dues to high

[MrBrown]

That is insane. Sorry all, but I don't care how much money my business makes, there is NO WAY I would spend 5k to join a group that says it is non-profit. Especially if they are asking for a $500.00 application fee.

I can join almost any other non-profit organization for less then $300 a year and am then welcomed to increase my donation. Sure an increased donation would give me a higher sponsor level and maybe a plaque but no one insists on a minimum of $800 up front. Aside from obviously stunting the growth of the organization this type of elitism bars most concerned individuals from participating.

Has any of the "members" (preferably the ones that are not involved with handling the money) asked for a financial breakdown of expenditures and costs? Every licensed non-profit is required to supply upon request a statement of where there money is being spent. This is how United Way got busted for paying its management a million dollars a year.

Anyway, rant aside, I don't know the group but think the membership structure and fees are insane and a formula for failure.

 

[Elendil]

Not sure where you live, but thats definitely on the very low side. I used to own and operate Kiosks all throughout Texas, and my rent was never under $1500/mo, even at the 'ghetto' malls.

I do not claim to be an expert. My daughter is employed at one of the malls I quoted the 400-600/mo rate for. It was a number she got from the mall when a friend wanted to set up a kiosk to sell cell phone accessories.........The mall in our area is not a "ghetto" mall, but not a huge one either. There are about 50 stores with Sears, JCP, Bergners(CSP) and Marshall's being the "anchor" stores, although there is a Wal Mart, Home Depot, and Target immediately adjacent to the mall. I do know being in a relatively rural area that people traveling 50 miles to shop in this area is not unusual.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

That is insane. Sorry all, but I don't care how much money my business makes, there is NO WAY I would spend 5k to join a group that says it is non-profit. Especially if they are asking for a $500.00 application fee.

I can join almost any other non-profit organization for less then $300 a year and am then welcomed to increase my donation. Sure an increased donation would give me a higher sponsor level and maybe a plaque but no one insists on a minimum of $800 up front. Aside from obviously stunting the growth of the organization this type of elitism bars most concerned individuals from participating.

Has any of the "members" (preferably the ones that are not involved with handling the money) asked for a financial breakdown of expenditures and costs? Every licensed non-profit is required to supply upon request a statement of where there money is being spent. This is how United Way got busted for paying its management a million dollars a year.

Anyway, rant aside, I don't know the group but think the membership structure and fees are insane and a formula for failure.

I really think you are unsure of the kind of money is needed to support this effort.... is going to take more then i have ever seen that's for sure..... I am on the BOD and have nothing to do with the money end of it, but yes we know exactly where it is going...and where we need to concentrate future money. Right now we make just enough to pay policy impact basically...and that's with some board members paying even more then the highest level dues...

there is sooooooooooooooo much more we need to do! No other trade organization I can think of is literally fighting for our life like we are!

As I stated below if any size company that can meet with the requirements on the application is someone we want on our team...if money is an issue we will work it out until your businesses are the size that can meet the current min dues.

 

[ccure]

I just want to clarify something:

I think ECA is a good choice to save the e-cigs. I will love to support ECA as a member. I do like the possibility to use the ECA sign in my future website. I like the idea of using it also in all my future advertisements and in the box of the product. I love the idea to be the first ECA member in Colombia and maybe in LA. I will like the idea to promote and open an agency of ECA in Colombia for LA.

But sadlly, I can not afford to pay the application fee and the monthly fee just now.

I am investing a good deal of K trying to get the proper approvals to legaly sell the e-cigs in Colombia and in the Andean Pact, so I can not afford to pay "high fees" jsut now.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

I just want to clarify something:

I think ECA is a good choice to save the e-cigs. I will love to support ECA as a member. I do like the possibility to use the ECA sign in my future website. I like the idea of using it also in all my future advertisements and in the box of the product. I love the idea to be the first ECA member in Colombia and maybe in LA. I will like the idea to promote and open an agency of ECA in Colombia for LA.

But sadlly, I can not afford to pay the application fee and the monthly fee just now.

