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DIY Extracts First Attempt Pre-Steep Results

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by Cas002, Feb 7, 2018.

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  1. Cas002

    Cas002 Full Member

    Feb 4, 2018
    Omaha NE
    This past weekend I decided to experiment and make some homemade extracts for vaping. My last purchase of juice included some plain PG and VG so I had the base to build on. I also bought 2 organic vanilla beans from Amazon and some cinnamon sticks at the supermarket. I had been reading as much as I could online about extracts for the previous few weeks. Based on that research, I decided to extract coffee, vanilla beans and cinnamon for V 1.0.

    THE EXTRACTION
    COFFEE
    The coffee was the daily favorite for my family - Starbucks Italian Roast beans which I crushed with a mortar & pestle. I didn't want to grind too fine for this first round to keep particle sizes higher and facilitate filtration. Used a heaping tablespoon of beans, ground them up a little, and topped with about 40 ml of PG in mason jar. Added to pan with water on stove and maintained temp below boil (just a few small bubbles) for about 60 min stirring often and covered half the time. Strained three times in coffee filter, each time less sediment...man that [edited] extract is still dark. I had about 20 ml of concentrate left.

    VANILLA
    I started with one bean split down the middle and cut into 3 pieces in about 20ml of PG in mason jar. Added to pan with water on stove and maintained temp below boil for about 2 1/2 hours stirring often. Strained once in coffee filter and yellow and clear and had about 15 ml. I later took the remaining bean material, split and cut the other bean, and added another 30ml of PG to both and still steeping - getting a little darker every day. I've read you need 4-8 weeks minimum to get optimal flavor.

    CINNAMON
    One cinnamon stick in about 30ml of PG (I heard it's strong). Still sitting in PG and stir at least 3X per day and also getting darker daily but not as fast as vanilla. In 2015 there were many reported issues related to cinnamon flavors posted online related to lung, throat and mouth, including sores. All the cases I read about were from purchased juice and not sure if it's the juice flavoring or the actual cinnamon. When I get around to trying, it I'll report back.

    PRE-STEEP TASTE TEST
    The coffee extract tastes and smells great. I mixed about 25% concentrate with VG. I added a few drops of the vanilla extract, about 15 drops of sucralose and tried the 20 ml juice sample. It wasn't a strong flavor but I could definitely taste the coffee and vanilla and it was a little sweet. I vaped about 2-3 ml and could start seeing some fine dark (coffee) residue in my tank - early indication of future coil issues. I think that's a good start pre-steep but needs work. I tried the vanilla alone earlier today after just 2 days of steeping w/o heat and it's really, really good but the flavor needs to be a bit stronger. No cinnamon sampling yet.

    NEXT STEPS
    Let the cinnamon and vanilla steep more. I may add more heat over the weekend to accelerate the process for vanilla - cinnamon still worries me but will make it stronger and I'll sample soon. I might lose some breadth and/or depth of flavor with more heat but I'm impatient :) I need to research filtration options. Based on my research, coffee filters are about 20-50 microns and to get all the crap out that gunks up coils, you need 2-5 micron filtration. In the future I might explore the alcohol extraction method to get around the PG saturation limitations but then I have to let all the alcohol evaporate because I don't want to vape it, despite research that indicates small amounts are fine.

    I hope that adds some value for anyone that likes to tinker with extracts. This is just my 2nd post since I joined 3 days ago and look forward to following up and making more contributions.

    Cas002
     
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  2. Shadowfart

    Shadowfart Full Member

    Nov 10, 2016
    I would like to warn you that making coffee ejuice that way makes it quite dangerous to inhale - it may cause severe pain and coughing in the lungs and I've read it may cause pneumonia.

    Not sure about the other extracts... But I'm certain the coffee one is not okay.
     
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  3. Cas002

    Cas002 Full Member

    Feb 4, 2018
    Omaha NE
    Shadow, thanks for the feedback. Do you have any additional info you can share to help me, and other ECF members, better understand how or why this happens? Is it the burning of the coffee particles that made it through the filter? Could it be the oil in the whole beans? Caffeine? I have been vaping just a little in the AM with my liquid coffee and no noticeable issues yet. I know I am venturing into unknown territory with extracts so trying to understand as much of the science behind it as possible. Thank you!
     
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  4. Stoneface

    Stoneface Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2013
    New York
    About 4 or 5 years ago, one ECF member @Kurt warned us about vaping some organic extracts. Unfortunately, that thread has been lost (probably when ECF moved). I'm not a chemist, but he made some very compelling arguments.

