Don't forget about Watts Law

[fenderstrat]

sorry for the off topic.the heli remark wasnt meant at anyone.I love my 500 size it gets the most flying time
I mean no disrespecr to anyone but my comment just meant that we have a 7 page thread about watts on a 1 or 2 cell system.....again no disrespect meant but if we were dealing with a 12 cell series set up,this thread might never end

 

[Dlmdavid]

Watts is the measurement of power dissipated as heat, nothing more, there are different power measurements such as VARs or Volt Amps but when dealing with watts it is strictly heat, 50 watts is 50 watts no matter the resistance. The difference is when you have more surface area it takes more wattage to heat the area than it would on a smaller coil.

 

[WattWick]

@fenderstrat No offense taken at all! Was just clowning around.

 

[skoony]

It indicates that one calorie of heat is generated by 4.184 joules of electrical power. So 4.184 watts of power will generate one calorie of heat per second. And it does not matter what the resistance of the wire is, or the gauge, or the voltage, or the current or the surface area. The amount of heat is purely dictated by the power level in watts (or total power over time measured in joules)

In order to generate 4.184 Watts of actual radiated heat you would need more than 4.184 joules of
actual power available to account for the power needed to keep the current in motion and other losses.
I think that because we are using coils that are so close together physically the apparent difference
is unnoticable for the most part. A higher resistance requires more voltage to maintain 50 Watts
of power consumption with less amperage to create the heat to make vapor. The inverse is true.
A smaller resistance requires less voltage to maintain 50 Watts consumption but at a higher amperage.If the wire gauge is the same this means more power per less surface area of the coil providing more available heat which generates vapor faster over the same period of time.
By using different gauge coils and builds this can be mitigated almost to the point of appearing
to get the same results. We only have to heat the juice hot enough to get the residual water content
to reach the transitional stages from liquid to gas in order to atomize the base into an aerosol.
This will happen between 184 degrees and 212 degrees F no mater how hot the coil gets. By using smaller gauge wire for low ohm builds and using higher gauge wire for larger ohm builds one can
get results so similar as to be for all intents and purposes to be the same.

Watts is the measurement of power dissipated as heat, nothing more, there are different power

Watts is the measurement of power dissipated as heat, nothing more, there are different power measurements such as VARs or Volt Amps but when dealing with watts it is strictly heat, 50 watts is 50 watts no matter the resistance. The difference is when you have more surface area it takes more wattage to heat the area than it would on a smaller coil.

Watts is a measurement of power needed for the circuit to do the work required of it.

Regards
Mike

 

[sonicbomb]

@skoony I think you are over complicating this. The resistance of the coil does not matter, only the mass. The amount of volts or amps that the chip delivers to the coil is arbitrary, only the watts are relevant.

 

[WattWick]

Yes it does but the heating element itself acts like a heat sink. - AKA ramp up time to most people here.

This is basic Ohm's Law and what some call Watts Law here. A watt is one joule of energy for one second. Your 100 watt heating element is generating 100 joules of energy per second starting with the first second. That 100 joules of energy dissipated in the first second is just as "potent" as the 100 joules radiated on the 60th second.

Consider the use of heat sinks in electrical circuits. The coil or heating element itself is a rather modest heat sink. I'm not sure the electrical heat sink is a good analogy because it is doing other things too, after it reaches thermal equilibrium. But if you put a huge heat sink on a heated coil it will take much longer to reach thermal equilibrium, as well as allow the coil to dissipate more power than it otherwise could without melting down.

I really wanted to leave out ramp up just so we could focus on the basic concept that watts = heat in a vaping coil application... but it might help clarify things for some.

I urge you to go back and re-read the post you first quoted from me.

We are not working with theoretical physics where a heating element gets to have zero mass. During the ramp-up time, heat output is lower than after it reaches maximum temperature. Applying 100 watt worth of electrical energy to a (cold) heating element does not instantly cause the element to have an effect of 100 watt worth of heat energy on something else.