I am investing a good deal of K trying to get the proper approvals to legaly sell the e-cigs in Colombia and in the Andean Pact, so I can not afford to pay "high fees" jsut now.

Great I already emailed the BOD to contact you ..you should receive something shortly

 

[Kewtsquirrel]

I do not claim to be an expert. My daughter is employed at one of the malls I quoted the 400-600/mo rate for. It was a number she got from the mall when a friend wanted to set up a kiosk to sell cell phone accessories.........The mall in our area is not a "ghetto" mall, but not a huge one either. There are about 50 stores with Sears, JCP, Bergners(CSP) and Marshall's being the "anchor" stores, although there is a Wal Mart, Home Depot, and Target immediately adjacent to the mall. I do know being in a relatively rural area that people traveling 50 miles to shop in this area is not unusual.

As with all real-estate, prices will vary with location, but on average, kiosks aren't as cheap as one might think. To get an idea of upper-end prices, I used to manage a kiosk in the Fashion Show Mall in Vegas, the one right on the strip across the street from the Wynn. Our rent was upwards of $6,000 per month and it went up to over $9,000 for November/December. Thats not including the % of gross sales you're supposed to pay, it's big business.

 

[MrBrown]

I really think you are unsure of the kind of money is needed to support this effort.... is going to take more then i have ever seen that's for sure..... I am on the BOD and have nothing to do with the money end of it, but yes we know exactly where it is going...and where we need to concentrate future money. Right now we make just enough to pay policy impact basically...and that's with some board members paying even more then the highest level dues...

there is sooooooooooooooo much more we need to do! No other trade organization I can think of is literally fighting for our life like we are!

As I stated below if any size company that can meet with the requirements on the application is someone we want on our team...if money is an issue we will work it out until your businesses are the size that can meet the current min dues.

Not saying the group is a bad one, more that the member structure is perhaps not well thought out. And yes I know what lobbying is and how expensive it is, I've worked in DC.

Now that I have gotten over the shock of seeing your price tag for a logo I'll try to be a little more clear. I've often seen a company (yes, lobbying is a business venture) start out thinking that it would be easier to sell one unit for $100 rather then sell 100 units for $1(SE for instance). They just need that one person to click "buy" without comparing suppliers and they are golden. However this seldom works. Even if they put up a email link on their site that says to contact them for a discount most people will not bother as they still wont be willing to buy at $50.

The reasoning behind the high price is sound to a point. They won't have to hire help to process one order, they may have little competition, shipping is lower, storage will be less expensive, they wont need to spend the money on a high volume business. If only they can sell that one unit at a 1,000% price increase.

Unfortunately with this business concept and yours this seldom works. However this is what it seems to me that you are doing with your membership fees. For many of the folks running a small business that $300+ a month is a car payment, or a site overhaul to better serve their customers, or in some cases it is the difference between weather their children go to school in new cloths, or last years castoffs.

From a profit view point it is pretty well common knowledge that the lower price point not does not sell only 100 times as many units, but more likely a 1000 times as many. So really the way to bring in more money for the cause is to allow everyone the ability to join and send what they can, not just the elite who have nothing better to throw disposable income at. Most of the businesses selling the products concerned do not have disposable income at all.

Sure you can sell board seats and votes at a higher price or monthly commitment, most non profits do to one extent or another. However if you had a much lower (say $100 yearly) membership for the user and small business I'd bet you made vastly more money to support this cause. I'd even bet that the smaller businesses would be willing to give a discount to members at that rate to make it more appealing.

In the end, if everyone on this site alone sent you $10 a month, I'd bet that you would make more then you ever will with your elite level price scheme. I know it would mean more paper work, but then you did commit to run the organization right? Beyond that the numbers of active members are just as important in a lobbying effort as the amount of money you can throw around. Your members are also voters and a roll call of more than 10k members can make the difference for even getting in the door to talk to a politician.

Does my concern make sense now or am I just pointlessly ranting?

