DIY Mixing failure

[DIYNoob]

Hello group,
I'm new to DIY, but not to vaping. I have been vaping for going on 4 years now. I tried making my first e-juice using an Orange flavour. I used it at 6%. It came out pretty good, and tasted similar to an Orange Tic Tac. However, it wasn't tarty enough for me, so i decided to add "Sour Wizard", at 2%. Now my juice tastes like neither orange, nor is it tart/sour. What am doing wrong?

 

[madstabber]

Too much sour is a perfect way to mute your juice. I haven’t found much use for it when making my juices. It’s similar to Ethyl Maltol with its muting properties but EM does work to smooth and sweeten juice as long as you don’t use too much. I haven’t found any redeeming qualities with sour as too much mutes and less does nothing. There’s plenty of variables involved when mixing a juice so it’s best not to add more to the mix. That’s my view anyway I believe in the old adage keep it simple stupid or K.i.S.S. If you do want to continue to try using it keep it in the less than 1%. Maybe you will find a recipe that sour really shines and if so please share your findings with the rest of us diy’ers. Good luck with however you decide to do.

 

[charlie1465]

Welcome to the friendly bunch

TBH...the fruits are a hard nut to crack and often that tartness in the fruit is sadly lacking in a particular flavour. I agree completely with @madstabber that the sours and some other additives are problematic in that they do indeed mute.

To be fair it seems that the citrusy tang thing is a bit illusive in DIY. The flavourings are much better in producing that flavour often found in sweets/candy's which approximates rather than 'nails it'.

@Letitia is an accomplished mixer and a bit of a specialist in citrus fruits so maybe she can help? Hopefully she'll see this and come on over

 

[HigherStateD]

Which orange have you used? And what VG/PG ratio? Perhaps layering another sour flavor underneath, like a one or lemon, with a second orange or maybe a small amount of a peach or mango to balance?

Sent from my XT1765 using Tapatalk
ETA: I found "rainbow drops," by TFA/TPA to be sour. I've been told it's mostly lime. The other option would be terpenes. They are on the pricy side, but get stingingly sour.

 

[Letitia]

Hello group,
I'm new to DIY, but not to vaping. I have been vaping for going on 4 years now. I tried making my first e-juice using an Orange flavour. I used it at 6%. It came out pretty good, and tasted similar to an Orange Tic Tac. However, it wasn't tarty enough for me, so i decided to add "Sour Wizard", at 2%. Now my juice tastes like neither orange, nor is it tart/sour. What am doing wrong?

First off it takes more than one orange to make a whole. Second we will always ask for flavor brand and title, without these we simply can't be of much use. Tart is doable but actual sour is challenging. Tell us what you're using and it helps to know the base ratios as well. Do you have a flavor stash listed anywhere we can look at?

 

[BrotherBob]

Hello group,
I'm new to DIY, but not to vaping. I have been vaping for going on 4 years now. I tried making my first e-juice using an Orange flavour. I used it at 6%. It came out pretty good, and tasted similar to an Orange Tic Tac. However, it wasn't tarty enough for me, so i decided to add "Sour Wizard", at 2%. Now my juice tastes like neither orange, nor is it tart/sour. What am doing wrong?

Welcome and glad you joined.
Sounds like you are doing nothing wrong other than expecting way too much out of DIY'g after two mixes. Suggest you study the stickies and ask for additional help in:
DIY E-Liquid
Here's a shake and vape (SnV) that may give you some ideas:
Red is the new Orange

 

[DIYNoob]

Which orange have you used? And what VG/PG ratio? Perhaps layering another sour flavor underneath, like a one or lemon, with a second orange or maybe a small amount of a peach or mango to balance?

Sent from my XT1765 using Tapatalk
ETA: I found "rainbow drops," by TFA/TPA to be sour. I've been told it's mostly lime. The other option would be terpenes. They are on the pricy side, but get stingingly sour.

Ok..so as far as i understand, simply adding "Sour Wizard" will mute, but not make my orange sour/tangy. I believe my orange is by Capella. I don't think i have Lemon or Lime in the stuff i ordered. I will look into these terpenes, which i don't know what they are..thanks. They don't mute right?

