Diacetyl Free - Does it Matter?

[skoony]

Have they not done any lab tests on exposure to the inhalation risks of the flavourings?

There have been tests using flavorings on lab animals and cell cultures that indicated that
they could be harmful. However these tests were done with the flavorings alone in pure
form.
There have been many tests using e-juice with lab animals,cell cultures and healthy
tissue samples indicating e-juice causes virtually no harm.
To my knowledge there have been no studies specifically using e-juice with known high
concentrations of diketones dispersed and suspended in the juice to determine if any
harm is caused.
The specific harm people fear is OB, bronchiolitis obliterans ,or more popularly called
popcorn lung. This is an extremely rare lung disease found only in lung transplant patients
when the body rejects the lungs prior to an outbreak between the late 1990's thru the
early 2000's that occurred in factory's where the flavorings were used or made. just this
year 2 more cases were reported stemming from a coffee roasting plant in Texas.
All told less than 30 cases have been reported. All but 1 having occurred in factory settings.
not only is this extremely rare its occurrence appears extremely rare even in settings it is
most likely to happen. Namely commercial processing plants. Its interesting to note that
with the sub-ohming culture in the vape community there hasn't been any reported cases
aside from obvious accidents of any serious damage or disease.
In the end its an individuals responsibility to decide what is right for them.
there is a diketone free vendors thread in the e-juice forum for those concerned.

Diketones-free vendors

Regards
Mike

 

[Zach M]

The truth is, that "certified diacetyl-free" juice may not be diacetyl free. Vendors really don't have any pressure to be truthful about it, and even the companies that have been proven to be lying about their diketone levels are still in business. In my opinion, and I realize people downright hate me for this opinion, it is imperative that we remove any suspicious chemicals from e-liquid. This includes diketones and food colorings.

This is why I am saying we should push people to be held responsible for the juice they make....You have a diversity of juice manufactures right now I think:
- Those that do not care about diacetyl / AP
- Those that acknowledge these chemicals and SAY they do not contain them
- Those that acknowledge these chemicals and have tests posted on the website proving they do not have the chemicals in them

Yes, companies may/have lied about being clean juice - but if they are having labs done from a third party and post those results, I think that is considered doing due diligence....If they continue testing / test every batch, I think that is going above and beyond, these companies are the ones that really care about what we are vaping

 

[Zach M]

I don't know why a bigger juice company is any different than a smaller one but the fact is the overwhelming majority of ALL juice companies (over 70%) use whatever ingredient's are required to make their juice taste good .

I was just saying larger juice companies b/c they have the means to and also are making juice in a lab...I know of more then enough "small companies" or house brands that are made where ever they feel like - personally, unless I know of the "small" company and have seen where they make the juice I don't really trust it. For example, one of the larger stores here in Austin has a house blend - and it is pretty good...One day I go over and I see the guys mixing the juice in the back of a truck bed....Truck bed wasn't even the bad part, in my mind, the part that put me over the edge is when they spilled the juice they picked up a rag that was sitting in the rusted truck bed - wiped off the rusted truck bed, wiped of his hands and then wiped off the bottles / lids of the juice...thats when I decided I wouldn't be getting juice from them anymore and that is also why I say "big" companies who make juice in a lab instead of bathroom sink or outside...

 

[nyiddle]

we should push

I agree, and to the best of my ability, I am "pushing" for diketones to be removed from all juice. I'm doing this by DIY-ing and refusing to purchase from any flavoring manufacturer that isn't explicitly publishing test results.

Until enough people are in on this "boycott" there isn't going to be any headway. But realistically, the vast majority of vapers don't even know what diketones are. And then there are the ones that do know, but (rightfully) don't care. It's an uphill battle, and (unfortunately) without some external body stepping in (AEMSA, FDA, I don't care.. Anyone) nothing is really going to get done.

 

[Jman8]

Posts #14 and 21 cover what I would say.

I'd just add that the leaked FDA document does note that FDA intends to find out about this, and about 12 other items found in eLiquid. So, not like it is just this one thing that has red flags for them.

Politically, it is (or could be) a big deal in much the same way nicotine is a big deal. Scientifically, it is peanuts, or equivalent to what we know science has confirmed about "harms associated with nicotine." But get a little fear mongering going, some anti indoctrination going on, and it becomes another example of "those greedy manufacturers aren't looking out for you, and are intentionally harming you." The less mature will fall for it hook, line and sinker.

I think in post FDA rule, it'll be something that has to be disclosed.... to the FDA. It may be something that FDA makes sure is disclosed to consumers, but doubt the FDA would require exact info be disclosed, and do think FDA will allow it to be in products sold, but just noted on label as, "this product may contain diacetyl."

To reiterate what post #14 and what FDA leaked doc is saying, you'd have to be looking at things very very narrowly to make a mountain out of this molehill. This will not be the only thing that comes down the pipeline and states level of harm associated with vaping. In fact, it wasn't the first thing, nor will it be the last. I'd say there's not an ingredient that won't be scrutinized and suggested (by anti types) as correlated with (high) degree of harm.

