FDA Discussion of SFATA conference & FDA proposal on VP Live radio

[Gato del Jugo]

I believe this aired on Tuesday (click the orange & white Play button)..

https://soundcloud.com/#vp-live/cen...-dimitris-cisco-and-kevin-on-fighting-the-fda


Sounds like there will be more on it when the replay of Wednesday's show comes out...

https://soundcloud.com/#vp-live



I've been really digging these shows..

Thanks, guys.. Keep 'em coming!

 

[tombaker]

Thanks for links....I got a password request screen from them.
Might be easier to go to the source site Vapers Place - Show Schedule and Replays

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Thanks for links....I got a password request screen from them.
Might be easier to go to the source site Vapers Place - Show Schedule and Replays

Thanks for the additional link, for those who might need it.. And oddly enough, that one doesn't work for me!


Anyway, what I find highly disturbing from Tuesday's show is that it's sounding like the FDA is also going after zero-nic e-liquid..

This reg-proposal garbage is going way too far...

 

[LDS714]

Anyway, what I find highly disturbing from Tuesday's show is that it's sounding like the FDA is also going after zero-nic e-liquid..

I was wondering about that.

One possible 'loophole' could be selling flavored 0-nic as well as nic to put in it post-purchase. For example, 90 ml. of flavored 0-nic in a 100 ml. bottle, then purchase a 10 ml. bottle of 6% nic solution to mix in to make 6 mg juice. That way, only the unflavored nic solution would have to get the approval.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

Try this link: https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/smoke-free-radio-episode-3

I'm still listening to it, but I haven't heard that 0% was hit by the FDA. I don't know how they can do that, unless they can prove that ther are trace amounts (i.e. through contamination). That shouldn't occur w/ a clean room and good practices.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

I was wondering about that.

One possible 'loophole' could be selling flavored 0-nic as well as nic to put in it post-purchase. For example, 90 ml. of flavored 0-nic in a 100 ml. bottle, then purchase a 10 ml. bottle of 6% nic solution to mix in to make 6 mg juice. That way, only the unflavored nic solution would have to get the approval.

Read that again: Apparently the FDA is also going after zero-nic e-liquid -- which contains ZERO tobacco -- only made from VG, distilled water & any flavorings, for example..

You will not be able to buy zero-nic unless you either buy the components separately & DIY, or go through those who can afford to continue to market it, like BT...

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Try this link: https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/smoke-free-radio-episode-3

I'm still listening to it, but I haven't heard that 0% was hit by the FDA. I don't know how they can do that, unless they can prove that ther are trace amounts (i.e. through contamination). That shouldn't occur w/ a clean room and good practices.

It's the show before that one..


"Central Park Vaping Civil Disobedience Protest - Dimitris Cisco and Kevin on fighting the FDA"

https://soundcloud.com/#vp-live/cen...-dimitris-cisco-and-kevin-on-fighting-the-fda

 

[LDS714]

Read that again: Apparently the FDA is also going after zero-nic e-liquid -- which contains ZERO tobacco -- only made from VG, distilled water & any flavorings, for example..

You will not be able to buy zero-nic unless you either buy the components separately & DIY, or go through those who can afford to continue to market it, like BT...

That would be tough to enforce. Honestly, what's the difference between Mio, Dasani, Arizona Green Tea and other "water enhancers" and 0-nic "e-liquids?" Oh wait, I see - fewer ingredients in the 0-nic e-liquids...

 

[Gato del Jugo]

That would be tough to enforce. Honestly, what's the difference between Mio, Dasani, Arizona Green Tea and other "water enhancers" and 0-nic "e-liquids?" Oh wait, I see - fewer ingredients in the 0-nic e-liquids...

I believe the difference lies between those you mentioned being regulated as food products (which have a much lower threshhold) versus e-liquid being regulated as a tobacco product..


Not saying it's fair or right or makes any logical sense, but that's how they're going about it...

 

[DC2]

"Central Park Vaping Civil Disobedience Protest - Dimitris Cisco and Kevin on fighting the FDA"

https://soundcloud.com/#vp-live/cen...-dimitris-cisco-and-kevin-on-fighting-the-fda

Oh man, I LOVE Russ for doing this.
This is exactly what we need.


