E-Cigarette Forum Discussion Thread
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I've been enjoying the conversation collection here so much tonight! Thank You!
With such a wide field of record-breakingly excellent contestants, it wasn't easy, and it took me a minute, but here's my personal fave, which I am confident is a shoo-in to for the coveted Best.Post.Juxtaposition.Ever.Award.
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Topic Change Zone
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Can I + like a googillion?
YES! That says so many things that I've wanted to say, and just couldn't get it to come out making sense, being polite, and under 7000 words!
Props, Miss Kristin!
But this is the part I've been pondering lately:
As I read more there, I've wondered if I've been oversimplifying the terrain of that common ground, projecting too much of my own worldview on it.
There's a distinction between making an actual permanent change to a different behavior and simply refraining from a behavior, there's a difference between depriving ourselves of a thing and indulging in something we like better.
Here, the shared goals we have are very cut-and-dried - reduce or cease the consumption of tobacco cigarettes and use e-cigarettes instead.
Our reasons for wanting to do that tend to be mundane and practical - things like a desire to live longer, avoid diseases, save money, or in my case, wanting to be more physically comfortable.
Whatever beliefs and primordial needs we may have as individuals exist independently of, and are even transcended by what we share, namely those very one-dimensional, temporal goals.
We support and encourage each other in every aspect of achieving them, from the basic ascent up the learning curve to the most minute details of the instruments we'll use to do it.
For the Quitistas, smoking, or ceasing to smoke, takes on a role that's almost symbolic of a larger, more spiritual process, or at least spiritual-adjacent.
I don't mean they don't want to stop smoking, I mean they want to stop smoking in a materially different way, for a whole other layer of reasons.
I'm not sure if it's possible to separate their smoking cessation process from their beliefs or divorce it from those primordial needs.
They don't want to "upgrade" to a behavior or a device that is more pleasurable, they only want to renounce the pleasure of the original one and NOT replace it! That refraining, that renunciation and deprivation, are for them, crucial elements that must exist in order for their process to be in accord with their needs and beliefs.
I enjoy the comical aspects of everything, but never with disrespect, certainly not malice, and I haven't perceived those things coming from other people. I probably have some beliefs that would make you smile, and if you did, I wouldn't take offense, I smile at some of them myself - and laugh out loud at others!
That's going to cause some feelings on the part of some of the people there, specifically those who have been there a while and bonded with the place. And yeah, there's a little arpeggio of Galileo and the church, Ed Sullivan era culture and Elvis, lather rinse repeat for the Beatles, on and on, and we could probably have gone back and started with Scott Joplin (and all rejoice that I didn't).
Even with all that, I think there'll always be a place for forums like the Quitistas. For some people, "cold turkey" is simply a better fit - even the only fit - for a particular configuration of beliefs and deep-seated needs, and for some people, the whole process, as well as their reasons for wanting to stop smoking, is so firmly rooted in those beliefs and needs that it wouldn't even make sense to try and separate it.
As I read the thoughts of people both here and there, my impression is that as is the case with me, for many if not most people here, those more "secular" or temporal goals are the whole ball of wax, the sum and substance of the prize, whereas there, they're almost incidental, just little bonus prizettes, in the context of that larger, more complex journey.
If someone who's just in it for the temporal, quotidian stuff about saving money or living more time on earth asked my advice, I'd tell them to come poke around here, even if they weren't interested in changing to e-cigarettes at all!
Oh, no, I've done it again! Maybe I should have put it on the blog, it's sort of an (extremely abbreviated, believe it or not) version of the Lost Rant cigarbabe Inspired, and now here comes Kristin inspiring so much of the same rantage.
Merciful sum-up: Any dialogue is good dialogue. Whole entire countries and cultures have been carrying on a variation of that same discussion for centuries on end, with results all over the map. There is common ground. Kristin's post has the potential to be a Turning Point. cigarbabe and Kristin are both awesome.
YOU ROCK LOLADY!
Is it possible for you to come and "trip the light cigarbabe" perhaps mind meld with me?
I want to read your brains!
I'm glad to have inspired any rant even if it's lost!
C.B.
Other than "cupboard" can you think of an English word where the "P" is silent? I don't mean words that we've borrowed like pneumatic, corps, etc. I've racked my brain, and I can't think of one so it's a serious question.
Point being, phonetics can only get you so far. If you don't know the origin of the word they're not always going to be helpful.
I guess thats where it helps to have been multi-lingual as a child...even if I have forgotten most of it...I can still tell if an old Polish or German grandma is chewing me out if that counts...
Well, that's the thing about beliefs. They exist outside the sort of implied consistency clause that some of us try, with varying degrees of success, to apply to things like our opinions.MagnusEunson said:
Now I know this analogy treads on shaky ground in terms of venue-appropriateness, but it's right there, obvious, and I believe at least relatively lurker-inclusive-audience-accessible.
