E-Cigarette Forum Discussion Thread
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If chiefy is getting outta line, feel free to say so...Im fighting fire with fire these days.
Thanks for posting that for me BC!
Yes Brad, I was pleased to see that someone posted it for me there. Thank you for pointing out that the post was authored by me.
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Well... Since you asked. You certainly are fanning the flames.
Okay, not only am I addicted to nicotine, I am addicted to this train wreck. I gotta get back to work. See you all later.
I dont think were dealing with reasonable people here...we have been quite nice and civil since we stepped in...but these people smell blood and attack...time to bite back!
We tried logic, evidence, acceptance, empathy, reason...you name it. And only asked to be able to give INFO, not convince or sell, just inform. SOOOO...Gotta love the swayze line..
" I want you to be nice, until its time...to not be nice"
We tried logic, evidence, acceptance, empathy, reason...you name it. And only asked to be able to give INFO, not convince or sell, just inform. SOOOO...Gotta love the swayze line..
" I want you to be nice, until its time...to not be nice"
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Eh, I'm not so sure. I'd never tell anyone else here how to behave, so I'm not dissin' you so to speak. I certainly understand the desire to go head to head. I've can have a bit of a short fuse and I need to pay a lot of attention to keep it in check. But somebody has to blink first.
On the plus side, I can't chain vape when I'm here. Can't hold the e-cig and type at the same time.
And on that note... I really AM going back to work!
This whole thing makes me so sad. Why can some of them just not see that we aren't trying to take away their quit, replace their method to quit or even stop their mission to help other people quit. We just want to ADD to it to help even MORE people quit smoking.
I would just say to leave them alone to preach their "no nicotine ever for anyone" philosophy, but I just know that the science doesn't support that methodology for ALL smokers. That mentality is what is causing millions of smokers to keep smoking and is exactly what we are fighting with the tobacco prohibitionists who insist that nicotine abstinence is the only acceptable solution to millions of smokers getting sick or dying from smoke exposure. IT ISN'T WORKING. The science and the research and the medical journals ALL agree that it isn't working for 93% of smokers who keep relapsing. For them to be allowed to keep telling smokers who are trying to quit that their ONLY option to quit smoking is to quit nicotine is just as is unconscionable to me as it would be to allow the ALA, ACS, CTFK and those others who are letting smokers die by keeping the truth from them. They have changed the crusade against smoking (to help smokers improve their health) into a crusade against addiction, which ISN'T helping smokers anymore. It stopped being about health and became all about controlling behavior (addiction/nicotine use.) If it was TRULY about health, they would admit that the science supports long-term alternative nicotine alternatives for many smokers as a more reliable health change. (By "they" I mean the "public health" groups, not the QSMB members. I feel that those members have really just been mislead for so many years along with the rest of us and they haven't seen the truth of it yet. I know it took a while for me to learn the truth, too. Nicotine cessation works for a lot of smokers, but it simply doesn't work for MOST and teh gameplan NEEDS to change.)
The science and research shows that quitting nicotine altogether works for SOME smokers, but not the MAJORITY of smokers. Most who quit, quit-smoke-quit in cycles, quit for a while and then go back to long-term smoking, use an NRT permenantly (35-40% of gum users never wean off the gum), switch to a smokeless tobacco or just never bother even trying at all because they are told they have to give up nicotine. So, much of the "success" that those tobacco control groups claim aren't even true success at quitting nicotine (or even smoking in most cases.) An average smoker who relapses for 6 months does more damage to themselves in that short time than 20 years of smokeless nicotine use could ever do.
It's a strange world when people aren't just happy that other people have removed 99% of the health risks associated with smoking (which is the purpose of quitting nicotine to quit smoking in the first place) but insist the others also have to quit nicotine, when taking that extra step may be just the thing that pushes those people to relapse. Why do they not seem to care that the continued nicotine use without smoking is SAVING LIVES??
If a stop-nicotine pill was invented that would keep people from smoking or using nicotine, but the person would have to take that pill every day for the rest of their lives and it had some possible minor side effects similar to other stimulants like nicotine or caffeine (which you know it would because no pill is 100% safe EVER), would they also be against smokers using that pill? Or would they accept it simply because it's NOT nicotine and a true "addiction" - even though you would be dependent upon it and it could have ill side effects?
To be honest, I'd be happy if Fred just had a stickied thread at the top of the e-cigarette forum that makes the scientific argument for harm reduction for smokers who cannot or will not quit and links to ECF and CASAA and I'd never post there again. Because I felt like I was actually getting to know some on a different level and could stay - Stephanie and I were actually talking couponing in a another thread and (I thought) putting our different philosophies on quitting smoking aside and Diane seemed pretty cool, too - but then I saw that new thread and the comments they made there. It really made me disappointed and very sad, becauase I thought we were all finally getting on the same page about saving lives over worrying about how we do it.
I would just say to leave them alone to preach their "no nicotine ever for anyone" philosophy, but I just know that the science doesn't support that methodology for ALL smokers. That mentality is what is causing millions of smokers to keep smoking and is exactly what we are fighting with the tobacco prohibitionists who insist that nicotine abstinence is the only acceptable solution to millions of smokers getting sick or dying from smoke exposure. IT ISN'T WORKING. The science and the research and the medical journals ALL agree that it isn't working for 93% of smokers who keep relapsing. For them to be allowed to keep telling smokers who are trying to quit that their ONLY option to quit smoking is to quit nicotine is just as is unconscionable to me as it would be to allow the ALA, ACS, CTFK and those others who are letting smokers die by keeping the truth from them. They have changed the crusade against smoking (to help smokers improve their health) into a crusade against addiction, which ISN'T helping smokers anymore. It stopped being about health and became all about controlling behavior (addiction/nicotine use.) If it was TRULY about health, they would admit that the science supports long-term alternative nicotine alternatives for many smokers as a more reliable health change. (By "they" I mean the "public health" groups, not the QSMB members. I feel that those members have really just been mislead for so many years along with the rest of us and they haven't seen the truth of it yet. I know it took a while for me to learn the truth, too. Nicotine cessation works for a lot of smokers, but it simply doesn't work for MOST and teh gameplan NEEDS to change.)
The science and research shows that quitting nicotine altogether works for SOME smokers, but not the MAJORITY of smokers. Most who quit, quit-smoke-quit in cycles, quit for a while and then go back to long-term smoking, use an NRT permenantly (35-40% of gum users never wean off the gum), switch to a smokeless tobacco or just never bother even trying at all because they are told they have to give up nicotine. So, much of the "success" that those tobacco control groups claim aren't even true success at quitting nicotine (or even smoking in most cases.) An average smoker who relapses for 6 months does more damage to themselves in that short time than 20 years of smokeless nicotine use could ever do.
It's a strange world when people aren't just happy that other people have removed 99% of the health risks associated with smoking (which is the purpose of quitting nicotine to quit smoking in the first place) but insist the others also have to quit nicotine, when taking that extra step may be just the thing that pushes those people to relapse. Why do they not seem to care that the continued nicotine use without smoking is SAVING LIVES??
If a stop-nicotine pill was invented that would keep people from smoking or using nicotine, but the person would have to take that pill every day for the rest of their lives and it had some possible minor side effects similar to other stimulants like nicotine or caffeine (which you know it would because no pill is 100% safe EVER), would they also be against smokers using that pill? Or would they accept it simply because it's NOT nicotine and a true "addiction" - even though you would be dependent upon it and it could have ill side effects?
To be honest, I'd be happy if Fred just had a stickied thread at the top of the e-cigarette forum that makes the scientific argument for harm reduction for smokers who cannot or will not quit and links to ECF and CASAA and I'd never post there again. Because I felt like I was actually getting to know some on a different level and could stay - Stephanie and I were actually talking couponing in a another thread and (I thought) putting our different philosophies on quitting smoking aside and Diane seemed pretty cool, too - but then I saw that new thread and the comments they made there. It really made me disappointed and very sad, becauase I thought we were all finally getting on the same page about saving lives over worrying about how we do it.
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Dutch said:
For Dutch, the quote was from a post made by me on ECF.
Thank you for you concern, and your point may be somewhat valid due to my age. However, I currently enjoy excellent physical health (even after 40+ years of smoking), and my doctor is quite pleased and very supportive of my e-cig use.
Long-term studies of snus users in Sweden have found no significant detrimental health effects to the use of tobacco in a reduced-harm, non-smoking form. So, I think I have very little to worry about with dying from nicotine use.
I wouldnt mind if they wanted to flame us up on other parts of the forum, but when they start the search and destroy mission on those that arent strong enough to defend themselves...THEIR OWN PEOPLE MIND YOU...Thats where I draw the line. Our section should be a safe haven for all e cig related discussion. PERIOD! They need to take a hike, and voice their opinions in their sections. They are simply bullying the board, and all that dont conform to their hitler mentality.
I dont want everyone to follow suite with me....I can handle being a target. They can flame me all they want, and I can retort quite well. We all contribute well, but in our own ways. I will work my way I guess, for now. But I'm open to discussion on a better way to put the fire out...but tucking my tail wont happen. They dont deserve to applaud running us off like the rest of em. I just feel bad for those that would really like to talk with one of us, with legitimate concerns.
Be back tonight
Be back tonight
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QSMB has morphed into a "Quit Nicotine" forum. Addiction to anything other than nicotine is OK because that is not a focus of the forum.
I know another group that would LOVE for smokers to use said "miracle" pill (especially for the rest of your life). I'll give you a hint: it's the same group that's petitioning the FDA for (approved) long term use of NRT.
(I know you already know this Kristin)
Next best? This is not next best its 1st bestCan't really imagine why. Sorry to hear that. I think that posting it here is the next best thing though.
Big Chief are you or were you in the military by chance? Just curious.
I could teach you how to do thatOn the plus side, I can't chain vape when I'm here. Can't hold the e-cig and type at the same time.
And on that note... I really AM going back to work!
no I'm kidding better that you don't I think but I do it frequently. Not sure if it would be possible with any model larger than an ego though.Someone should point out to Dutch we're all standing on our graves the minute we are born its just how fast and how painfully are we going to get there.
Wow...just wow
I'm afraid to ask.. what are you wowing about?
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