In simple terms: Cold element is cold. Hot element is hot.

 

[VNeil]

In order to generate 4.184 Watts of actual radiated heat you would need more than 4.184 joules of
actual power available to account for the power needed to keep the current in motion and other losses.
I think that because we are using coils that are so close together physically the apparent difference
is unnoticable for the most part. A higher resistance requires more voltage to maintain 50 Watts
of power consumption with less amperage to create the heat to make vapor. The inverse is true.
A smaller resistance requires less voltage to maintain 50 Watts consumption but at a higher amperage.If the wire gauge is the same this means more power per less surface area of the coil providing more available heat which generates vapor faster over the same period of time.
By using different gauge coils and builds this can be mitigated almost to the point of appearing
to get the same results. We only have to heat the juice hot enough to get the residual water content
to reach the transitional stages from liquid to gas in order to atomize the base into an aerosol.
This will happen between 184 degrees and 212 degrees F no mater how hot the coil gets. By using smaller gauge wire for low ohm builds and using higher gauge wire for larger ohm builds one can
get results so similar as to be for all intents and purposes to be the same.



Watts is a measurement of power needed for the circuit to do the work required of it.

Regards
Mike

I've given you a credible link indicating watts is watts, and watts = heat. If you can provide a link backing up your assertion that this is not so, I am all ears. Otherwise I'm out of the discussion.

 

[VNeil]

I urge you to go back and re-read the post you first quoted from me.

We are not working with theoretical physics where a heating element gets to have zero mass. During the ramp-up time, heat output is lower than after it reaches maximum temperature. Applying 100 watt worth of electrical energy to a (cold) heating element does not instantly cause the element to have an effect of 100 watt worth of heat energy on something else.

In simple terms: Cold element is cold. Hot element is hot.

Where we seem to be at odds is that you are talking about the heat radiating from the coil. And in that sense you are right that the perception of an outside observer of the coil is that it is not heating up initially. But it is heating up internally, if you will, which is what I'm talking about. The same calories of heat per second are applied to the coil (or dissipated by the coil), starting with the first second, even though it might not be obvious.

And this is why it was not my idea to talk about the ramp up.... sigh. It is just over-complicating the simple basic principle that seems so difficult to get across (not to you, but perhaps others).

 

[skoony]

@sonicbomb You're right of course.

I've given you a credible link indicating watts is watts, and watts = heat. If you can provide a link backing up your assertion that this is not so, I am all ears. Otherwise I'm out of the discussion.

If you are talking about actual radiated heat in units of wattage or actual work
done in units of wattage.
Wattage
1.
power, as measured in watts.
2.
the amount of power required to operate an electrical appliance ordevice.
the definition of wattage

The watt (symbol: W) is a derived unit of power in the International System of Units (SI), named after the Scottish engineer James Watt (1736–1819). The unit is defined as joule per second[1] and can be used to express the rate of energy conversion or transfer with respect to time. It has dimensions of L2MT−3.
Watt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
regards
Mike

 

[VNeil]

@sonicbomb You're right of course.

If you are talking about actual radiated heat in units of wattage or actual work
done in units of wattage.
Wattage
1.
power, as measured in watts.
2.
the amount of power required to operate an electrical appliance ordevice.
the definition of wattage

The watt (symbol: W) is a derived unit of power in the International System of Units (SI), named after the Scottish engineer James Watt (1736–1819). The unit is defined as joule per second[1] and can be used to express the rate of energy conversion or transfer with respect to time. It has dimensions of L2MT−3.
Watt - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
regards
Mike

Nothing you quoted is contrary to what I've been saying all along... a watt is a watt, and represents a unit of energy, and nothing there suggests the amount of current making up that watt changes anything.

And it should be obvious from my discussion with Wattwick that I have very carefully used the term "dissipation", not "radiation". There is a difference, at least in the early stages of heating a coil.

 

[Dlmdavid]

Watts is a measurement of power needed for the circuit to do the work required of it.

