Diacetyl Free - Does it Matter?

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LouisLeBeau

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Unfortunately, the court will go by the wording as it is precisely written, not by what one thinks it's trying to say.

I cannot see this as being completely good for vaping in general. Time will tell since the ball has already started rolling down that slippery slope :(

Agreed Robino, it may not be good for vaping, but I think it IS good for vapers. Much like abolishing tobacco wouldn't be good for smoking, but would be good for smokers. :)

SERIOUSLY though, strictly from a deceptive marketing perspective, this needed to happen.
 
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sparkky1

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Any eliquid seller who makes false claims on the level 5P has deserves to be sitting under the scrutiny of the law...looks like 5P will be an example for the rest of the shady vendors. I couldn't be happier to see this lawsuit....5P earned it!!


Yaaa, let's get a rope and burn em !
Wonderful community we got here ................
 

sparkky1

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well.....vendors better start making D/AP free eliquid. then they will not be able to demonize eliquids with D/AP. :)

So it's ok if the hundreds of "toxic" chemicals that are in cigarettes and killing tens of thousands not to mention lying to the public for years, with a useless warning label on the side but we should fine and shut down totally un regulated juice company's for having the said "two" compounds in them ?
Would you please give me your information / link about the person or person's with BOS from vaping that is currently being "demonized" because I for one have heard nothing of the sort ....................
 

skoony

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SERIOUSLY though, strictly from a deceptive marketing perspective, this needed to happen.
The only deceptive marketing I am aware of is Vaporsmurfs and Cloud Air Nines.
Our stuff doesn't have this poison but, theirs does.
Nice try.
Regards
Mike
 

mcclintock

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    I looked up Beard Vape Co. (not "Bread") as mentioned by the OP. I checked #32 and #51 (custard) and both have less than 10 ppm diacetyl, although the #51 is loaded with Acetyl Prop. This is a "trace" level of DA, probably from breakdown of Acetoin (not tested for) and/or AP. Probably many juices that are claimed DA-free with test results are similar. Test results not including Acetoin and butyric acid (said to increase the bad effect of diketones, although I don't know any more) are incomplete. I've seen claims of up to 10% breakdown of Acetoin to DA when heated, such as to vape. Therefore it is more interesting than trace levels of DA.

    My guess is that DA damages are cumulative, not the DA itself. If the concentration is never high, there is no significant damage.
     

    sparkky1

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    I looked up Beard Vape Co. (not "Bread") as mentioned by the OP. I checked #32 and #51 (custard) and both have less than 10 ppm diacetyl, although the #51 is loaded with Acetyl Prop. This is a "trace" level of DA, probably from breakdown of Acetoin (not tested for) and/or AP. Probably many juices that are claimed DA-free with test results are similar. Test results not including Acetoin and butyric acid (said to increase the bad effect of diketones, although I don't know any more) are incomplete. I've seen claims of up to 10% breakdown of Acetoin to DA when heated, such as to vape. Therefore it is more interesting than trace levels of DA.

    My guess is that DA damages are cumulative, not the DA itself. If the concentration is never high, there is no significant damage.

    And if Acetoin and butyric acid are in the same recipe ?
     

    Jman8

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    Of course it will be bad for vaping in general. We are all here screaming for healthier alternative and reducing risk, but they are marketing it as such, but is proven wrong, when they themselves (redundant?) are members of an advocacy group that is for us. It disgusts me even more.

    Please back up the claim that 5P marketed their claims as DA/P free. This would be you finding a promotional piece intended for public viewing and that clearly claims their product is DA/P free.

    I'm pretty confident I know what you'll find, but it is not marketing materials.
     

    Jman8

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    Setting aside the Debate as to whether Diketones are Harmful or Not for a second.

    Where does the Issue of Advertising and Marketing come into Play?

    Does an e-Liquid OEM Have the Right to say that something is Not In an e-Liquid they produce when it Actual Is?

    And what happens when the OEM Knows that something is in an e-Liquid they Make/Sell when Asked by Consumers and or Interested Parties and then tells them it Isn't?

    And Lastly, should e-Liquid OEM's/Sellers receive a "Pass" just because they are Part of the Vaping Community? Or do Individuals have a Right to Seek Remedies thru the Courts if Wrong Doings can be Shown to have Occurred?

    I don't like seeing someone Bringing Forth a Lawsuit against an e-Liquid Company. And I agree, this Doesn't Help the e-Liquid Industry in general. I just wonder if we would be where we are Today if Five Pawns had just Told the Truth when First Asked if their e-Liquids contained either Da or AP?

    Let's say OEM is told by its supplier (for a specific ingredient) that it does not contain the thing in question. And then OEM passes along information to consumers when asked directly if it is in there. I understand your question to be, "do they have a right to say that the something is not in the eLiquid when it may actually be in there?"

    As that is how I understand both the question and the actual situation, I would say they do have the right. Me, I think it would be far better off to not mention that. But given how PC of an issue this was between 2010 and today, I'm not sure what response you give to customers that ask. Me, I'd go with it "it may be in there, I don't think it is."

    Your inquiry of "what happens when OEM knows something is in eLiquid and they tell people it isn't" is something I think needs to be shown that they (being a collective unit of people) all knew the exact thing, and arguably knew at the same time or within same time frame.

    Also does depend on the ingredient. Like say an eLiquid company is telling a customer that none of our products contain water, cause a customer is under impression that ingredients in all eLiquid is "water / water vapor." And a CSR person says, "nope, not in our products." But, the mixologist of same company actually knows that water is present in the ingredients at a molecular level. So if listing chemical composition, it would be known to all people that are part of "they" that tell customers what exactly is in the liquid. But as ingredients are only conveyed, then CSR is correct / honest to say that is not one of the ingredients, while technically mistaken given chemical makeup. CSR could even during a call, put customer on hold, and ask supervisor, "this customer is under impression we water down our product. Do we add water to our liquids?" And supervisor says no. Yet, mixologist knows the truth, but hasn't perhaps explained details of what precisely is occurring. So, perhaps not all of "they" are on same page.

    Finally, individuals definitely have a right to seek remedies through courts for wrong doings. Hopefully their case is strong and not frivolous. You know, like basing an entire case on alleged potential harms, rather than actual harm.
     

    Elizabeth Baldwin

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    I agree.

    Looks like they covered their butts on the age verification page!
     

    Jman8

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    Products sold by Five Pawns Inc. have not been reviewed by the FDA and are not intended to treat, diagnose, prevent or cure any disease.

    Claiming a product is DA/P free would be a claim that the product can prevent a disease. Would be a really questionable thing to go with that claim by any company. Feel sorry for any company that does, even if they are DA/P free.
     

    Jman8

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    "When diacetyl was raised as a concern, we moved to source solely diacetyl-free ingredients..."

    ...is not a claim that they were or are diacetyl-free. Is a claim that they heard a concern, and chose to move in that direction.

    Essentially is saying our company will no longer use flavoring manufacturers that simply tell us that their flavors are DA free. That harmed us, and a whole bunch of other vendors in recent years, from a consumer trust angle. We won't be making that mistake again.
     
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    Elizabeth Baldwin

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    Claiming a product is DA/P free would be a claim that the product can prevent a disease. Would be a really questionable thing to go with that claim by any company. Feel sorry for any company that does, even if they are DA/P free.

    Saying they moved to source DA/P free does not equate to claims of preventing a disease!
     

    Mazinny

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    I never read on their website that they are AP free. I was told on the phone though. There were also emails stating the same circulating on Reddit when the story first broke.

    This case will not be decided on the relative harm or potential harm of diketones. It will be decided on whether FP knowingly lied about the presence of diketones in their liquid, and whether a group of people ( class ) bought their liquid based on this misrepresentation. Customers who would otherwise not have purchased the eliquid.