    When the "cinnamon challenge" was all the rage, there were numerous warnings in the press about inhaling cinnamon and irritation of breathing passages. I personally wouldn't recommend inhaling a homemade organic cinnamon extract.
     
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  5. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    I don't think I'd try to vape using extracts either. I have heard coffee can be pretty dangerous but they all can. I haven't read the science behind it but it does sort of "make sense" to me, given that there is a vast difference between using flavoring extracts and actual raw materials. Hopefully someone else can explain the science behind its danger, but I would proceed with caution if at all.

    Anna
     
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  6. Shadowfart

    Shadowfart Full Member

    Nov 10, 2016
    Taken from leaf.tv:

    "Coffee beans contain natural oils which are activated by heat application. Often referred to as "essence" or chemically known as caffeol"

    Pneumonia can be caused by inhaling most oils and caffeol is one of them.

    The effects of caffeine when vaped are
    unknown - lots of theories and anecdotal evidence. I'd stay clear of it until more research is done on it... Even if caffeine turns out as safe to inhale, the ammout of caffeine absorbed through your lungs is probably too small to have any effects.
     
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  7. Shadowfart

    Shadowfart Full Member

    Nov 10, 2016
    .
     
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  8. untar

    untar Senior Member

    Feb 7, 2018
    Germany
    I didn't do any extracts apart from tobacco based ones. In addition to what's said above I can tell you that it is, for a normal person without a lab, almost impossible to rid your extract from natural sugars stored in the plant matter. That will gunk up your coils faster than the most sucralose-ridden eliquid you know. Using ethanol as a solvent instead of pg/vg can help with that a bit, as does letting it sit and only taking the top part.

    We usually don't vape flavors based on oils, in many cases that's probably exactly what you're producing when extracting this way. Stop vaping immediately when you get hints of adverse effects and dump the stuff or stir it into a cake.

    Nevertheless I wish you good luck, I can understand all too well what you're doing ;).
     
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  9. Letitia

    Letitia Nano Junkie

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    You need to do more in depth research before inhaling more of your extracts. Many of the food extracts we use for vaping have been modified for safe inhalation.
     
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  10. Cas002

    Cas002 Full Member

    Feb 4, 2018
    Omaha NE
    All of your opinions have been very valuable - thank you. I knew the oils were an issue and have started to narrow my research, for now, on coffee. Shadow's reference to the coffee oil "caffeol" has been very helpful in research. I looked at the differences in specific gravity for caffeol and PG and they are too close to allow for separation over time to skim the oil out. Roasted beans may be easier to extract oils from so unroasted may be a better option - more research needed. I assume there is "some" oil in vanilla bean but not researched yet, but the extract tastes so good - I'll roll the dice a little. Cinnamon is from stick so I expect oils to be a minor issue but the history with that flavor requires extreme caution - not sampled yet. Here's the good news - I love to cook and bake so the coffee extract, and what I don't vape of the vanilla and cinnamon, will be used for baking! :thumbs:

    You guys are awesome, thanks!

    Cas002
     
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  11. Stoneface

    Stoneface Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2013
    New York
    I'm just glad that you didn't get hurt with any of it. Best of luck! :thumb:
     
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  12. retired1

    retired1 Administrator Admin Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Apr 5, 2013
    Texas
    Nope. Nothing has been lost. Just have to dig deep for it.
     
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  13. Burnie

    Burnie The Bug Man Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    Jul 1, 2009
    Sunny Florida
    Might this be the thread?
    Doc Kurt Kistler's warning about organic flavors .
    The video linked in the first post is long, but worth a watch.
     
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  14. Stoneface

    Stoneface Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2013
    New York
    OK...so I did search yesterday. I found one thread title on Google that I could not open, and I got a "does not exist" error. Maybe it was lost, maybe not...I'm not a digital expert by any means.

    After doing more searching today, I did find this post:
    No one talks organic?

    I thought there was a thread with more about homemade extracts. I started researching DIY on this forum years ago, so it's possible my memory is fuzzy.
     
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  15. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Might check the "not advisable" forum. For posts about extracts, I mean. IDK if there was ever a thread with "approved" extract methodology, but I'm not looking for one, mainly because when it comes to DIY, I really genuinely feel that flavorings are far safer and have a longer track record in vaping. Plus, you know, love to run with a herd and all that. But, the amount of time it would probably take me to get a "good" extract, coupled with the unknown, keeps me firmly wanting to not try natural extracts....