I will participate in any such civil disobedience efforts.
And in the future I may be instigating my own.

 

[2coils]

Oh man, I LOVE Russ for doing this.
This is exactly what we need.


I will participate in any such civil disobedience efforts.
And in the future I may be instigating my own.

I am trying to get off of work to attend! For me, 45 min away!!! Russ and the rest of the guys at VP are all up for a good fight and great advocates for our industry!!! If I can get there, I will!!!!

Anyone concerned about the regulatory climate.... there shows (Vapers Place) will have valuable guests and information moving forward. Definitely worth a listen!

 

[DC2]

I so freaking wish I could go....

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Try this link: https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/smoke-free-radio-episode-3

Just listened to Wednesday's show, the one with the audio clips from the SFATA conference, which you linked..


Two glaringly obvious things:


1.) SFATA's lawyer & a speaker at the conference had spent decades at the FDA & at one point was the FDA's head counsel? And this guy is now supposedly fighting for the vaping industry??

I acknowlege the perceived need for a good chunk of the vaping industry to better understand the whole thing in order to help navigate the FDA waters.. But you mean to tell me that this guy currently has absolutely zero ties to the FDA & that he can be fully trusted not to steer the group down the wrong path, leading them down a dead-end & to a death-trap?? Again:


2.) Ah, yes.. The head counsel, I believe it was, of Lorillard (parent company of blu) was also a speaker there.. Somehow having BT as a leading member is viewed as a good thing? Again, helping to lead the group to their slaughter, while scouting out which vape companies might be ripe for & investment-worthy of an eventual BT takeover, with reps of these other companies hoping, even begging, they'll be picked to sit at the lunch table of the "popular kids"...

And a third time:


SFATA?

Complete joke...

 

[LDS714]

I believe the difference lies between those you mentioned being regulated as food products (which have a much lower threshhold) versus e-liquid being regulated as a tobacco product..


Not saying it's fair or right or makes any logical sense, but that's how they're going about it...

Right. So if certain 'water enhancers' got nicotine added to them after purchase...

Basically my point was that if unflavored nic were to be approved in the proper concentrations, a B&M could be a vendor for that as well as their own line of 'water enhancers.'

 

[Jman8]

Right. So if certain 'water enhancers' got nicotine added to them after purchase...

Basically my point was that if unflavored nic were to be approved in the proper concentrations, a B&M could be a vendor for that as well as their own line of 'water enhancers.'

Exactly. I took your point as being one about enforcement and how it would be very challenging to keep up with. To say they'll nab somebody is a given. To say they'll nab most people is preposterous. To say they'll nab everyone is literally impossible, unless they also nab themselves in said process.

People act like part of our future going forward is vaping vendors sticking to the label of 'vaping vendor' and having big old signs that say, "we are selling vaping gear over here! Come an get us some!"

A business could sprout up that has zero intent on producing vape gear, but because of word of mouth from vapers becomes 'ideal place' in which to purchase certain products. 20% of their business from vapers (that they never meet, and have no idea what vaping is) and 80% from non-vapers. But FDA will magically use its super human powers to get that business shut down.

 

[LDS714]

I dunno. When laws changed drastically in Texas in the 80s regarding consumption of certain plant material and devices with which to do so, many 'tobacco shops' did a booming business in 'vases' and 'lamp parts.'

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

It's the show before that one..


"Central Park Vaping Civil Disobedience Protest - Dimitris Cisco and Kevin on fighting the FDA"

https://soundcloud.com/#vp-live/cen...-dimitris-cisco-and-kevin-on-fighting-the-fda

I assume you mean this link: https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/smoke-free-radio-episode-2 (the other one requires a login).

Anyway I don't have time to listen to the whole thing. Do you have any idea who said that the FDA is going after 0%? That matters, because not everyone understands some of these issues.

Frankly, I think the FDA may be captive to many special interests, and numerous folks in positions of authority may be downright craven ... but they are not insane.