 

[majormom72]

If your boss can afford a Kiosk in a mall which is anywhere form 2000-4000$ a month i dont see how 300$ a month is steep!. These Fee are to help ECA as a whole push and stay ahead of issues, questions and progress the future of our business's in a positive and safe manner. Heck i am sure you get paid more then 300$ a month to sit at a Kiosk hoping to sell a ecig kit for 120$ +, talk about Steep...

Lets ask that same business owner what he pays for his yellow pages add or for electricity, shipping, workmans comp ins, employee benefits or the many other monthly expenses involved with being a business or franchise owner.

$300 a month for a newsletter and icon on your website is extremely steep, especially when you are facing the possibility of being shut down completely...I get the newsletters from ECA for free, and have yet to see any real action or information that I have not taken myself as a consumer and/or concerned citizen... I think each of us is better off representing ourselves in our own way and its pretty easy to stay on top of issues without being involved with the ECA.

If people have strong beliefs and feelings about important issues, they will stand up for them regardless of whether or not they are a paying "member" or "founder" of some organization that supports the cause.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

Not saying the group is a bad one, more that the member structure is perhaps not well thought out. And yes I know what lobbying is and how expensive it is, I've worked in DC.

Now that I have gotten over the shock of seeing your price tag for a logo I'll try to be a little more clear. I've often seen a company (yes, lobbying is a business venture) start out thinking that it would be easier to sell one unit for $100 rather then sell 100 units for $1(SE for instance). They just need that one person to click "buy" without comparing suppliers and they are golden. However this seldom works. Even if they put up a email link on their site that says to contact them for a discount most people will not bother as they still wont be willing to buy at $50.

The reasoning behind the high price is sound to a point. They won't have to hire help to process one order, they may have little competition, shipping is lower, storage will be less expensive, they wont need to spend the money on a high volume business. If only they can sell that one unit at a 1,000% price increase.

Unfortunately with this business concept and yours this seldom works. However this is what it seems to me that you are doing with your membership fees. For many of the folks running a small business that $300+ a month is a car payment, or a site overhaul to better serve their customers, or in some cases it is the difference between weather their children go to school in new cloths, or last years castoffs.

From a profit view point it is pretty well common knowledge that the lower price point not does not sell only 100 times as many units, but more likely a 1000 times as many. So really the way to bring in more money for the cause is to allow everyone the ability to join and send what they can, not just the elite who have nothing better to throw disposable income at. Most of the businesses selling the products concerned do not have disposable income at all.

Sure you can sell board seats and votes at a higher price or monthly commitment, most non profits do to one extent or another. However if you had a much lower (say $100 yearly) membership for the user and small business I'd bet you made vastly more money to support this cause. I'd even bet that the smaller businesses would be willing to give a discount to members at that rate to make it more appealing.

In the end, if everyone on this site alone sent you $10 a month, I'd bet that you would make more then you ever will with your elite level price scheme. I know it would mean more paper work, but then you did commit to run the organization right? Beyond that the numbers of active members are just as important in a lobbying effort as the amount of money you can throw around. Your members are also voters and a roll call of more than 10k members can make the difference for even getting in the door to talk to a politician.

Does my concern make sense now or am I just pointlessly ranting?

I just want to clarify a few things. 1) membership is only for suppliers, consumers are although encouraged to donate any amount they can to show their support as little as $5. 2) if a supplier could not afford your example of $50 a month (about the price of one kit) to help save their business ....that just seems silly to me...

I understand your theory but as we have stated numerous times that small business will be welcomed and worked with.... I don't know what else there is to say. There is also banners that one can add to the their site to show support and link to the ECA and they are free.

 

[Two-A-T]

1) membership is only for suppliers, consumers are although encouraged to donate any amount they can to show their support as little as $5.

This is a poor way to get support. Does the NRA (National Rifle Association) only offer "membership" to gun makers? NO. They want EVERYONE involved and they offer different levels of membership for manufacturers, suppliers AND the end consumer who is the most important link in the chain! Without the support of the CONSUMER, you have no product anyway! The ECA should be modeling their organization and membership options after organizations like the NRA! The NRA only charges $35 a YEAR for consumer memberships!!