 

[DIYNoob]

First off it takes more than one orange to make a whole. Second we will always ask for flavor brand and title, without these we simply can't be of much use. Tart is doable but actual sour is challenging. Tell us what you're using and it helps to know the base ratios as well. Do you have a flavor stash listed anywhere we can look at?

Hello. When you say "more than one orange" you mean more than one brand of orange flavour? I used "Juicy Orange" by Capella, i believe. I used it at 6%. The rest is quantity sufficient to make it 70/30 VG/PG. 3% Nicotine.

 

[DIYNoob]

Welcome and glad you joined.
Sounds like you are doing nothing wrong other than expecting way too much out of DIY'g after two mixes. Suggest you study the stickies and ask for additional help in:
DIY E-Liquid
Here's a shake and vape (SnV) that may give you some ideas:
Red is the new Orange

Thank you. Not what i expected, as the % in this formula are very low, compared to what i used. Interesting. Also, why does it say you can't duplicate this formula and sell it, who will know i stole it? I can just claim it was a coincidence. That's why Coke keeps its formulas in a very safe place, right?

 

[HigherStateD]

Thank you. Not what i expected, as the % in this formula are very low, compared to what i used. Interesting. Also, why does it say you can't duplicate this formula and sell it, who will know i stole it? I can just claim it was a coincidence. That's why Coke keeps its formulas in a very safe place, right?

Hello. When you say "more than one orange" you mean more than one brand of orange flavour? I used "Juicy Orange" by Capella, i believe. I used it at 6%. The rest is quantity sufficient to make it 70/30 VG/PG. 3% Nicotine.

Ok..so as far as i understand, simply adding "Sour Wizard" will mute, but not make my orange sour/tangy. I believe my orange is by Capella. I don't think i have Lemon or Lime in the stuff i ordered. I will look into these terpenes, which i don't know what they are..thanks. They don't mute right?

The %s are low because of top-middle-bottom notes principle. One main flavor, one or two secondary flavors to support, and round it out, and finally, subtle background flavors to mask the unwanted characteristics, as well as give that "certain something.". Also, too much of a flavor gives unwanted flavor. Too much butter and you've got vomit.

As for multiple oranges... Try multiple orange flavors from even the same house. iniwera makes three peaches and three strawberry I can think of, off the top of my head. Referring to what I wrote above, to much of any one flavor can drastically change the effect. To achieve an orange, that isn't orange cream, or orange clove, or orange ginger, or orange mango guava, you been more than one orange. Maybe three or four.

Sent from my XT1765 using Tapatalk
ETA; and as for selling that recipe to your friend is one thing. Start a business and they'd own your business, and house, and car...

 

[madstabber]

Thank you. Not what i expected, as the % in this formula are very low, compared to what i used. Interesting. Also, why does it say you can't duplicate this formula and sell it, who will know i stole it? I can just claim it was a coincidence. That's why Coke keeps its formulas in a very safe place, right?

As far as % of flavoring used in a given recipe, for me right around 10% flavoring is what works for me. Some are a little less; some a little more, but the 10% average is a good place to start. I generally keep sweetener and other additives below 1% but I don’t like real sweet juice. Also making small single flavor testers works well to give you an idea of the flavor and then you can combine some of these testers together to see how they work together. In no time you’ll have some great recipes.

 

[BrotherBob]

Thank you. Not what i expected, as the % in this formula are very low, compared to what i used. Interesting. Also, why does it say you can't duplicate this formula and sell it, who will know i stole it? I can just claim it was a coincidence. That's why Coke keeps its formulas in a very safe place, right?

I suspect that percentages in a free published mix are always an approximate starting point for the mixer. Heat applied in watts, type of equipment/settings, vapers taste sensitivity and manufacturer's flavors used are just a few of the percentage considerations that should/may be adjusted/customize to the mixer. For myself, it's easier to adjust upwards if I want to increase sweetness or sour/tartness than adjust downwards. When I started mixing, I found that quite a number of my recipes improved after I cut the flavoring downwards 20% or more, while sometimes leaving the base ( orange in your example) alone.
You might like to read comments regarding too much flavor from the old ECF members:
Use Less FLAVOR in your juice and get more FLAVOR in your vape!!
Anyone who dup's a formula (not tweaking it in anyway) and attempts to sell it, IMHO, deserves to be arrested for stealing. Seriously, if a recipe is published, I suspect the recipe is free.

