Diacetyl Free - Does it Matter?

Status
Not open for further replies.

herb

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 21, 2014
4,850
6,723
Northern NJ native , Coastal NC now.
This seems plausible but,how are they going to get around the fact they can't trot out
sick vapers. The second part I am having a hard time parsing. If I follow it correctly
they are saying the addition of diketones made 5P not worth
the cost they were charging. additionally if they removed the diketones they would
indeed be worth the cost of the juice thats "risk free?".

They are going to prove vaping is safe? We win,right?
Hey everyone vaping is safe. Sorry 5P under the bus you go!
:D
Regards
Mike


For me , i'm not paying close to $30.00 for 30ml of e juice no matter how good it is or what it does or doesn't contain.
 
  • Like
Reactions: skoony

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,619
1
84,743
So-Cal
What I think is Kinda Funny about All this is that BT got their Butts Whipped when they Said that they Didn't put any "Extra" Chemicals in Cigarette Tobacco. But they Did.

And when Lawsuits were Brought Against them, Many/Most Vapers thought this Was Great.

Now we have a e-Liquid OEM who "Illegally" Claimed that their e-Liquids were Da and AP Free. And by their Own Lab Results, this was shown to be False. But we are Supposed to give them a Pass because they are part of the Vaping Community?
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,254
USA midwest
What I think is Kinda Funny about All this is that BT got their Butts Whipped when they Said that they Didn't put any "Extra" Chemicals in Cigarette Tobacco. But they Did.

And when Lawsuits were Brought Against them, Many/Most Vapers thought this Was Great.

Now we have a e-Liquid OEM who "Illegally" Claimed that their e-Liquids were Da and AP Free. And by their Own Lab Results, this was shown to be False. But we are Supposed to give them a Pass because they are part of the Vaping Community?

Yes, again, anybody who believes that consumers do not have a right to know the ingredients of a product they are using or injesting (if able to be tested and knowable) will be against this lawsuit.

I am not willing to give up my rights as a consumer over one vendor's eliquids. :) Anybody who supports unfair or deceptive practices throughout the consumer economy will also toss out our consumer rights as they relate to Truth in Lending, Fair Debt Collection, Fair Credit Reporting, Product Warranties, Predatory Lending, and even business specific laws like health club contracts, etc. because it is all part and parcel of consumer law.

As has been said often, be careful what rights you are willing to give up. Once they are gone they are gone.
 

Jman8

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2013
6,419
12,928
Wisconsin
For you personally perhaps.

However, that is not what the lawsuit is about. ;)


The purpose of the suit is clearly stated:

"The lawsuit seeks to stop Five Pawns from marketing and selling its products without proper disclosure."

And again, this is not all the lawsuit states. You don't even quote where you get this from.

Like saying the FDA deeming has a clearly stated purpose:

"To ensure the safety and standards of all eCig and related products."

Very simple and, given your rhetoric, is all the FDA deeming is about. Thinking it is about more than that is going beyond the simplicity of its clear purpose, or adding things that aren't there.

Lawsuits are always about something, this one is about deceptive marketing practices, period. This is the sole basis on which damages are being sought.

Even at this level, it opens the door wide to similar suits being brought to all other vaping vendors. I think we all know NJOY to be DA-free, and yet same law firm is going after NJOY for "deceptive marketing practices." So, it would be very interesting to have that explained by those who think this stops with 5P. Also would be interesting to see if anyone reading this can name a vaping company that, by the standards of this suit, is not engaging in deceptive practices. Let's just stick to vaping companies. I think it applies to all companies (and government), but for sake of what this thread/forum are about, I'm very okay taking standards of this suit (and NJOY one) and realizing how it could apply to all of them. And that it could is all that matters, not that it does actually apply to them. Cause that is where the divide in the community comes. I don't think it applies to NJOY or 5P. Yet, if we have fellow vapers saying it surely applies, to at least one of them, then I don't think it would be all that challenging to persuade same person to see how it could apply to (all) others. Though, I do think many will just wish to deny that and cross fingers, hoping it stops with 5P.
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,619
1
84,743
So-Cal
Yes, again, anybody who believes that consumers do not have a right to know the ingredients of a product they are using or injesting (if able to be tested and knowable) will be against this lawsuit.

I am not willing to give up my rights as a consumer over one vendor's eliquids. :) Anybody who supports unfair or deceptive practices throughout the consumer economy will also toss out our consumer rights as they relate to Truth in Lending, Fair Debt Collection, Fair Credit Reporting, Product Warranties, Predatory Lending, and even business specific laws like health club contracts, etc. because it is all part and parcel of consumer law.

Agreed.

There a Many OEM's/Sellers who have Posted their Test Results for Anyone to Look at. And Many of these Results show Levels of both Da and AP.

And you see Very Little (if any) Anger towards these OEM's/Sellers. If anything, you see Praise for them. Because they are Being Honest and letting Buyers make an Informed Choice about what they use.

And if a OEM/Seller doesn't want to Post any Results, that's OK to. Just don't Tell People that an e-Liquid is Da or AP Free if it is Not.
 
