference is D/AP is not NEEDED to make eliquid.

That was what Dr. Farsalinos pretty much said........and why they don't "belong" in eliquid.

Agreed Robino, it may not be good for vaping, but I think it IS good for vapers.

Yes, it is. If you believe people matter. I vaped eliquid that had titanium dioxide in it, for god's sake. The health and well-being of a person is important. People matter. More than corporations and industries. Once we stray from that principle, all is lost (as we have already seen with many industries).

The buying public certainly has every right to a marketplace where they are not victimized by false advertising/deceptive claims.

 

[Jman8]

Mazinny is correct and is actually on topic. This isn't about diketone safety at all, and that isn't even important to the case.

Back when the first fiasco w/5P started, customers who were buying the product had actual emails where they asked, and it was answered that there was not AP/DA.

I daresay that when those are presented in court they will be seen as "claims". I am not an attornyey, but besides consumer fraud there may also be violations with the FTC, Lanham Act, etc. as it concerns internet sales/advertising, etc.

I don't care if company's use DAP, but if I ask, I expect an honest answer, otherwise we are looking at a fraudulent business practice.

I already addressed all this previously. Agreed the court may see emails as claims, but doesn't establish that they knowingly lied.

We have seemingly no choice but to let the courts decide. Yet, I'd just note that what you are purporting about false claims is clearly not limited to 5P. And if you have bothered to read the 5P lawsuit, or the NJOY one, then arguably by the standards (or lack thereof) of this law firm, all eCig companies are lying.

 

[Jman8]

I vaped eliquid that had titanium dioxide in it, for god's sake. The health and well-being of a person is important. People matter. More than corporations and industries. Once we stray from that principle, all is lost (as we have already seen with many industries).

I once drank water that had chlorine in it, for god's sake. A known toxin.

 

[Racehorse]

Yet, I'd just note that what you are purporting about false claims is clearly not limited to 5P.

I am "purporting" nothing.

The topic at hand is about a class action lawsuit brought against 5P.

At least, that is what I was responding to.

If you want to muddy up the topic with everything under the sun, and throw in the kitchen sink as well, we can start listing thousands of companies, not just w/in the vaping industry, who are guilty of false claims.

Have at it.

I once drank water that had chlorine in it, for god's sake. A known toxin.

And under the legal system you had the right to bring an action against them if it bothered you. If you allowed yourself to be poisoned by a "toxin" (as you put it), and didn't do anything about it, then that is nobody's fault but your own. You would have to prove you received an excessive, lethal or near lethal dose by drinking some water.

BUT AGAIN, this is not what the lawsuit is about with 5P. (Hopefully you can read Mazinny's post again for some direction.)

Because your example isn't even close to a comparison of what the 5P case is about. Your water company can, and will provide you with the flouride content of your water, and you may ask to have it tested (I have). They didn't lie to you about there being flouride in your water. therefore, there is no deceptive / fraudulent practices going on with the water company, which is heavily regulated by the way.

IN the meantime, if you think it's okay to put titanium dioxide in eliquid, and have your customers unknowingly vape it, then you go ahead and buy from companies like that. Maybe you can testify in court on their behalf, too, and *protect* those kinds of practices.

 

[Racehorse]

At any rate, I dunno why we are even bothering to discuss the safety of DAP....the lawsuit isn't about that at all, and no damages are being sought for any harm from DAP. The entire lawsuit appears to be about false advertising and deceptive advertising.

Also I believe one of the plaintiffs is this guy, a vaping activist, libertarian sort:
Five Pawns Class Action Lawsuit

 

[skoony]

Truth: Five Pawns is being sued.
Truth: They lied.
Truth: When their claims were falsified, they continued to lie.
Truth: DA and AP are still in the grey, but history has shown effects from contact/use/etc.
Ecigs is supposed to be harm reduction, correct? Reducing risk, correct? Is this not about avoidable risk, correct?
A healthier alternative can't be achieved with continued false claims. It cannot be achieved without disclosure. It cannot be achieved without avoiding risks.

True: Five Pawns is being sued.
False: They lied. No. More and more this appears to be a well orchestrated campaign
right from the start. I think the guy who recorded the call,the couple of other people
that called, the e-mailers and the law firm were in on this from the very beginning.
It appears to me 5P was manipulated into giving these guys what they wanted.
The same few people who started this witch hunt are involved in the law suite.
Why is this a class action suite? Is three people all you can find? how long have
them three known each other? cross examination should be quite interesting.
There isn't any credible scientific evidence that anything in the juice is in fact
causing harm when used in the juice. Where are all those studies using diketones
in juice that are showing harm?

Regards
Mike

 

[440BB]

It appears to me 5P was manipulated into giving these guys what they wanted.

So Five Pawns was pressured or tricked into making claims that their own tests showed to be false.

I'm interested in how that will play out in court, if this case even gets there.

I wonder if their errors and omissions insurance covers this. Somebody's going to be writing a big check.

 

[zoiDman]

So Five Pawns was pressured or tricked into making claims that their own tests showed to be false.

I'm interested in how that will play out in court, if this case even gets there.

I wonder if their errors and omissions insurance covers this. Somebody's going to be writing a big check.

The Entrapment Angle. Now there is something I bet Most Didn't see coming.

I bet ANTZ were behind it.