2) if a supplier could not afford your example of $50 a month (about the price of one kit) to help save their business ....that just seems silly to me...

You obviously have not been watching the news lately. The economy is down, retail sales are down and people have LESS money. SO, what you think is "silly", the business owner, who could very likely be struggling to survive in this economy, might see as a few days of groceries for their family after all of their expenses are paid! BIG name companies are shutting down every day because the economy is breaking them.. you think ecig suppliers are immune and rolling in $$$?? You need to be more realistic!!

Plain and simple... the ECA's membership fees are only targeting the "elite" and totally ignoring the smaller suppliers and the end consumers who are the backbone of the industry!!

By the way...

Let's say you only charged $10/month for consumer memberships (which is still high compared to similar organizations).. and if you only got 50% of the 11,833 members on this site alone (and we all know there are MANY more ecig users than just HERE), you would be generating an additional $59,165/mo in membership fees without breaking the consumer's wallets!! Or, do you not need this income because your "elite" supplier members already pay so much?????

 

[lordmage]

then maybe the ECA also needs to have a model that has consumer members to give the group more lobbying power if not then i think i will just stop vaping all together

 

[nycsublimegirl]

Consumer memberships are a good idea, and it is something I would personally like to see it go that way in the future. As of right now the ECA has decided with being a brand new organization that our recourses need to be streamlined and it would not be wise to take on that aspect right now. That being said there really is not much difference between donating to the ECA and signing up for the newsletter and a NRA consumer membership. I actually used them to present an example to the board on how other organizations work with consumer members.... you basically give money and based on your member level get certain gifts "hats, t shirts etc" and discounts on things like insurance. So with an ECA donation no you don't get a hat, but you might get to keep vaping...and I am sure you can ask any NRA member if the hat is the reason for giving money....
[FONT="]
As far as $50 a month example and me saying its silly ...its not me trying to be "elite" or condescending..although it may have come off that way... what I meant is the argument is irrational....

If you could not afford 1 kit's profits to potentially save that same business that is putting food on your table it does not make sense. The way we see it if we do not fight and give $$ to that fight as suppliers then we will have no industry to do business in period... It’s like saying well I need every dollar of my profits so I can't help...but by not helping you will no longer have any profits...let alone a business...

As to the logic of the dues and how we arrived at those figures, some members of the board as I have mentioned have pledged way over the highest amount of dues to help in this fight, but also much smaller members who are suppliers as a second job also had input on the due amount..and they felt it was fair.

That being said you also have no idea what kind of arrangements on dues we are giving to the smaller suppliers that have come to us to work something out...so until they do they cannot really criticize that they are being unfairly "sized" out of association... cause I can tell you that’s just not the case... we want and need as many people as possible as long as they meet with the marketing and other requirements.

Lastly the reason behind the lowest published due of $300 was decided on as a figure... is the ECA does not dictate dues on suppliers (manufacturers are different) so a really big supplier with tons of money can come in and pick the lowest amount just to be a part of it...and that’s not really fair considering market share...so that was taken into consideration as well.... I can personally tell you if a supplier came to me and said listen I sell 10 kits a month that’s it and I do this a second job for extra money but I really want to be a part of the ECA we would 100% find a happy compromise to have them be a part of the ECA...and if you are one fo those suppliers reading this right now please PM me.
[/FONT]

 

[Two-A-T]

I still disagree with you. But I will hold further comment for now....

 

[nycsublimegirl]

Just to clarify, I do want to see consumer members in the future and it will be discussed in the next meeting of the BOD.

 

[eplanet]

Why are consumers concerned with the supplier fee's?
The cost of defending the e-cig is HUGE!!! our main opponents: phillip morris and the Government.....
Donation's from consumers are done at their own discretion so of they donat $1, that's cool $10 great any more...awesome...
If there are any other organizations trying to fight the cause donate to them too. What the ECA is doing, is trying to establish a platform for all of us, donate or not. We are taking a stand for all of us. Agree or dis agree, we all have the same goal.

I personally do not have any issues with ECA dues and I do not see why consumer's do.

Peace...

 

[STILLSMOK9]

Why are consumers concerned with the supplier fee's?
The cost of defending the e-cig is HUGE!!! our main opponents: phillip morris and the Government.....
Donation's from consumers are done at their own discretion so of they donat $1, that's cool $10 great any more...awesome...
If there are any other organizations trying to fight the cause donate to them too. What the ECA is doing, is trying to establish a platform for all of us, donate or not. We are taking a stand for all of us. Agree or dis agree, we all have the same goal.

I personally do not have any issues with ECA dues and I do not see why consumer's do.

Peace...

I am not a member of this association, but, I am in the trade show & convention business. I have a great understanding of how associations work and what the ECA is doing is not out of line.

Consider the consequences of not having anything to back the industry up?

 

[eplanet]

I am not a member of this association, but, I am in the trade show & convention business. I have a great understanding of how associations work and what the ECA is doing is not out of line.

Consider the consequences of not having anything to back the industry up?

thank you,
exactly my point. If in the future ecigs are not banned and legal issues dissolve then I am sure the member fee's would be decreased, but at the moment they are required.

 

[Two-A-T]

thank you,
exactly my point. If in the future ecigs are not banned and legal issues dissolve then I am sure the member fee's would be decreased, but at the moment they are required.

Simple economics...

You create more stable and reliable funding through a large group of people paying smaller fees than you do through a small group of people paying larger fees. With larger fees, you lose one individual, it causes more decrease in funding. With smaller fees, it affects you far less to lose several!

Simple politics...

You have a MUCH stronger voice in DC when you have LARGE numbers of regular people than you ever will with SMALL numbers of those who are in it for profit!

And finally...

if the membership roster of the ECA is nothing but suppliers and manufacturers, anything they do will be seen as solely for their own profit. If the roster of the ECA has thousands of regular people, then it is seen more as VOTERS in the political districts of the senators and congressmen that we will have to talk to and FAR more effective than only suppliers! There is strength in numbers.

These are simple principles and facts.

 

[Babachoo]

Firstly, it's nice to see more people debating about the issues surrounding the ECA.


Secondly....

if the membership roster of the ECA is nothing but suppliers and manufacturers, anything they do will be seen as solely for their own profit. If the roster of the ECA has thousands of regular people, then it is seen more as VOTERS in the political districts of the senators and congressmen that we will have to talk to and FAR more effective than only suppliers!

It's too late for them to reorganize into something resembling what the quote entails. Not only because of how they organized and incorporated, but because of all the time they've spent here telling us all the following things about their organization...

1. They are for suppliers, not consumers.

2. They represent the interests of U.S. middlemen suppliers, not consumers who can get the same products directly from China for a lot less money. It's a house of cards industry every consumer who realizes they can get things directly from China for 1/2 or 1/3 of the price that U.S. middlemen are charging, it's a gust of wind threatening to blow that house of cards down.

3. The ECA is CLEARLY representing the above mentioned suppliers because they have stated numerous times that they are a U.S. based organization, not international, and have no interest in representing international suppliers. Maybe this is because the international suppliers are their competition and could easily put most all of the U.S. suppliers out of business if word really spread about how quick and hassle-free shipping via EMS from China to the states is, and people got over that fear of dealing with foreigners or whatever keeps them from searching outside the US for better deals.

I feel like telling everyone here in every one of my posts how I've never had better customer service from anywhere in the world than what I get from Ruyandirect, and how U.S. suppliers suck because they offer rediculous 2 week or 1 month warranties on products that are warrantied for 1 YEAR if you get them from China suppliers. I could go on forever about this, but it's obvious that the ECA represents a group of suppliers that have no chance of surviving, even if there are no bans in the US of ecigs. Eventually all markets give in to price points as long as the service is satisfactory, and both the price points and service from China, at least from RD, are hands-down unbeatable.