 

[Letitia]

Thank you. Not what i expected, as the % in this formula are very low, compared to what i used. Interesting. Also, why does it say you can't duplicate this formula and sell it, who will know i stole it? I can just claim it was a coincidence. That's why Coke keeps its formulas in a very safe place, right?

In the diy world it is fine to clone recipes but anytime you duplicate a recipe by another mixer it is customary to credit the creator. Just good manners and entirely appropriate.

 

[Letitia]

When working with orange as the primary flavor these are my must haves:
FW bloody orange natural, this provides the depth and a touch of zest like notes, not a juice orange.

FA blood orange, more juicy and fleshy, slight tangerine notes.

CAP sweet tangerine or FW tangerine natural

INW cactus, adds juiciness at low percentage to any fruit without affecting the desired flavor, use 0.5% or lower

TFA dragon fruit, low percentage for juiciness or pairs beautifully with citrus flavors, I keep it 2% or lower but can use as high as 4%.

Any mango or peach will give the orange a pop at 0.3%, I use either INW mango tango, FA white peach, or FA apricot but pretty much any mango or peach will do.

I seldom use sweetener but will occasionally add Purilum meringue 1% for mouthfeel and a touch of sweetness. From notes I've read FA meringue or FA marshmallow are as good.

 

[Jazzman]

@DIYNoob , all the above are great suggestions and worth trying. I approach it a bit different when testing modifying agents like sour wizard, EM, or whatever. Make up a fresh 10ml of the recipe you started with and add just 1 drop of sour, then test in an RDA just to see the difference. If better but not enough, add another drop (in the same mix) and test again. Keep going until the flavor becomes nasty or muted. This should give you a clear understanding of how that modifier works (and whether it's worth using or destined for the sink).

By testing this way you will be able to identify the flavor changing characteristics of a modifier and give you a general sense of how much is too little or too much for any future juice. It's also a good way to see if it's something you never want to use again. At least you gave it a fair chance and understand the ingredient a lot better, which is always worthwhile, while only wasting 10ml of juice.

I used to add an arbitrary amount with poor results, like 4%. And when it turned out really bad, try again with 2%. That wasted a lot of juice and didn't really teach me much. But starting with a drop and working up really gave me a clear idea of the profile changing properties of an enhancer.

Don't give up on an idea until you have really educated yourself on the ingredients in your mix. If I had given up that easily, I wouldn't have any juice to vape! And even if you decide you don't like that particular enhancer... that knowledge will be valuable for all your mixing in the future.

 

[madstabber]

@Letitia i was thinking about cold pressed lime tahity for adding tartness. I have some but haven’t used it yet and I believe you said you use it in your citrus mixes. Just wondering what it works good with and for and at what %? I know that’s a lot to ask but if you can just give me an idea of where it works best. Thanks unless I misremembered and you have no experience in which case, sorry for bothering you.

 

[DIYNoob]

The %s are low because of top-middle-bottom notes principle. One main flavor, one or two secondary flavors to support, and round it out, and finally, subtle background flavors to mask the unwanted characteristics, as well as give that "certain something.". Also, too much of a flavor gives unwanted flavor. Too much butter and you've got vomit.

As for multiple oranges... Try multiple orange flavors from even the same house. iniwera makes three peaches and three strawberry I can think of, off the top of my head. Referring to what I wrote above, to much of any one flavor can drastically change the effect. To achieve an orange, that isn't orange cream, or orange clove, or orange ginger, or orange mango guava, you been more than one orange. Maybe three or four.

Sent from my XT1765 using Tapatalk
ETA; and as for selling that recipe to your friend is one thing. Start a business and they'd own your business, and house, and car...

The answers seem to parallel what you're saying, it's a bit unusual for me, to consider using a different fruit to enhance one fruit? What do you do if you want to make THAT fruit? Kinda hard to get my mind around it. Orange Ginger sounds EXACTLY like something i would want, something very sour, but orangy. Is there a Ginger flavour out there?