Regards
Mike

That is joules. Watts is the unit of measurement for true power, it is called true power because it is entirely dissipated as heat and thus the only power in a circuit that is actually used up and not just stored.

 

[skoony]

Nothing you quoted is contrary to what I've been saying all along... a watt is a watt, and represents a unit of energy, and nothing there suggests the amount of current making up that watt changes anything.

And it should be obvious from my discussion with Wattwick that I have very carefully used the term "dissipation", not "radiation". There is a difference, at least in the early stages of heating a coil.

I agree with you as far as ramp up goes. No problem there.
Regards
Mike

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Pssssst.............Some of us are old enough that it was not a required class.

I am not sure they had invented physics back then...
At least not in my HS.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Watts is the measurement of power dissipated as heat, nothing more, there are different power measurements such as VARs or Volt Amps but when dealing with watts it is strictly heat, 50 watts is 50 watts no matter the resistance. The difference is when you have more surface area it takes more wattage to heat the area than it would on a smaller coil.

Then why are gasoline outboard motors rated in Kilowatts?
Watts is convertable to HP.
One mechanic or hydraulic horsepower is equal to 745.699872 watts:
1 hp(I) = 745.699872 W

One electrical horsepower is equal to 746 watts:
1 hp(E) = 746 W

One metric horsepower is equal to 735.49875 watts:
1 hp(M) = 735.49875 W

 

[Dlmdavid]

Then why are gasoline outboard motors rated in Kilowatts?
Watts is convertable to HP.
One mechanic or hydraulic horsepower is equal to 745.699872 watts:
1 hp(I) = 745.699872 W

One electrical horsepower is equal to 746 watts:
1 hp(E) = 746 W

One metric horsepower is equal to 735.49875 watts:
1 hp(M) = 735.49875 W

That's because the energy dissipated as heat can be converted into mechanical energy to turn a motor, there is no mechanical conversion on a vaping coil though, watts is strictly heat in a basic resistive circuit. Sorry I didn't clarify

 

[Robert Cromwell]

So a DNA 200 cranks out about 1/4 HP?

 

[Dlmdavid]

Here is a direct quote from the Delmars standard textbook of electricity if this clears anything up. "Assume a resistor is connected to a circuit with a voltage of 120 volts and a current flow of 1 ampere. The resistor represents an electric heating element. When 120 volts force a current of 1 ampere through it, the heating element will produce 120 watts of heat (120 V X 1 A = 120 W). If the voltage is increased to 240 volts, but the current remains constant, the element will produce 240 watts of heat. If the voltage remains constant at 120 volts but the current is increased to 2 amperes, the heating element will again produce 240 watts. Notice that the amount of power used by the resistor is determined by the amount of current flow and the voltage diving it." Also going back to the origin of this thread about ohms law being irrelevant in a regulated mod, the textbook says "In its simplest form ohms law states that it takes 1 volt to push 1 amp through 1 ohm." Notice it says nothing about power, which is what is needed to calculate battery drain in a regulated mod, that was my whole reason in making this thread, so people could differentiate between Watts law and Ohms law, nothing more.

 

[Dlmdavid]

So a DNA 200 cranks out about 1/4 HP?

Haha if you can find a way to convert it into mechanical energy than sure, but when you turn a motor you build a magnetic field that created something called counter EMF which is another opposition to current flow, so your batteries will be drawing even more current, could be disastrous haha

 

[Mike 586]

This thread has some of the most hands down, out to lunch explanations for ohm's law and watts I've ever seen.

WATTS
VOLT
AMP
OHM
OHM'S LAW

Guys, if you're going to debate ohm's law, at the very least you ought to understand the 4 variables and ohm's law itself because this thread is like an episode of kids say the darndest things.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Oms Law, Watts law, amps law are all lumped together.

We could figure batteries in watts. Sort of. Would work pretty well for consumers.
At full voltage a 20 amp CDR battery would handle 84 watts. Using ohms/watts law.
But figuring voltage sag with a 20 amp load it would be more like 75.