Yes, I mean selective literal interpretation of 7th or 8th translation generation of sacred texts, typically originally written in a language the selective literal interpreter doesn't read, in a time and cultural context where people spoke in metaphors and allegories to do so much as the era-equivalent of ordering a pizza (which we do, too, but don't always realize it) and then along comes some wag who feels compelled to "call him on it" and asks him something like how come his wife isn't wearing purple then, or some similar snarkage, which naturally enrages the believer, makes the non-believer look like a douchegrade kicker of kittens, and next thing you know it's one of those flame wars, or if offline, a shouting match, or worse.
kristin said:
There's a fine line between beliefs and cultural core values, but that crystallizes a pertinent cluster of the latter very nicely. Anyone who wanders in and sees it will find a treasure trove of answers to a whole mess of questions about a whole mess of things, that begin with "why?"
kristin said:
Well, you and I may have a fundamental difference of opinion here, with regard to that "tastes as good" part.
I think it's a really good illustration of your previous point - as well as the crux of our shared major difference from "them," precisely because that stuff doesn't taste as good, whereas e-cigarettes not only taste AS good, they taste way, way better - and they do it in 17 basquillion flavors!
Hell yeah, we're having our cake and eating it, too! Which we can do, because for us, that's either a moral neutral, or a moral plus, on the basis that anything that helps us achieve those temporal, flesh-centered goals like living longer is a plus, anything that makes us happy is a plus, while to them, in addition to the "virtue in suffering" belief, our goals themselves are superficial things, sad strings of shabby tinsel.
kristin said:
(we need a nod icon!) Which we're able to do because which method someone else chooses is - for us - another moral neutral!
kristin said:
Right! And to us, that comes with its own fundamental flaw because there's a very high probability that they, like us, will continue to be addicted to things like daily showers, the use of anti-perspirants and mouthwash - and, to remove the stigma of a wrinkled old freshness-challenged re-used example, since I did say those things the other day, I'll add high thread count sheets. Very clean ones, devoid of cookie crumbs.
nitejanitor said:
I think you're perceiving something very important.
You've seen the way people here are so enthusiastic about the device that's worked for them that when new people arrive, and ask "which e-cigarette is best?" A lot of the replies they get can only be described as evangelical.
Come back a week later, the new person has chosen a device, and he and all the evangels, each one who prefers a different e-cigarette than the one New Guy chose, have become good friends.
Every message you'll see directed at New Guy from all of them is about how delighted they are that he's so happy with his e-cigarette, and most of all they're glad to hear that he's already been able to reduce the number of tobacco cigarettes he smokes by over half, and is well on his way to phasing them out completely!
Sure, they all thought he should pick the one they like. They think everybody should, because to them, theirs is the best one. But that's just their opinion, their personal preference for a device.
But what's really important to them is that their new friend is having a pleasant experience, and is smoking fewer tobacco cigarettes. They hope he'll be able to make a complete transition.
Compared to that, their personal preference for one device over another is an insignificant detail, that is transcended and trumped by those shared desires and goals several times over!
The device evangelism we saw last week isn't belief-based. As hard as somebody might root for Team ThunderDromeGrandMiniSupreme, which e-cigarette his new friend chooses is a moral neutral.
For the Quitistas, it's very important to them that new people understand that using an e-cigarette is fundamentally at variance with their beliefs.
Some of them try very hard to tolerate the idea, but it's not easy, because they can't help but feel uncomfortable, and have some questions about whether that new person wants to stop smoking in the same way they do, for the same reasons.
They're anxious to help that person come to a deeper understanding of their beliefs about what it means to smoke, and what it means to stop, and stop for the right reasons, in the hope that they'll see that an e-cigarette is so not a good fit for achieving goals that go beyond simple smoking cessation, which they hope the person wants to do for reasons that are much more complex and multilayered than the basic live-longer-save-money package that's standard over here.
Their evangelism is deeply rooted in beliefs, in very fundamental emotional needs. Almost nothing pertaining to the process of smoking cessation is a moral neutral.
The Good Deed Posse's evangelism is more about making information available. To them, it's all essentially about moral neutrals, with one exception, at least kindasortically - they feel so very strongly that people should have as much factual information as possible about their options - including e-cigarettes, that it does cease to become a moral neutral to them - even though the use of e-cigarettes keeps on being one!
So you're right, that there's some degree of evangelism going on in all those situations, but if you're missing anything, it's just the difference in flavor - one is belief-based, one isn't, and the third is a kind of situational hybrid.
It would be very unfair - not to mention unrealistic - for me to think I can go over there and expect the Quitistas to educate and inform me about choices that at best, aren't a good fit for their beliefs and needs, and at worst, are morally abhorrent to them.
It would be equally unrealistic for the Quitistas to assume that every person who wanders in is going to share their beliefs.
It's just a fact that, as Kristin points out, there are many more people who know they should stop smoking than people who really want to stop, and of those who really want to stop, the vast majority of them are driven by those temporal reasons.