    Anna
     
  16. Cas002

    Cas002 Full Member

    Feb 4, 2018
    Omaha NE
    The journey continues. No new research on extracts for vaping but often when researching, tangential angles can be fruitful. It turns out that the cinnamon and vanilla bean extracts are high in anti-inflammatory and antioxidant compounds which are great for me with a broken back, fractured hip and total knee replacement...yeah, I'm a real piece of work after my motorcycle accident 35 years ago. I started using those extracts daily sublingually over the last 4 days and have noticed a great improvement in my chronic pain - I take no pain meds and no other factors have changed, including weather or activity level. No, it's not a scientific study but just my short-term insights with no data correlations.

    As far as vaping, I ordered some TFA flavors and look forward to mixing it up to generate a good water soluble recipe that I can use going forward. I love to research, experiment and tinker but getting too old to take unknown risks :)

    Cas002
     
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  17. Spydro

    Spydro Sindoyen Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Apr 20, 2013
    Spylandia
    Just going to touch some basic bases here because there is endless information about extracting flavors, the methods used, pros, cons and pitfalls available on line (what can and cannot normally be done without highly specialized equipment and techniques).

    Flavors can safely be ingested, but not all safely inhaled. IE, essential oils are generally accepted as safe to vape. In the simplest general terms nut/drupe oils are not. Coffee beans are drupes.

    Home made coffee extracts contain lipids that can build up in the lungs and lead to lipoid pneumonia. The species of the coffee plant dictates the percentage of lipids present, the methods used to process also effects the end product. How different people react to lipids is an individual thing from no issues to bad issues. The symptoms and known cures can be found on-line.

    After doing exhaustive research for years I decided to make many of my own flavor extracts... the ones that I could do correctly in my home lab with the lab equipment I have. I made that decision for myself and for my own personal DIY joose only. It's at my risk only, I will not take any responsibility for others.

    Everyone who wants to extract should take the responsibility to do the same themselves and decide for themselves before diving blindly into extracting for vaping. Be sure of your source, arm chair experts are a dime a dozen on-line.

    As a coffee freak who has drank it black in copious amounts for nearly 65 years, I like DIY coffee vapes. I obviously have a cast iron stomach, and I do have very strong lungs despite smoking pipes and cigs for over 50 years before I quite 5 years ago. Even so I have to accept that there is a possible risk present with my coffee vapes. But it's a risk I am willing to take this close to the end of my trail.

    Be informed when buying liquids for vaping as well. With the very high profit potential selling pre made eliquids many people are selling extracts/joose that were made at home. Most not in a lab environment, just on their kitchen table, in the garage, and from possibly questionable ingredients.

    Passing this ball on...

    -

    Be an informed vaper, be a safe vaper and be a courteous vaper.
     
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  18. Stoneface

    Stoneface Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 12, 2013
    New York
    I'm really glad you found a good use for the work you've already put in, and that you're feeling better for it. :thumb:
     
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  19. Cas002

    Cas002 Full Member

    Feb 4, 2018
    Omaha NE
    I wanted to provide a few quick updates. First, not vape related, today is 9 days after starting the vanilla bean & cinnamon extracts sublingually, and I finally started feeling some hip pain - during the winter I typically have the pain every 3-4 days. Good validation to keep using it every AM.

    Received my order on TFA flavors - Ripe Strawberry, Juicy Pineapple & Guava.

    TFA Guava: Get the HAZMAT gear on because this .... is STRONG! The flavors are very broad and floral with so many different notes it will keep your taste buds working hard. Do not use more than 1%, I started with 19% and almost had my family evacuate the house - it tastes better than it smells, apparently. Don't bother steeping or it might spontaneously combust.

    TFA Ripe Strawberry: This has great depth of flavor and very smooth. Great base flavor and I expect will mix well with other flavors. Probably 10-20% concentration in your recipe. Very good shake & vape.

    TFA Juicy Pineapple: Great flavor, good depth but not as strong as I had hoped. On the TFA website they talked about how strong the regular pineapple was so tried this first. I might have to try the original pineapple. Probably need at least 17-20% to get flavor, to my liking, from this.

    Cas002
     
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  20. Letitia

    Letitia Nano Junkie

    Supporting member
    Apr 2, 2017
    West Frankfort, IL
    SC pineapple is very good and Cap golden pineapple is a pretty close second.
     
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