Last edited:

Jman8

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2013
6,419
12,928
Wisconsin
Yes, again, anybody who believes that consumers do not have a right to know the ingredients of a product they are using or injesting (if able to be tested and knowable) will be against this lawsuit.

Not accurate assertion. Some of us believe consumers have option to find that out in several different ways, as may or may not be desired. To do own testing, to select companies that do testing (and whose results they trust), to select trade industry organizations and only by from members of those organizations. Where we differ from some on this issue is that we do not see it as helpful to either the market nor the individual consumer to make that mandatory. And we are prepared, very much prepared, to have this debate, and not mince words.
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,254
USA midwest
Yes it is interesting, besides your point about BT lying about the extra chemicals in cigs, and how disclosure was applauded by us all when we found out, that when the very first posts about DAP appeared on the forum, the free marketers were against banning and just supported "disclosure". As a matter of fact, I don't really KNOW of anyone who has had a problem with simply "disclosure". Everyone said that was pretty much reasonable, and then the consumer could decide.

Fast forward to present, and suddenly asking for disclosure is not okay. ???

I don't get it.
 

Jman8

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2013
6,419
12,928
Wisconsin
Yes it is interesting, besides your point about BT lying about the extra chemicals in cigs, and how disclosure was applauded by us all when we found out, that when the very first posts about DAP appeared on the forum, the free marketers were against banning and just supported "disclosure". As a matter of fact, I don't really KNOW of anyone who has had a problem with simply "disclosure". Everyone said that was pretty much reasonable, and then the consumer could decide.

Fast forward to present, and suddenly asking for disclosure is not okay. ???

I don't get it.

So, do you think that all risks on all ingredients ought to be explained to all (vaping) consumers during all sales/pre-sale inquiries?

That is disclosure. Holding back information on any risks, potential or otherwise, would equal deceptive marketing by this lawsuit's wording.

Btw, I don't think I was around when the BT thing came up. But pretty sure I could find a number of current ECF members that disagree with your take on this, and thinking some of those were around when it came up. Therefore, you are plausibly being deceptive. Not sure if its intentional or not.
 

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,254
USA midwest
Some of us believe consumers have option to find that out in several different ways, as may or may not be desired. To do own testing

:lol: really?

I don't think you will find many people who want to test their food for ingredients.

That is why labelling is important to most people, esp. those who have allergies. Or are simply trying to avoid cholesterol, sugar, HFCs, or transfats.

It is equally important to know if the moisturizer you use contains something that is harmful to your person.

Are you suggesting that consumers take on all food and product testing in general now? :lol:

Laughable, really.

If you want to turn back the history of consumer law and labelling, better get started changing all the laws. :)
 
Last edited:

Racehorse

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 12, 2012
11,230
28,254
USA midwest
So, do you think that all risks on all ingredients ought to be explained to all (vaping) consumers during all sales/pre-sale inquiries?

the lawsuit against Five Pawns does not ask for risks on all ingredients to be explained.

It simply asks for disclosure of ingredients AP and DA, which were discoverable and for which lab(s) tested for and showed present in the ejuice.

Yet, when potential buyers ASKED about these chemicals, they were *allegedly* lied to.

It is interesting to watch you make this topic about a million other things than about what it is really about.

You really need to read the lawsuit, and if you are unclear as to what it says, perhaps have an attorney friend explain it to you.
 

Jman8

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2013
6,419
12,928
Wisconsin
:lol: really?

I don't think you will find many people who want to test their food for ingredients.

I'm sure I could find some. I'm also sure it is the best option for those that have genuine concern, otherwise they'll be resorting to faith.

Are you suggesting that consumers take on all food and product testing in general now
Laughable, really.

Laughable that you frame it this way. Feel free to quote what I said earlier.

Diacetyl is in food products and people do (routinely) inhale / smell their food, thereby exposing themselves to SAME RISK this suit is bringing up. Therefore, all food vendors who are not disclosing DA inclusion (or possible inclusion) in their products at time of sale are guilty of whatever this suit is getting at, which is deceptive practice of not disclosing that it is in there (very trivial really, in the suit) and disclosing the risks (central to the suit, really). For arguably, had one known that a product they enjoy smelling before they taste does have DA in it, and that isn't explicitly explained in terms of risk to the person if they do smell it, is very much deceptive marketing, by this suits standards. Could likely find a whole bunch of food vendors and low level employees who have no idea, and who claim, "oh you'll be fine if you smell this. People do that all the time." Or if somehow the DA scare carried over to entire food industry, and companies tried to be PC there with idea of "we don't intentionally add that to our products," and so low level employee tells me, "Nope, not in our products. We are DA free!"
 
  • Like
Reactions: skoony

herb

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 21, 2014
4,850
6,723
Northern NJ native , Coastal NC now.
What I think is Kinda Funny about All this is that BT got their Butts Whipped when they Said that they Didn't put any "Extra" Chemicals in Cigarette Tobacco. But they Did.

And when Lawsuits were Brought Against them, Many/Most Vapers thought this Was Great.