The FDA has no authority to regulate 0% nic. liquid under the FSPTCA. It might be able to regulate it, if it's sold as a therapy (e.g. for cessation), or if sold with products that are "intended anticipated for use with a covered tobacco product."

But 0% e-liquid - by itself - cannot be regulated under the FSPTCA. Period.

 

[aikanae1]

They have learned their lessons from the drug war and I doubt they will leave personal consumption as an option. They will want that too. The DOJ is loaded with top level ex-industry lawyers (the revolving door syndrome) and vaping has a bottom line that is dollars to industry. A single person breaking the "law" in this case = some company not getting their business, not making a profit which is = to stealing. That is their thinking. It's cheaper to legislate and regulate the marketplace than it is to compete in the marketplace. That's the business model.

Exactly. I took your point as being one about enforcement and how it would be very challenging to keep up with. To say they'll nab somebody is a given. To say they'll nab most people is preposterous. To say they'll nab everyone is literally impossible, unless they also nab themselves in said process.

People act like part of our future going forward is vaping vendors sticking to the label of 'vaping vendor' and having big old signs that say, "we are selling vaping gear over here! Come an get us some!"

A business could sprout up that has zero intent on producing vape gear, but because of word of mouth from vapers becomes 'ideal place' in which to purchase certain products. 20% of their business from vapers (that they never meet, and have no idea what vaping is) and 80% from non-vapers. But FDA will magically use its super human powers to get that business shut down.

 

[Jman8]

But 0% e-liquid - by itself - cannot be regulated under the FSPTCA. Period.

Do you think the OP of "common misconceptions" thread would disagree with this assertion?

 

[Gato del Jugo]

I assume you mean this link: https://soundcloud.com/vp-live/smoke-free-radio-episode-2 (the other one requires a login).

Anyway I don't have time to listen to the whole thing. Do you have any idea who said that the FDA is going after 0%? That matters, because not everyone understands some of these issues.

Frankly, I think the FDA may be captive to many special interests, and numerous folks in positions of authority may be downright craven ... but they are not insane.

The FDA has no authority to regulate 0% nic. liquid under the FSPTCA. It might be able to regulate it, if it's sold as a therapy (e.g. for cessation), or if sold with products that are "intended anticipated for use with a covered tobacco product."

But 0% e-liquid - by itself - cannot be regulated under the FSPTCA. Period.

No, that's not the link..


I'm not sure why some people need to log in to listen to it.. I've never needed to for any of the VP Live shows..

And I'm not sure why some people can't find it.. But here's the link once again (which can be found at the list of recent replays of VP Live shows)..

I honestly can't help you any further with that.. Google the title of the show if you need to...

https://soundcloud.com/#vp-live/cen...-dimitris-cisco-and-kevin-on-fighting-the-fda


Title of the show: Central Park Vaping Civil Disobedience Protest - Dimitris Cisco and Kevin on fighting the FDA

It was aired live this past Tuesday & the replay was posted this past Wednesday..


Dimitris starts talking about zero-nic e-liquid being regulated at the 1:18:27 mark, and the conversation lasts for a few minutes..

It was discussed at Monday's SFATA conference, and apparently came from SFATA's lawyer -- you know, the guy who was at the FDA for 25 years & at one point was the FDA's head counsel -- so if you're any bit suspicious of his intent in this role, take what this lawyer says with a large grain of salt...

I really don't trust this FDA guy (or any the BT bigwigs who took part in this conference).. I think they're involved with the intention to scare the poop out of all these companies (perhaps with half-truths & attacking from different angles) in hopes that some eventually give in to BT & get acquired at a lower price-tag than they probably should, or make plans to fold up, or to slow down any innovation / new products, etc.. And also to steer these companies down the wrong path/dead-ends (again, with half-truths & half-logic) when it comes to any lawsuits, so these smaller vape companies & advocate groups end up burning their valuable & limited resources to fight this war...

Again, BT & BP want this industry decimated, with the FDA doing their bidding.. And BT will sift through the ashes & cherry-pick for themselves what's worth buying, most likely at a nice discount...