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DIY liquid-Nic salts vs USP nicotine--pros and cons

Discussion in 'DIY E-Liquid' started by crammit442, Mar 5, 2018.

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  1. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    I've been making my own liquids for years using 100 mg/ml VG USP nicotine base. Is there a good reason to look into switching to 100 mg/ml VG Nicotine Salts base? I've read lots of info on nic salts and am not really sure if I'd see any benefit using salts over USP Nic. My juices are all mixed at 36mg/ml if that makes any difference. I'd appreciate input from those who've used both and what were your experiences and conclusions after using both. Thanks in advance!
    Charles
     
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  2. bombastinator

    bombastinator Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 12, 2010
    MN USA
    I personally don’t trust salts. A “salt” is just an acid and a base mixed together. It’s not very informative as to actual content.
     
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  3. mackman

    mackman Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Aug 19, 2013
    NorCal
    I had to try them after reading all the chatter. I got a $2.75 15ml sample of 100mg/ml 100%vg SMOOTH salt base Nude Nicotine (always liked their nic) and really like it. No throat hit and a clean faint sweet taste (it's 100%vg) mixed 30/70 pg/vg.
     
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  4. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    I'm a bit confused by the lack of throat hit. That's exactly what i'm looking for when I vape. Is salts then for those that don't want a throat hit?
    Also...I read salts are the stage before the freebase is seperated... more 'natural' than freebase.
    Do you get a different feeling or something from the salts compared to the freebase, or is the smoothness the only difference ?
     
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  5. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    I have vaped storebought freebase but DIY exclusively with nic salts. Nic salts tend to be "smoother" generally (although I think some vendors sell a "hard" vs a "soft" nic salts). I was actively looking for LACK of throat hit when I got here. If you are at 36 mg. nicotine, I would think if you can tolerate that, using nic salts might not be necessary. The reason salt juices tend to be on the high side (I think) is that you can go higher with less harshness. If you LIKE a nicotine hit, I'd say freebase would be the way to go.

    The only other (sorta maybe) difference is they might be slightly more rapid in absorption. I'm not sure I believe that claim.

    I get my nic salts from Nicotine River because they don't use benzoic acid. I prefer them, but I don't know that they are necessary for your situation and they are also more expensive generally.

    Anna
     
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  6. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    Yeah. Throat hit is not a worry of mine (unless it's missing). At 36 mg, I don't consciously feel the throat hit, but judging from the reactions most people have to my mods, I have to assume it's there. I went ahead and ordered a sample from Nude. I Also read the note about chemicals on river's site. Better bioavailability might be of benefit to me. I guess I'll see how the sample is and go from there. Thanks.
    Charles
     
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  7. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    What mg is your sample?
     
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  8. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    The sample is a 15 mg bottle of 100mg/ml nic salts in 100% VG. $2.75 is a pretty good deal for enough to actually try. I use 10.8 ml of USP Nic to make 30 ml of 36 mg juice. Should be plenty to make a 30 ml bottle of DIY of at least 36 mg.
    Charles
     
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  9. Fredman1

    Fredman1 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2017
    New Zealand
    I see...Plz let us know how the two compare.
    Should be very interesting...especially at that strenuous strength :cry::lol:
     
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  10. Shameless

    Shameless Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 31, 2015
    Waterford, Mi
    I would like to know how it compares as well, please
     
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  11. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    I've got a tracking number saying my sample will be here tomorrow. I've got a busy day, but should be able to mix something up tomorrow night. Gotta say; they definitely ship fast!
    Charles
     
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  12. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    My sample of Nude Nicotine Salts arrived today. They shipped really fast and it's very well packaged. Hopefully I'll get time tonight to make a batch of one of my regular DIY's using the salts instead of my regular USP Nicotine. I'm really curious to see if I notice much difference.
    Charles
     
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  13. Sloth Tonight

    Sloth Tonight Vaping Master Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jun 25, 2014
    Adirondacks
    I'm shocked NN shipped fast, that's good though. (not knocking NN,I love em, but shipping times are usually slow)
     
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  14. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    Didn't get to it last night, but did today. After all the reading I've done, I decided to make my one of my regular DIY's with Nic Salts at 50mg instead of my normal 36 mg. I ordered my sample as 100mg/ml, 100% VG, "Hit" version. I made a 30 ml batch of Peach Cream using Real Flavors Peach sc, Vanilla Custard sc, and TFA DX Bavarian Cream. Tastes differ wildly, but I REALLY like it. Freshly mixed, it's a soft, natural peach flavor w/a soft homemade ice cream feel to it. 50mg nic salts doesn't FEEL much different than 36mg USP nic. Throat hit isn't any stronger and it's very smooth. I feel the nicotine a very slight bit, but can't say if its just because there is more of it or because of better bioavailability. My initial gut feeling is that I may like using nic salts over USP Nicotine. Time will tell. Steeping will surely change things so I guess the jury is out for now. So far so good, though.
    Charles
     
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  15. Coyote628

    Coyote628 Super Member ECF Veteran

    Sep 16, 2017
    I like nicotine river's nic salt. Even at 6mg per. Its clear and doesnt really turn much color as it ages. My peach tobacco has colored some after a month or so but i think its the tobacco flavors that turned a bit yellow. The peach honeydew i made a month ago is still crystal clear. And, btw, this one is mellowing nicely. Huge smooth clouds too. Nic salt is definitely a thing to look into. I suspect that i could go as high as 12mg per even in a subohm setup and i may try that theory just to see. But thats just me. I like to live on the edge.
     