Ask for sound scientific evidence (as I have with Dr. F.) and suddenly you'll hear birds chirping. Try it, it's like magic.

 

[skoony]

Until enough people are in on this "boycott" there isn't going to be any headway.

Boycott? what on earth for?

without some external body stepping in (AEMSA, FDA, I don't care.. Anyone) nothing is really going to get done.

Not to worry the FDA will be stepping in to take care of this problem and, a lot of other
problems we even didn't know were problems.
Regards
Mike

 

[zoiDman]

So I've been on a recent binge, so to say, on finding diacetyl free juice companies...However, in looking I realized that some of the "bigger" juice companies I realize that the juices aren't diacetyl free. This makes me wounder - does it really matter? If so, why aren't we (as a community) not pushing manufactures to be diacetyl free?

Example/see: Bread Vape Co., Kilo, Cuttwood (some juice is diacetyle free and some are not), One Hit Wounder (some flavors contain diacetyle), Space Jam (some flavors are diacetyle free and some are not)

Sometimes things just get down to a Personal Choice.

Some Vaper's believe that Diketones in e-Liquids are an Avoidable Risk. And that there Elimination or Reduction is a Good Thing. Others do Not see a Problem with Inhaling Diketones in their e-Liquids.

Neither Side is Really Right or Wrong. Because what I choose to Put or Not Put into My Lungs doesn't Effect what Another chooses to Put or Not Put in theirs.

As to the "Community" pushing that e-Liquids are Diketone Free? I think that the Community is with the Bounds of a Free Market.

If I don't want Diketones in my e-Liquids and an e-Liquid OEM/Retailer doesn't Offer a Diketone Free e-Liquid, then they Don't get my Federal Reserve Notes. In a Completely Free Market, this is the Only amount of "Pushing" that there is.

And we are still in a Free Market. At least for the Time Being.

---

BTW - Removing Diacetyl from and e-Liquid is Great. But if the Diacetyl is Replaced with Acetyl Propionyl then it is Probably Not Accomplishing much. Because Many Believe that Acetyl Propionyl has the Same Health Risk that Diacetyl has.

 

[Zach M]

I think consumers do have a right to know what they are injesting......if it is known. Most food related stuff is now. I suspect eliquid will be that way.

More posts / threads I read the more I think this should be the case, if you want to you can vape what ever you want but I think it should be made known what is in the juice. Too many times have I heard people say - why does it matter, it tastes good - well I just want to know whats going in my body...

No real tests have been done on the effects of VAPING diacetyle or diacetyle substittues, just because studies haven't been done does not mean it is not possibly bad for you...granted on the flip side, if it turns out these ingredients do not do any harm, I hope that doesn't mean everyone will start using them just because of "ease" ....I kind of think of it as "splenda" vs "real sugar" - yea, I'll drink something with splenda in it, but if I have the option of taking the drink with real sugar - i.e. Dublin Dr. Pepper - then I'll take the real thing / "healthier" option

 

[Zach M]

Not to worry the FDA will be stepping in to take care of this problem and, a lot of other
problems we even didn't know were problems.
Regards
Mike

Yeah its only a matter of time tell the FDA comes in and has some rules and regulations created for juice...just a matter of when and what I guess

 

[herb]

I was just saying larger juice companies b/c they have the means to and also are making juice in a lab...I know of more then enough "small companies" or house brands that are made where ever they feel like - personally, unless I know of the "small" company and have seen where they make the juice I don't really trust it. For example, one of the larger stores here in Austin has a house blend - and it is pretty good...One day I go over and I see the guys mixing the juice in the back of a truck bed....Truck bed wasn't even the bad part, in my mind, the part that put me over the edge is when they spilled the juice they picked up a rag that was sitting in the rusted truck bed - wiped off the rusted truck bed, wiped of his hands and then wiped off the bottles / lids of the juice...thats when I decided I wouldn't be getting juice from them anymore and that is also why I say "big" companies who make juice in a lab instead of bathroom sink or outside...

OMG , i understand what your saying now . Actually i have heard many similar stories about where and how some juice companies mix and it's mind boggling .

Some are very well known actually .

 

[Jman8]

Nothing preventing you/us from doing our own testing. If cost is a factor that you feel prevents you from testing the dozens of juices you have, then just realize that might be an issue for some vendors.

The idea that "we should know what's in our liquids" combined with, "I shouldn't have to do any work" equals - please FDA, regulate our products.

 

[herb]

Hi Herb ! I am so sorry. I just hit reply and quote like I always do......some kinda glitch. It's fixed now. Thanks for letting me know

No problem my friend , it's no biggie .

 

[Zach M]

Sometimes things just get down to a Personal Choice.