 

[DIYNoob]

When working with orange as the primary flavor these are my must haves:
FW bloody orange natural, this provides the depth and a touch of zest like notes, not a juice orange.

FA blood orange, more juicy and fleshy, slight tangerine notes.

CAP sweet tangerine or FW tangerine natural

INW cactus, adds juiciness at low percentage to any fruit without affecting the desired flavor, use 0.5% or lower

TFA dragon fruit, low percentage for juiciness or pairs beautifully with citrus flavors, I keep it 2% or lower but can use as high as 4%.

Any mango or peach will give the orange a pop at 0.3%, I use either INW mango tango, FA white peach, or FA apricot but pretty much any mango or peach will do.

I seldom use sweetener but will occasionally add Purilum meringue 1% for mouthfeel and a touch of sweetness. From notes I've read FA meringue or FA marshmallow are as good.

Letitia you're a world of knowledge and i like your writing style, it's very clear and concise. This is all new and unusual to me, adding a different fruit to enhance another one. Say i would want to make a Dragon Fruit flavoured juice, what would i add to it to enhance its flavour then? Sorry for asking so much but i really am a NOOB and trying to get a general idea.

 

[DIYNoob]

@DIYNoob , all the above are great suggestions and worth trying. I approach it a bit different when testing modifying agents like sour wizard, EM, or whatever. Make up a fresh 10ml of the recipe you started with and add just 1 drop of sour, then test in an RDA just to see the difference. If better but not enough, add another drop (in the same mix) and test again. Keep going until the flavor becomes nasty or muted. This should give you a clear understanding of how that modifier works (and whether it's worth using or destined for the sink).

By testing this way you will be able to identify the flavor changing characteristics of a modifier and give you a general sense of how much is too little or too much for any future juice. It's also a good way to see if it's something you never want to use again. At least you gave it a fair chance and understand the ingredient a lot better, which is always worthwhile, while only wasting 10ml of juice.

I used to add an arbitrary amount with poor results, like 4%. And when it turned out really bad, try again with 2%. That wasted a lot of juice and didn't really teach me much. But starting with a drop and working up really gave me a clear idea of the profile changing properties of an enhancer.

Don't give up on an idea until you have really educated yourself on the ingredients in your mix. If I had given up that easily, I wouldn't have any juice to vape! And even if you decide you don't like that particular enhancer... that knowledge will be valuable for all your mixing in the future.

@DIYNoob , all the above are great suggestions and worth trying. I approach it a bit different when testing modifying agents like sour wizard, EM, or whatever. Make up a fresh 10ml of the recipe you started with and add just 1 drop of sour, then test in an RDA just to see the difference. If better but not enough, add another drop (in the same mix) and test again. Keep going until the flavor becomes nasty or muted. This should give you a clear understanding of how that modifier works (and whether it's worth using or destined for the sink).

By testing this way you will be able to identify the flavor changing characteristics of a modifier and give you a general sense of how much is too little or too much for any future juice. It's also a good way to see if it's something you never want to use again. At least you gave it a fair chance and understand the ingredient a lot better, which is always worthwhile, while only wasting 10ml of juice.

I used to add an arbitrary amount with poor results, like 4%. And when it turned out really bad, try again with 2%. That wasted a lot of juice and didn't really teach me much. But starting with a drop and working up really gave me a clear idea of the profile changing properties of an enhancer.

Don't give up on an idea until you have really educated yourself on the ingredients in your mix. If I had given up that easily, I wouldn't have any juice to vape! And even if you decide you don't like that particular enhancer... that knowledge will be valuable for all your mixing in the future.

Sounds complex. And the others kinda turned me off to the Sour thing. I also never had and RDA. Is that a prereq. for DIY?

 

[DIYNoob]

@Letitia i was thinking about cold pressed lime tahity for adding tartness. I have some but haven’t used it yet and I believe you said you use it in your citrus mixes. Just wondering what it works good with and for and at what %? I know that’s a lot to ask but if you can just give me an idea of where it works best. Thanks unless I misremembered and you have no experience in which case, sorry for bothering you.

So i guess adding a sour fruit like Lemon or Lime to my Orange will make it more sour, without muting?