Now we have a e-Liquid OEM who "Illegally" Claimed that their e-Liquids were Da and AP Free. And by their Own Lab Results, this was shown to be False. But we are Supposed to give them a Pass because they are part of the Vaping Community?


That is what i am questioning , as far as i know there is no law that requires juice manufacturers to tell the absolute truth about whats in their juice at this time . Of course i could be wrong but "Five Pawns" is just one of many that avoid telling the truth but if it's not "illegal" then why this lawsuit is my question.

You seem to think it's illegal and if it is then we have many offenders , is it known that it is illegal and where can that info be located because i thought currently there was no law saying it's illegal .

Thanks
 

skoony

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jul 31, 2013
5,692
9,953
70
saint paul,mn,usa
However, that is not what the lawsuit is about.

"The lawsuit seeks to stop Five Pawns from marketing and selling its products without proper disclosure."
The core issue is harm. They have to prove harm in order to prove their proper
disclosure claim. One cannot bring a suite because they do not like something.
At the bare minimum it has to actually be causing harm in the application it is being
used in.
That means they have sick vapers to bring as witnesses and would answer the
question we all have been asking. Are diketones in the juice harming people?
I can see now how this litigation is going to solve so many issues for us.
:2c:
Regards
Mike
 

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,619
1
84,743
So-Cal
That is what i am questioning , as far as i know there is no law that requires juice manufacturers to tell the absolute truth about whats in their juice at this time . Of course i could be wrong but "Five Pawns" is just one of many that avoid telling the truth but if it's not "illegal" then why this lawsuit is my question.

You seem to think it's illegal and if it is then we have many offenders , is it known that it is illegal and where can that info be located because i thought currently there was no law saying it's illegal .

Thanks

There are Many Laws regarding "Truth in Advertising" and about making claims about the Absence (or Presence) of an Ingredient(s) in a Consumable product.

There maybe be Variations from State to State. And some States may have Laws Requiring Warning Labels where other might not.

Here's the Thing though. This case will be Reviewed for Legal Merit before it is allowed to Continue. So if the Suit Bringers do not have a Legal Right to bring forth the Suit, it will get Tossed out or Modified.
 

Jman8

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 15, 2013
6,419
12,928
Wisconsin
Would you like me to quote where it does this for DA/P? Because I feel you are being deceptive right now.

Under section of Count 1 in the suit:

Defendant had a duty to disclose this information to Plaintiffs and the members of the Class for several reasons. First, Defendant repeatedly made the representation that its products are free of DA and AP and that even if they do, they do contain those ingredients, they do not pose a health risk, or closely analogous representations, as detailed above. Disclosure of the omitted information, including information in the studies referred to supra in Section II, was necessary to avoid the false impression of safety provided by that tagline. Second, Defendant was in a position to know of the omitted information, both from its own product knowledge and creation decisions and the studies of the presence of DA and AP in its e-liquids, especially as described in the studies and test results, including Defendant’s own test results referenced supra in Section II, while consumers were not reasonably in a position to be aware of Defendant’s internal product information or such studies. Third, Defendant actively failed to disclose these material facts to, or actively concealed these material facts from, Plaintiffs and the Class. Finally, while Defendant made representations about the risks associated with its e-liquids, stating that its products contain nicotine and that consumers bear risks related thereto, those representations were misleading half- truths because they implied that those are all of the risks relating to the product, when, in fact, they are not.

*Bold and underline emphasis mine.

Also is brought up in several other areas of the document, as there is more than 1 count, and more than one way in which the emphasized points are conveyed.
 

herb

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 21, 2014
4,850
6,723
Northern NJ native , Coastal NC now.
The core issue is harm. They have to prove harm in order to prove their proper
disclosure claim. One cannot bring a suite because they do not like something.
At the bare minimum it has to actually be causing harm in the application it is being
used in.
That means they have sick vapers to bring as witnesses and would answer the
question we all have been asking. Are diketones in the juice harming people?
I can see now how this litigation is going to solve so many issues for us.
:2c:
Regards
Mike


If they are asking for damages they need to prove harm but don't think thats required if no financial damages are sought , could be wrong of course.

Sounds like some people are hell bent on sticking it to 5P.
 

herb

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Mar 21, 2014
4,850
6,723
Northern NJ native , Coastal NC now.
There are Many Laws regarding "Truth in Advertising" and about making claims about the Absence (or Presence) of an Ingredient(s) in a Consumable product.

There maybe be Variations from State to State. And some States may have Laws Requiring Warning Labels where other might not.

Here's the Thing though. This case will be Reviewed for Legal Merit before it is allowed to Continue. So if the Suit Bringers do not have a Legal Right to bring forth the Suit, it will get Tossed out or Modified.


OK thanks.
 
  • Like
Reactions: zoiDman

zoiDman

My -0^10 = Nothing at All*
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Apr 16, 2010
41,619
1
84,743
So-Cal
The core issue is harm. They have to prove harm in order to prove their proper disclosure claim.

This is True. There does have be a Injured Party for there to be a Remedy granted.

But what Some People Can't Seem to Wrap their Heads around in this Thread, and the Others like this, is that in this Suit, the Harm was Monetary Harm. And not Physical Harm.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread