dues to high

[Babachoo]

^^

Your example is flawed though because nobody really ordered anything at all directly from China until now due to trade restrictions, tariffs, and minimum order quantities. Direct consumer trades are a new thing between the U.S. and China as far as individuals making small personal use orders and not buying in bulk directly from the manufactures or distributors for the purpose of reselling.

Also, you seem to think that malls are immune to the collapsing economy, so here's an article from the Wall Street Journal that might bring you up to speed...

Recession Turns Malls Into Ghost Towns - WSJ.com

In the 12 months ended March 31, U.S. malls collectively posted a 6.5% decline in tenants' same-store sales

General Growth Properties, which owns more than 200 U.S. malls, filed for bankruptcy protection April 16, due mainly to its failure to refinance billions of dollars of debt coming due.

Here's another wake up call...

deadmalls DOT com


If my atomizer or battery goes bad on my 801 (which I pay $5 and $7 for, respectively) 364 days after I buy it, will you ship me a new one before I even send you the defective one, for free, and tell me to keep it until I have more things to return so I can save a couple dollars on return shipping? If so, then how much do you sell what I can get for $12 elsewhere? If it's not cheaper, then there's no reason I should do business with someone running a kiosk in a dying mall who is overcharging to pay for his high overhead, bottom line.

But I respect your healthy optimism and salute you for being a trooper despite so many signs of impending doom.

 

[dinc]

So if you feel like donating funds to bail water out of a sinking boat full of American middlemen, by all means give until you have no more money left for groceries.

Oh, I like you!

But I hate that you seem to be right.

 

[Mac]

^^

Your example is flawed though because nobody really ordered anything at all directly from China until now due to trade restrictions, tariffs, and minimum order quantities. Direct consumer trades are a new thing between the U.S. and China as far as individuals making small personal use orders and not buying in bulk directly from the manufactures or distributors for the purpose of reselling.

Also, you seem to think that malls are immune to the collapsing economy, so here's an article from the Wall Street Journal that might bring you up to speed...

Recession Turns Malls Into Ghost Towns - WSJ.com

In the 12 months ended March 31, U.S. malls collectively posted a 6.5% decline in tenants' same-store sales

General Growth Properties, which owns more than 200 U.S. malls, filed for bankruptcy protection April 16, due mainly to its failure to refinance billions of dollars of debt coming due.

Here's another wake up call...

deadmalls DOT com


If my atomizer or battery goes bad on my 801 (which I pay $5 and $7 for, respectively) 364 days after I buy it, will you ship me a new one before I even send you the defective one, for free, and tell me to keep it until I have more things to return so I can save a couple dollars on return shipping? If so, then how much do you sell what I can get for $12 elsewhere? If it's not cheaper, then there's no reason I should do business with someone running a kiosk in a dying mall who is overcharging to pay for his high overhead, bottom line.

But I respect your healthy optimism and salute you for being a trooper despite so many signs of impending doom.

The bottom line is this. I am here at a mall everyday doing business and the numbers don't lie. You can theorize and tell me that my business is doomed all you want. My kiosk is going strong. we are opening a second one next month in fact. Maybe all the customers here forgot that they aren't supposed to be buying from me but they are so *blows raspberry*

 

[Babachoo]

The bottom line is this. I am here at a mall everyday doing business and the numbers don't lie. You can theorize and tell me that my business is doomed all you want. My kiosk is going strong. we are opening a second one next month in fact. Maybe all the customers here forgot that they aren't supposed to be buying from me but they are so *blows raspberry*

In other words, the only reason you're in business is because a vast percentage of the population is quite dumb and is only aware of things if it is thrust into the scenery of their suburban lifestyle and hyped in a way that keeps their focus on impulse buying rather than researching competition before buying. This segment of consumers is decreasing every day, the last of the holdouts who are not proficient with the internet are gradually waking up, but the people who are just dumb, well, they'll still be dumb. So you'll always have at least a possibility of a tiny target market, assuming the FDA doesn't raid your kiosk or your mall doesn't shut down like the hundreds others that have shut down in the last year.

You don't seem to be too malicious about preying on the stupid, so because of this, I actually hope things work out for you for as long as possible. Just keep your head on straight and keep your ethics and morals intact.

 

[Mac]

In other words, the only reason you're in business is because a vast percentage of the population is quite dumb and is only aware of things if it is thrust into the scenery of their suburban lifestyle and hyped in a way that keeps their focus on impulse buying rather than researching competition before buying. This segment of consumers is decreasing every day, the last of the holdouts who are not proficient with the internet are gradually waking up, but the people who are just dumb, well, they'll still be dumb. So you'll always have at least a possibility of a tiny target market, assuming the FDA doesn't raid your kiosk or your mall doesn't shut down like the hundreds others that have shut down in the last year.

You don't seem to be too malicious about preying on the stupid, so because of this, I actually hope things work out for you for as long as possible. Just keep your head on straight and keep your ethics and morals intact.

Well it's a tourist town so.. yeah. As far as I can tell my customers are all pretty happy with me so I don't feel I have done a disservice. In fact many come back later to thank me and tell me how much money they have saved. I take it you have no hope at all that our economy will recover?

 

[lvlninety9]

Well it's a tourist town so.. yeah. As far as I can tell my customers are all pretty happy with me so I don't feel I have done a disservice. In fact many come back later to thank me and tell me how much money they have saved. I take it you have no hope at all that our economy will recover?

When did this become a discussion about Mall kiosks and not the what the OP had intended which were the high dues for the ECA? And just because your doing well for yourself doesn't mean that things aren't going downhill. Granted some areas are being hit harder then others but for you to disavow any knowledge of the economy failing is in itself a failure on your part. Eventually it will come to your area and you will feel the effects. And your comment on it's a tourist town? Well that might be great for business for you now but truth be told with the economy steadily going downhill and so far no relief in sight, that tourism is going to eventually grind to a halt as people will have less money to travel. Granted these are if's and maybe's, but you can't deny the fact that it is a possibility. I just have one question for you. Do you think the economy is going to recover to where you don't have to worry about losing business?

 

[Mac]

When did this become a discussion about Mall kiosks and not the what the OP had intended which were the high dues for the ECA? And just because your doing well for yourself doesn't mean that things aren't going downhill. Granted some areas are being hit harder then others but for you to disavow any knowledge of the economy failing is in itself a failure on your part. Eventually it will come to your area and you will feel the effects. And your comment on it's a tourist town? Well that might be great for business for you now but truth be told with the economy steadily going downhill and so far no relief in sight, that tourism is going to eventually grind to a halt as people will have less money to travel. Granted these are if's and maybe's, but you can't deny the fact that it is a possibility. I just have one question for you. Do you think the economy is going to recover to where you don't have to worry about losing business?

I originally posted this thread to complain about high membership dues, yes. But the doomsaying provoked an answer from me. All malls in america are gonna close? I don't buy it. Believe me the recession has hurt the local economy already. Businesses have closed. Others are way down. But the malls are open and doing business. There is a crowd here now in fact. I just find the argument that retail will no longer exist because it will be replaced by the internet to be ridiculous. Electronic cigarettes sell well in a poor economy because people are facing financial hardships and e-cigs save them money. Think about it.

Is the economy failing? Time will tell. Yes it's down but not out. Until I come to work and find the doors closed you won't convince me of otherwise. I am maintaining a positive outlook because I love this country and have high hopes for it. I am not ready to start hoarding dry foods and building bomb shelters just yet.

 

[lvlninety9]

I agree with you on some of your points. And I wasn't trying to bash on you, but I was just trying to point out that a lot of business are going to be going downhill for a while. I'm not speaking in the terms of closing down, just losing a lot of customers due to hard times. Do I think all the malls are going to close? Not at all. Do I feel that a lot of them are taking a financial hit? Yes I do. A lot of the friends I had at my job have since been laid off because times are getting rough. The only reason I'm still making it is because I have workman's comp at the moment due to a back injury. If I didn't have that I'd probably have been laid off as well. A to your point about the dues being so high for the ECA? I quite have to agree. Now while I'm not a supplier, I have run my own business before and even when you make money, you also have a lot of expenses to take care of. The ECA is the only organization that I know of that requires such high fees. I understand that it takes a lot of money, but at the same time you cut out a lot of those who can't afford it. Yes they have the whole we'll work with you clause but you know that turns off a lot of people regardless. Most people will see the app fees and the monthly dues and think yeah that's not worth it and won't read any more. I do feel that the ECA needs to get the consumers involved as well. It's ridiculous to think that only the suppliers get to be a part of this organization. It brings to mind a famous quote. United we stand divided we fall. Right now we are all divided between suppliers and consumers. As has been mentioned before, we would have a much bigger voice if everyone was allowed to be involved.The ECA is no different then the NRA in my eyes. And to those that say that it would be to difficult to change the way things are I call BS. You're losing out on a lot of consumer support as well as suppliers by being one-sided with suppliers only. Lower dues for suppliers and dues for consumer members will bring you in a lot more money then just trying to hamstring the suppliers.

 

[MonkeyMonk]

Message me for my response to this thread.

 

[Two-A-T]

Message me for my response to this thread.

WELL!!

That takes the fun out of it!! LOL

 

[wegster]

Not saying the group is a bad one, more that the member structure is perhaps not well thought out. And yes I know what lobbying is and how expensive it is, I've worked in DC.

Now that I have gotten over the shock of seeing your price tag for a logo I'll try to be a little more clear. I've often seen a company (yes, lobbying is a business venture) start out thinking that it would be easier to sell one unit for $100 rather then sell 100 units for $1(SE for instance). They just need that one person to click "buy" without comparing suppliers and they are golden. However this seldom works. Even if they put up a email link on their site that says to contact them for a discount most people will not bother as they still wont be willing to buy at $50.

The reasoning behind the high price is sound to a point. They won't have to hire help to process one order, they may have little competition, shipping is lower, storage will be less expensive, they wont need to spend the money on a high volume business. If only they can sell that one unit at a 1,000% price increase.

Unfortunately with this business concept and yours this seldom works. However this is what it seems to me that you are doing with your membership fees. For many of the folks running a small business that $300+ a month is a car payment, or a site overhaul to better serve their customers, or in some cases it is the difference between weather their children go to school in new cloths, or last years castoffs.

From a profit view point it is pretty well common knowledge that the lower price point not does not sell only 100 times as many units, but more likely a 1000 times as many. So really the way to bring in more money for the cause is to allow everyone the ability to join and send what they can, not just the elite who have nothing better to throw disposable income at. Most of the businesses selling the products concerned do not have disposable income at all.

Sure you can sell board seats and votes at a higher price or monthly commitment, most non profits do to one extent or another. However if you had a much lower (say $100 yearly) membership for the user and small business I'd bet you made vastly more money to support this cause. I'd even bet that the smaller businesses would be willing to give a discount to members at that rate to make it more appealing.

In the end, if everyone on this site alone sent you $10 a month, I'd bet that you would make more then you ever will with your elite level price scheme. I know it would mean more paper work, but then you did commit to run the organization right? Beyond that the numbers of active members are just as important in a lobbying effort as the amount of money you can throw around. Your members are also voters and a roll call of more than 10k members can make the difference for even getting in the door to talk to a politician.

Does my concern make sense now or am I just pointlessly ranting?

Very well said; agree entirely.

If the 'goal' is unification and strength through numbers, and increased awareness, 'membership' should not be exclusive, but more easily attained. I also saw no offer of the expenditure breakdown, or really much of what ECA is *doing* today, on the site last I looked.

Question: Do the Board Members pay dues themselves, out of their respective pockets as well? (I do hope so).

Regardless, an 'elite' organization (so to speak, $3600 a year minimum isn't chicken scratch for) seems at cross purposes to what is needed - strength is in numbers, and in making the issues known, but that pricing is excluding a fair number from it's ranks, so for all we can tell, it could be a sham, another 'non profit' for....profit, or self interest versus what it's claiming. I am not saying that *is* the case, but it could be perceived that way. As someone stated (from South America), they *wanted* to become a member and work out some $, but didn't get a response - what's the impression that gives you, if trying to decide if this is for the great good, or just the benefit of the 'elite few'?

Off to go do a bit of research on ECA again (it's been a while since I visited their site, but I recall being underwhelmed by info/actions at the time, and overwhelmed by said pricing.), but any direct info on what they have *done* for their non-profit money is greatly appreciated...

 

[Mac]

I agree with you on some of your points. And I wasn't trying to bash on you, but I was just trying to point out that a lot of business are going to be going downhill for a while. I'm not speaking in the terms of closing down, just losing a lot of customers due to hard times. Do I think all the malls are going to close? Not at all. Do I feel that a lot of them are taking a financial hit? Yes I do. A lot of the friends I had at my job have since been laid off because times are getting rough. The only reason I'm still making it is because I have workman's comp at the moment due to a back injury. If I didn't have that I'd probably have been laid off as well. A to your point about the dues being so high for the ECA? I quite have to agree. Now while I'm not a supplier, I have run my own business before and even when you make money, you also have a lot of expenses to take care of. The ECA is the only organization that I know of that requires such high fees. I understand that it takes a lot of money, but at the same time you cut out a lot of those who can't afford it. Yes they have the whole we'll work with you clause but you know that turns off a lot of people regardless. Most people will see the app fees and the monthly dues and think yeah that's not worth it and won't read any more. I do feel that the ECA needs to get the consumers involved as well. It's ridiculous to think that only the suppliers get to be a part of this organization. It brings to mind a famous quote. United we stand divided we fall. Right now we are all divided between suppliers and consumers. As has been mentioned before, we would have a much bigger voice if everyone was allowed to be involved.The ECA is no different then the NRA in my eyes. And to those that say that it would be to difficult to change the way things are I call BS. You're losing out on a lot of consumer support as well as suppliers by being one-sided with suppliers only. Lower dues for suppliers and dues for consumer members will bring you in a lot more money then just trying to hamstring the suppliers.

There is nothing you said there that I disagree with.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

We are moving in the direction of adding consumer members, but this simply can not happen over night ...might see it in the coming weeks. As far as the supplier dues they will remain the same we feel it is a fair amount considering the curcumstances. PLEASE REMEMBER SMALL BUSINESSES AND NEW SUPPLIERS CAN WORK WITH THE ECA ON A DUE THAT REPRESENTS THERE MARKET SHARE.

Again the reasoning behind the lowest dues...is simply bigger companies may pick the lowest dues too be a part of the ECA and it is simply not fair if they have 10% of the market share and were to only pay $10 a month while smaller suppliers pay more and therefore let the bigger companies rely on others to save their industry. I realize many may not agree with the ECA's logic, however the ECA is made of suppliers that are very big companies and also part time smaller companies...BOTH ends AGREED on the dues feeling they are fair.


Of course BOD members pay dues Some are paying even higher amounts then the highest due 5k+ a month ....we even paid the application fees...I personally created the application and I even had to fill it out and pay the app fee...

 

[Mac]

We are moving in the direction of adding consumer members, but this simply can not happen over night ...might see it in the coming weeks. As far as the supplier dues they will remain the same we feel it is a fair amount considering the curcumstances. PLEASE REMEMBER SMALL BUSINESSES AND NEW SUPPLIERS CAN WORK WITH THE ECA ON A DUE THAT REPRESENTS THERE MARKET SHARE.

Again the reasoning behind the lowest dues...is simply bigger companies may pick the lowest dues too be a part of the ECA and it is simply not fair if they have 10% of the market share and were to only pay $10 a month while smaller suppliers pay more and therefore let the bigger companies rely on others to save their industry. I realize many may not agree with the ECA's logic, however the ECA is made of suppliers that are very big companies and also part time smaller companies...BOTH ends AGREED on the dues feeling they are fair.


Of course BOD members pay dues Some are paying even higher amounts then the highest due 5k+ a month ....we even paid the application fees...I personally created the application and I even had to fill it out and pay the app fee...

When I talked to Jack he said "If you can't afford the $300 a month just go make a donation on the website." To be honest at this point I am not convinced that you can save our industry. I support what you are doing but as I see our society step closer and closer toward an orwellien police state I suspect that I will come to work one day to be greeted by cops with a cease and desist order. Putting me in the unemployment line and my boss into bankruptcy. So at this point we are saving our pennies. Long story short I am all for what you are doing but now unwilling to support the ECA financially. Perhaps if when he called me Jack had offered a $20 monthly membership I would have talked my boss into signing us up. But that was not the case. Now I am gunshy.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

When I talked to Jack he said "If you can't afford the $300 a month just go make a donation on the website." To be honest at this point I am not convinced that you can save our industry. I support what you are doing but as I see our society step closer and closer toward an orwellien police state I suspect that I will come to work one day to be greeted by cops with a cease and desist order. Putting me in the unemployment line and my boss into bankruptcy. So at this point we are saving our pennies. Long story short I am all for what you are doing but now unwilling to support the ECA financially. Perhaps if when he called me Jack had offered a $20 monthly membership I would have talked my boss into signing us up. But that was not the case. Now I am gunshy.

Jack is not responsible for new membership and may not have been familiar with the policies in effect if he did indeed say that I apologize for the confusion and I will personally address it with him. There is still good reason to believe we will come out on top with this... It may not be outwardly obvious but ECA members are more privy to up to the minute political actions. I would invite you to join our weekly ECA conference call for members and potential members every sunday night at 9est. Feel free to email me at alanza@ecassoc.org to discuss if you like.

 

[lvlninety9]

Just out of curiosity what do you get out of the different levels of membership? From what I've read on the ECA site you really don't get much of anything. All levels of membership seem to entitle one to the exact same thing. From a business standpoint the higher membership fees gives one a different colored membership status and the brand of looking like a fool for paying $5000 for something he could get for $300. I've said it before and it's been confirmed even more that the small business is being ham-stringed. What the ECA deemed as a fair membership fee seems more like a punishment to the small business man. If you want to instill a fairness with your fees then incorporate some level of involvement with the different membership status. I keep coming back to the same thing every time I think about this. Why pay the higher membership fees when I can get the same thing for the cheapest fee? Answer? No incentive to pay the higher fees when everything is all inclusive with your basic fee. That in turn will lose a lot of support for those smaller business that can't afford to pay the $300 a month. I understand that the ECA needs money, but at the same time more then half of the potential income that could be raised is not there. You ask for donations from consumers but they don't get anything out of it. And to be quite honest for all that's supposed to come from the ECA? All I've seen is one 5 second blurb on Good Morning America. Yeah there's my money hard at work.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

SMALLER BUSINESSES SIMPLY NEED TO CONTACT THE ECA TO WORK OUT A DUE SCHEDULE THAT FITS WITHIN THEIR BUDGET. please feel free to contact me personally Alanza@ecassoc.org

It seems to me that many suppliers have not done this because they are a larger business and know that we may not grant them a lower due...so they would rather other suppliers bear the burden of these costs and headaches and ride on the coat tails of the ECA. Or Maybe thier marketing does not meet our standards.... Its either that or they simply do not see our need or agree with our stances.... whichever it is the ECA can't change their minds....

again I will say though

If you want to be on board with the ECA and can't afford the dues we still want you please contact us ASAP

Right now the color seal and status are all that is different between membership levels at the moment. In the future there will be other incentives like you see with other associations...they have yet to be decided upon and are not our biggest priority right now...many of our members pay over the amount of dues asked of them ....simply out of knowledge that this fight needs every penny with no reward or additional incentive...

The concern of the suppliers involved is to focus on the task at hand, and when we have some breathing room we will be adding many features...such as incentives and consumer memberships.

I have posted more then the good morning america link in another thread as well...NY Times and etc... and I know of at least 5 more interviews Matt has coming up in the next 2 weeks. But that is just the PR end and there is much going on behind the scenes on the hill.

There are many things going on behind the scenes politically, when it comes to what, and to whom we are lobby and what the progress is. The political area is a hairy place, and if we were to expose progress/wins or defeats that went on behind the scenes we can burn a lot of bridges.

 

[renderwerks]

I'm just a consumer and new vaper, and am looking forward to memberships for all of us. I'll be joining, that's for sure. In the mean time, I'll donate what I can; it's important.

I already spread the word as much as I can, and have written to my government officials expressing my experiences and thoughts on this topic.

I've been reading through this thread and it seems that there are a great number of small internet retailers that probably don't make a clear monthly profit that $300/month or even 1/4 of that doesn't represent a double digit amount of their profits.

I've read around on the internet that many "mom & pop" or sole owner vape businesses only generate $3000-5000 total sales per month. I have no idea how much their end profit is (brick & mortar retail averages 1-1/2 - 3% profit), but even if it was double digit, that still leaves little room for membership dues.

Has the ECA looked at how much of the industry it's missing out on with the membership dues what they are? Without any data of my own, I'd guess it's a considerable amount.

I know that nycsublimegirl says to just contact the ECA for reduced membership, but I would guess that most of these small internet retailers would resign to thinking that they couldn't join because of how little they could afford to pay monthly compared to the published dues.

Perhaps for now, the best thing to do to "reel in" the smaller retailers, would be to create a lesser membership fee based on their small size; a percentage of their average profits. I don't know how that would be determined, but it's a thought.

I think the ECA is missing out on a great deal of revenue and the strength of numbers because of this.

Just my 2c.

 

[lvlninety9]

Render you make some very good points, but one also has to remember that even though someone is possibly making that $5000 a month in sales you have to take in to account the expenses that they have as well. Especially if selling e-cigs is their only line of work. Cost of living is going up. I know that my electric bill has all but doubled just in the last couple of years. Not to mention rent or house payments. Granted I understand that this is a very big issue for a lot of us and that it does require a lot of money to support it, but why hamstring the smaller business with higher membership fees because of the mentality that a bigger company might take on the lowest membership possible? This is just me but I feel that the membership fee shouldn't be that high and if a company really wants to put forth the extra money then they can. But it shouldn't be a requirement to be a part of the organization that at the moment only gives you something that can be put up on your website. And for the record no business should have to divulge any kind of information about what they are bringing in to determine how much they should pay for membership. That's tantamount to extortion.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

I agree with you...we want and need them...please suppliers don't be shy or intimidated call or email me asap at alanza@ecassoc.org ....we all start somewhere.

We have small suppliers members now....

If a small supplier does not want to pick up the phone or email to find out how to help .....there is not much I can say.....

I am in here all the time...I may have some bitting remarks at times...but I always seem to be defending myself or the ECA which can wear on a person so for that I apologize...but I am honestly very open and friendly...and would not mind talking personally on the phone with any supplier interested in joining no matter their size... and even if they can afford $0 and just want to donate their time...

Right under the dues it does say to contact us if your smaller... yes that may mean something like $50-$100 a month and waived app fee, but 1-2 kits a month gross to save their part time business.... is not asking a lot...

I am friends with other suppliers on here that do this part time and they are a part or becoming a part of the ECA....


However let me clarify something that is very important in this discussion.

If you are only selling 10 kits a month.....you most likely do not have things like insurance or a tax EIN #...... so we can not enroll them in the ECA business membership anyway...A supplier without those things does not meet the classification of business....

Also the ECA is putting thier "stamp of approval" in a way on their members marketing as well as their business practices....so they have to be a legitimate business. If people are mom and pops, selling them out of the trunk of their car, or have a website but no articles of incorporation..... how can we be expected to legitimize them?



Too sum up, the published dues have been voted into the bylaws and our a fixture in the ECA until which time there are no more concerns about marketing in the US. Consumer memberships were discussed in the last meeting of the BOD and it was agreed it was a good idea and we are now taking steps to implement...but it will be at least a few weeks to a month till you see that.