E-cigarettes are new, and there are lots of people who don't know about them at all, or who know they exist but don't really know a lot of dull, dry facts about them.
That's where the Good Deed Posse comes in, and that's why their evangelism is that kind of hybrid - any and all evangelism about education and information has to be counted as belief-based, for the simple reason that some people believe very strongly that some kinds of information should so not be available.
Their evangelism about e-cigarettes themselves, however, isn't belief-based. It's not a moral neutral to them that you know about e-cigarettes, but what method you choose to use to help you stop smoking totally is.
Actually, you should have just scrolled past all that, because as usual, kristin says it better, and in waay fewer words:
kristin said:
(Re-nod) And a fundamental aspect of their belief that all who visit quit smoking sites SHOULD want to quit for the same reasons they do!
kristin said:
If anybody could keep on calmly and courteously making information available without cooperating with pot-stirrers and llama herders, it's the Good Deed Posse.
The say nothing negative here part is trickier.
MustangSallie said:
As much as I applaud the idea just for being a laudable goal on its own merits - and will be more than willing to sacrifice my portion of snark, however innocent my intent and malice-free my heart, I'm inclined to agree with MustangSallie's implied caution that we guard all our hearts against disappointment.
Because of all those fundamental belief - moral neutrality gaps, I'm having a hard time seeing how virtually anything said here could be perceived as anything other than an ipso facto "negative" without requiring a compromise of principle on the part of the Quitistas.
Even the "wanting to save lives" aspect is tainted, because what you're wanting to save is no more than the earthly lives of people whose only interest in ceasing to smoke is that they might obtain more of this shallow temporal existence, which they plan to devote to the slavish pursuit of even more pleasure than they were receiving from tobacco cigarettes.
Any potential savees for whom that's not the case will be instantly happy as hogs in a waller over there and unlikely to make it to even the outer corner of the Good Deed Posse's radar in the first place.
That said, just as any dialogue is better than none, any effort to build peaceful co-existence and mutual respect is a Good Thing (TM) in my opinion, and I will henceforth strive to keep my smart-alecky allusions to Monty Python skits under strict mental lockdown, and only enjoy them offline, and when no one else is around.
WOW LOLADY...!!! how long does it take you to type something like that...and actually say something that sounds great....Me I spend a half hr or more for a quarter of that due to editing and rewriting...You're neat...
Huh? What? Who doesn't think I speak pretty?
I bring glorious informations to the Ee-Sea-Heff and I getting criticisizations of the languages Pinglihs?
Congrats on anniversaries! Spell checkers!
And something else..... -Magnus
I bring glorious informations to the Ee-Sea-Heff and I getting criticisizations of the languages Pinglihs?
Congrats on anniversaries! Spell checkers!
And something else..... -Magnus
Uhhh apparently you?...
I couldn't help myself...cumon man your English is Impeccable...quite possibly better than mine...
we luv ya man...you help keep it lively...and I would love to see your style of comments and unarguable truths on the Q board...probably why they aren't approved...
Marine Corps.
Psychedelic.
Pneumatics.
Pseudonym.
Pneumonia.
Raspberry.
Receipt.
I'm sure there's more, those are the ones off the top of my head.
GRRRR I have issues with that last word...
well we have company...
well we have company...
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Never did get to my grocery shopping today. Figured I had enough in the stockpile to last a few more days...lol!
Nhaler's 10mg High Voltage Octane Mochaccino in a cart modded with the PTB Made Easy filler on a 510 atty with an eGo battery.
That sounds like I'm speaking a foreign language, lol!
well we have company...
OMG it took me 26 minutes to realize what you meant by this, lol!
You apparently only read the first line of my post. You listed two words I explicitly excluded. Oh, nevermind...
Does anyone else here go to the Renaissance Faire when it's in town? Just started this weekend here and I can't wait!
I made my mom a special Renaissance e-cig case for her new Riva (to use at the Faire, since she's there every weekend as the director of the Friends of Faire club) and I can't wait until she sees it - it's turning out so cool!! (It's a surprise for her.)
Here it is in progress (my design):
(Hopefully it's ok to share the pic here)
You can't tell from the pic, but the background is on clear paper, so the gold shows through & it looks like tarnished gold is in the "recessed" areas. So, the areas that look tan-colored are actually shiny gold! And the crystals are real Swarovski crystals.
I made my mom a special Renaissance e-cig case for her new Riva (to use at the Faire, since she's there every weekend as the director of the Friends of Faire club) and I can't wait until she sees it - it's turning out so cool!! (It's a surprise for her.)
Here it is in progress (my design):
(Hopefully it's ok to share the pic here)
You can't tell from the pic, but the background is on clear paper, so the gold shows through & it looks like tarnished gold is in the "recessed" areas. So, the areas that look tan-colored are actually shiny gold! And the crystals are real Swarovski crystals.
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