Some Vaper's believe that Diketones in e-Liquids are an Avoidable Risk. And that there Elimination or Reduction is a Good Thing. Others do Not see a Problem with Inhaling Diketones in their e-Liquids.

Neither Side is Really Right or Wrong. Because what I choose to Put or Not Put into My Lungs doesn't Effect what Another chooses to Put or Not Put in theirs.

---

BTW - Removing Diacetyl from and e-Liquid is Great. But if the Diacetyl is Replaced with Acetyl Propionyl then it is Probably Not Accomplishing much. Because Many Believe that Acetyl Propionyl has the Same Health Risk that Diacetyl has.

Yeah I understand there are substitutes - some of them aren't really even that better for you, I just put "Diacetyle" since that is the one people mostly know about... you still have Acetyle Propionyl, Butyric Acid and other Acetoins....Butyric Acid is the main chemical in stink bombs, makes you think what you are vaping o.o

 

[Zach M]

Nothing preventing you/us from doing our own testing. If cost is a factor that you feel prevents you from testing the dozens of juices you have, then just realize that might be an issue for some vendors.

The idea that "we should know what's in our liquids" combined with, "I shouldn't have to do any work" equals - please FDA, regulate our products.

The amount of money that juice companies make is crazy, if they can't "afford" to do labs on the flavors they make then you might be better off not buying juice from them...$200 investment from a company to test ingredients or a flavor isn't that much to how much they are making.

Telling the consumer, if you want to know what is in a $12 - $25 bottle of juice spend $200 to figure it out does not seem like a good thought process

 

[Jman8]

The amount of money that juice companies make is crazy, if they can't "afford" to do labs on the flavors they make then you might be better off not buying juice from them...$200 investment from a company to test ingredients or a flavor isn't that much to how much they are making.

Telling the consumer, if you want to know what is in a $12 - $25 bottle of juice spend $200 to figure it out does not seem like a good thought process

Telling the market you should do something that some consumers want is not a thought through process. You are free, right now, to choose different vendors. If no vendors are up to your standards of 'disclosed information' then it is in your best interest to do own testing.

Your $200 number is way off.

 

[skoony]

Yeah its only a matter of time tell the FDA comes in and has some rules and regulations created for juice...just a matter of when and what I guess

In a way its sad that a product that is as easy and safe to make as Kool Aid is coming
under such scrutiny.
Regards
Mike

 

[Zach M]

Telling the market you should do something that some consumers want is not a thought through process. You are free, right now, to choose different vendors. If no vendors are up to your standards of 'disclosed information' then it is in your best interest to do own testing.

I'm not saying the market should remove diacytle in full, read the thread, the biggest thing is just being transparent for what is in the juice....plenty of things that have "bad" ingredients but you can still purchase it / eat it, however you at least know you are eating or drinking something that is not "good" for you

Regarding WHO is responsible for product testing - from a U.S. legal standpoint

Imagine a kid with lead poisoning from the toy in a McD GladMeal. Who is legally liable?
* the kid, who shouldn’t have sucked on the toy
* McD, who sold the final product with their name on the box
* the factory that made the toy, because they violated U.S. regulations regarding painted toys
* the factory that produced the paint, because they violated U.S. regulations on lead levels in paint
* the factory that compounded the bulk ingredients with U.S. industry-accepted level of impurities
* the manufacturer of the bulk lead, a legal substance everywhere

Just a thought...

Your $200 number is way off.

How much is it to send juice to lab then?

 

[AzPlumber]

Unfortunately unbiased studies are a rarity these days. You can easily find a study that supports either side of an issue. For me, the fact that no one has a reported case of OB (popcorn lung) from decades of smoking diacetyl and years of vaping diacetyl is more telling than any study. I think a bigger concern with the high wattage and low resistance is over heating and producing acrolein.

 

[sparkky1]

The amount of money that juice companies make is crazy, if they can't "afford" to do labs on the flavors they make then you might be better off not buying juice from them...$200 investment from a company to test ingredients or a flavor isn't that much to how much they are making.

Telling the consumer, if you want to know what is in a $12 - $25 bottle of juice spend $200 to figure it out does not seem like a good thought process

Did you read test studies somewhere or were told that inhaling artificial flavoring was harmless ? do you think the dozens of people that committed suicide while taking chantix knew what was in it ? but there doctor told them it was safe ? is it still FDA approved ?
Do you drink tap water ?

 

[nyiddle]

Yeah, this thread is going in the same direction as every other diketone thread..

The bottom line is this: Two groups of people.

One group will speculate that diketones are totally safe to inhale, and puff away on their custard juices. Maybe something bad happens, maybe nothing bad happens.

The other group will speculate that diketones are in some way harmful, maybe over a long period of time or maybe within a short period of time, and go out of their way to avoid companies using them. Nothing bad happens.

Neither group knows, but one group outright avoids potential negative consequences. Which group is smarter?