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  16. stols001

    stols001 Mistress of the Dark Nicotinic Arts Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Supporting member
    May 30, 2017
    Tucson, AZ
    Yes, nic salts do have some pluses to them (including, I just read, possibly more stable "form" of nicotine and will keep better. I don't run into issues using them, and have noticed very few color changes in my juices..

    Just go easy on the 12 m.g. in a sub0hm device there, it's not ENTIRELY living on the edge, but it does seem to be approaching it... Heh.

    Anna
     
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  17. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    After using the Peach Cream st 50mg/ml w/nic salts, I can say that the nicotine has a noticeably stronger effect on me, although there's less throat and lung hit than my regular DIY with 36mg/ml USP Nicotine. I can't tell if it's due to better bioavailability of Nic Salts or that it's just that 50mg/ml is a LOT of nicotine. I'm not getting any nicotine buzz kind of feeling. It's more like I feel a bit winded after a couple of draws. I guess at this point I don't have a strong opinion on Salts vs USP either way. Everything I've ever read says that as nicotine is oxidized by UV light, it and/or it's carrier will darken/amber over time. I have several liters of 100mg/ml USP in the fridge in opaque containers. It's still water clear after two years. My liquids (excluding coffee flavors) are normally very light when mixed, but amber substantially over a few weeks. The peach salts bottle is ambering a bit as well. So in conclusion, I haven't really come to any real conclusions. If or when I ever run out of USP, I might consider using nic salts instead, but I can't think of any real reason to.
    Charles
     
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  18. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    What sort of a setup are you vaping your 50mg/mL e-liquid in? What type of atty, number of coils, coil resistance, and devise power setting? Keep in mind; the Juul pod design (using the 50-60mg/mL liquids) were formatted for single coil, high resistance, low wattage/temperature, vaping.

    Based on Juuls website literature (FAQ page):
    --A Juuls pod contains 0.70mL of liquid.
    --one pod ≈ 1 pack of cigarettes
    --Juuls on-line ordering restricts max pod purchases to 15 packs (4 pods to a pack), or 60 pods a month. Therefore one can deduce that maximum consumption Juul expects/condones is to be 2 pods/1.4mL liquid per day.

    So, if you are using a more commonly found setup used today; with low sub-ohm multi-coil builds, on high power high-temp producing devices, that consume much higher volumes of liquid (5mL, 10mL, 15mL, ???) per day; and trying to use a Juul-comprarible strength... I would think it being similar to a beer drinker, filling his beer mug with 80 proof whiskey, and trying to drink it the same manner he drinks beer... "it ain't gonna be pretty!"


    As for the "breathless" feeling you are getting; it sounds exactly the same as the feeling I got/still get when I tripled my regular (freebase) nicotine (went for 6 to 18mg/mL), for the express purpose to reduce my e-liquid consumption.

    When I was vaping 6mg/mL, I constantly had my rig at my mouth, and was forever chain vaping. After bumping to 18mg/mL, I could only get 3 or 4 puffs, and I got/still get that almost "breathless" feeling. I interpret it as my body saying "Hey; I've had enough for now!" My desire to keep vaping is gone for the moment, I don't vape for a while, and the feeling passes as fast as it came on.

    Not exactly correct. UV (like heat) accelerates oxidation. Oxidation can take place in the absence of UV (think of sunken ships rusting well below the reach of natural sunlight). This is why amber bottles, dark freezers, and all the other things we do to protect our nic concentrate stashes, will greatly slow the aging process, but not stop it entirely.

    However (as I understand it), you are correct that nicotine salts are more stable, and less susceptible to oxidation than freebase nicotine is.
     
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  19. crammit442

    crammit442 Senior Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 7, 2011
    Alabama
    I currently have the 50mg/ml nic salt DIY in a Kayfun Lite at about 0.8 ohms on a Super T ELA mech. I also used it in an eVic VTC at around 20 watts. I also set it up to squonk w/a SS430 TC single spaced coil in a Speed Revolution clone. Nice smooth vape. I think it's just a bit more nicotine than my normal 36mg USP nicotine. I think at my normal 36mg dose (with salts) , I'd likely be missing the throat and lung hit that USP nicotine gives. At most I use a loose MTL, but normally I prefer a fairly restricted draw. I almost always build single coil, low power flavor oriented tanks/drippers. You are correct that to some degree, everything oxidizes in varying ways dependent on environment.
    Charles
     
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  20. IDJoel

    IDJoel Ultra Member Verified Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 20, 2015
    Boise, ID
    I would think so. Though those are pretty "tame" setups by today's standards, but those are still hefty compared to a Juul. A Juul is coiled at 1.6-1.8Ω and low temp controlled. I would guess that you are getting a significant amount of nic.:D
     
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