It's been said many times that the only orders (only a couple confirmed at this point) that have actually been seized by customs were large orders that were destined for U.S. suppliers. Small personal orders haven't been confiscated at all. If all of the U.S. suppliers went out of business tomorrow, we all would still be able to order plenty of stuff from overseas. And it would be a blessing for many to finally realize that they've been paying a middleman way too much money all this time, and that they should have gone directly to the source (China) a long time ago.

So if you feel like donating funds to bail water out of a sinking boat full of American middlemen, by all means give until you have no more money left for groceries. From what I can tell, the ECA is like a government bailout, to save a doomed industry flooded with middlemen who don't know how to compete in the marketplace, but this bailout isn't funded by tax dollars, it's voluntary and requires a minimum investment that made me literally spit tea all over my keyboard the first time I read the figures. Best of luck with that.

 

[Mac]

Firstly, it's nice to see more people debating about the issues surrounding the ECA.


Secondly....



It's too late for them to reorganize into something resembling what the quote entails. Not only because of how they organized and incorporated, but because of all the time they've spent here telling us all the following things about their organization...

1. They are for suppliers, not consumers.

2. They represent the interests of U.S. middlemen suppliers, not consumers who can get the same products directly from China for a lot less money. It's a house of cards industry every consumer who realizes they can get things directly from China for 1/2 or 1/3 of the price that U.S. middlemen are charging, it's a gust of wind threatening to blow that house of cards down.

3. The ECA is CLEARLY representing the above mentioned suppliers because they have stated numerous times that they are a U.S. based organization, not international, and have no interest in representing international suppliers. Maybe this is because the international suppliers are their competition and could easily put most all of the U.S. suppliers out of business if word really spread about how quick and hassle-free shipping via EMS from China to the states is, and people got over that fear of dealing with foreigners or whatever keeps them from searching outside the US for better deals.

I feel like telling everyone here in every one of my posts how I've never had better customer service from anywhere in the world than what I get from Ruyandirect, and how U.S. suppliers suck because they offer rediculous 2 week or 1 month warranties on products that are warrantied for 1 YEAR if you get them from China suppliers. I could go on forever about this, but it's obvious that the ECA represents a group of suppliers that have no chance of surviving, even if there are no bans in the US of ecigs. Eventually all markets give in to price points as long as the service is satisfactory, and both the price points and service from China, at least from RD, are hands-down unbeatable.

It's been said many times that the only orders (only a couple confirmed at this point) that have actually been seized by customs were large orders that were destined for U.S. suppliers. Small personal orders haven't been confiscated at all. If all of the U.S. suppliers went out of business tomorrow, we all would still be able to order plenty of stuff from overseas. And it would be a blessing for many to finally realize that they've been paying a middleman way too much money all this time, and that they should have gone directly to the source (China) a long time ago.

So if you feel like donating funds to bail water out of a sinking boat full of American middlemen, by all means give until you have no more money left for groceries. From what I can tell, the ECA is like a government bailout, to save a doomed industry flooded with middlemen who don't know how to compete in the marketplace, but this bailout isn't funded by tax dollars, it's voluntary and requires a minimum investment that made me literally spit tea all over my keyboard the first time I read the figures. Best of luck with that.

I am going to have to disagree regarding the "people will only ever buy this from china theory." this is why. If you walk around your local mall and price compare I think you will find that 70% of all products retailed in said mall are available cheaper at wal mart. a good 90% if you internet shop. In fact almost anything made in china is cheaper to buy from china then locally. There are a ton of products retailed in the us made in china. It has been like this for years and yet the malls have stayed open. People expect to pay more when they buy retail. They don't trust online buying and for good reason. Go look at the reviews on this very site regarding online purchases and you will find quite a few horror stories. My customer satisfactory rating is near 100%. Why? When My price is higher then the internet or china? Because when they get a defective product I replace it without even asking for a receipt. I offer a high level of customer service. I stand behind our product. This makes all the difference in the world. Will the market change? Yes I am sure. Will no one in america sell this product? I suspect they will be sold here for a long time unless the fda bans them. I am not against the ECA at all. I was only saying their dues are too high and nothing more...