    The best analogy i could come up with is if a customer asks whether a product is GMO-free and the vendor told them yes when they knew otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's proven that GMO foods are harmful or not, only that a group of people relied on the misrepresentation when making a purchase.
     

    Jman8

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    Saying they moved to source DA/P free does not equate to claims of preventing a disease!

    Agreed. But claiming that the product is DA/P free would. It is not necessary to be stated really.

    Which is why I don't believe FDA would ever require it, and may even prevent it, because that would indicate to customers that the disease associated with DA/P is prevented by using this product that is free of it.

    I see FDA allowing it in all eLiquid, up to a limit, and that limit (or exact amount) being crystal clear to FDA, and not known to consumers. FDA would plausibly require a warning along lines of "this product may contain traces of diacetyl."
     

    Elizabeth Baldwin

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    I never read on their website that they are AP free. I was told on the phone though. There were also emails stating the same circulating on Reddit when the story first broke.

    This case will not be decided on the relative harm or potential harm of diketones. It will be decided on whether FP knowingly lied about the presence of diketones in their liquid, and whether a group of people ( class ) bought their liquid based on this misrepresentation. Customers who would otherwise not have purchased the eliquid.

    The best analogy i could come up with is if a customer asks whether a product is GMO-free and the vendor told them yes when they knew otherwise. Doesn't matter if it's proven that GMO foods are harmful or not, only that a group of people relied on the misrepresentation when making a purchase.

    If they win this lawsuit it will be a nail in the coffin for vaping. It will be used to prove how shady eliquid companies are if left to their own regulations. As a community of vapers we don't need that!
     

    ImThatGuy

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    ...is not a claim that they were or are diacetyl-free. Is a claim that they heard a concern, and chose to move in that direction.

    Essentially is saying our company will no longer use flavoring manufacturers that simply tell us that their flavors are DA free. That harmed us, and a whole bunch of other vendors in recent years, from a consumer trust angle. We won't be making that mistake again.

    Diacetyl-free...you asked for it to be quoted. You asked, I delivered.
     
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    CasketWeaver

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    Even if DA/P are bad for me - I'm still going to vape my custards / creams... want to know why? I've accepted the risks associated from "Untested" equipment. We do it everyday. We put toxins in our systems on the daily to include DA/P. Whether we want to acknowledge and accept it or not is on us as consumers. Do I agree that everyone should mark their bottles to say "MAY CONTAIN DA/P"? Sure - it couldn't hurt. Should they test EVERYTHING before putting it on shelves to ensure it meets required criteria? Sure - it couldn't hurt and may actually justify the rising prices of liquids from some manufacturers. Am I still going to vape it although it's dangerous for me? Absolutely, because I smoked for the better half of 11-13 years and I was exposed to second-hand smoke for as long as I can remember... am I going to go on about that? No, because it's really not that important to me. For me to inhale 2000+ known toxins from cigarettes on a daily basis for the 20+ years that I smoked / exposed to smoke vs. inhale vapor that may contain DA/P... well, I'll just take my chances now won't I?

    The point of my short (and frankly) to the point response to all this - life is like a game of Russian Roulette... with a semi-automatic pistol with 1 live round in the chamber, one day you're going to have to pull the trigger and leave the world behind.

    But to go on fighting about whether something should / shouldn't be there is kind of a moot point. It's moot because you have 3 categories of people - ones that care whether or not it should be there, ones that could care less whether or not it should be there, and those that don't know whether or not it should be there. The 3rd group consist of the people that WE (as vapers) should be concerned about. Why? Because they are more likely than not - smokers that are thinking of changing to vaping. With all this fighting back and forth about DA/P and everything else WE (as vapers) bicker back and forth about may scare them away - or better yet - give them a bad impression about who WE (vapers) are.

    Yes I needed to clarify who WE are multiple times because it just seems WE are more divided than WE need to be.
     
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