e-cigarette Wikipedia article needs help
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Truth, actually, as far as we know. Several months ago our own Dr Farsalinos told us to stop dry burning coils due to this exact thing - he said once the metals are heated to the point of glowing, the molecular structure changes, and it releases more toxins. I don't think many of us have listened tho, probably because we've yet to find a way to check for hot spots without dryfiring at least once. At least that's my reason. I still try it periodically tho, hoping we figure it out soon!
Beware of the Vapin Donuts. They explode : electronic_cigarette
Ceramics have been tried. They didn't work that great. They also leave the problem that now you are pretty much stuck buying from a high priced source, since the average person has no way to make a coil encased in ceramics. Your options are going to be limited, because a company isn't going to want to make thousands of different types of the same thing. This will further increase the costs. This limits the devices that can be used to heat the new ceramic elements. The more something is restricted, the more growth will be hindered. By hindering the growth, it will also discourage people from vaping. This can be twofold if the cost of heating elements is higher than the cost of cigarettes.
I think the reason we are seeing more new materials come out is in an effort to find something better than traditional kanthal.
True...I'd be more interested in trying to find out which metals can "take the heat better" so to speak... Yeah that's a total oversimplification but you know what I mean, to not release toxins et al when heated under normal vaping conditions and allow for dry-firing or test-firing without causing problems. I'm not overly concerned, I figure it can't possibly be as bad for me as the cigarettes were, but I am intrigued especially when Dr F mentions it. He's one of the few I trust to be real and not a propaganda preacher!
+1 on not cutting our noses off to spite our faces, tho, I don't want to see having to fork over many times as much money to get a mass produced "fix" that at that point would give so much profit to the companies that I'm sure other "problems" would be "found" (or created) that would then need to be "solved" ...and on and on we would go, back onto the ferris wheel that is shown so perfectly in the world of big tobacco. I'm not trying to sound like a conspiracy but, but part of what I love the most about vaping is that we can take responsibility for what we do, for learning/moving forward/creating/learning more...there's gotta be a way we can use that principle to move past this too, right?
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I'm also intrigued by the idea of someday moving past wicks/coils. I'm not an engineer and haven't truly thought this through, but a nebulizer comes to mind as a way to vaporize liquids without the same heating element we currently use. I'm not saying that'd work for us, but it does kind of illustrate what I mean by "moving past coils & wicks" lol
So tonight I think I had a conversation with (literally) the smartest man I will ever talk to in my entire life. And after he taught me about Global Warming, politely debunked my "It's Millions of Years of Heat Energy from The Sun Being Re-Released into the Atmosphere All At Once" theory that I've been nurturing for years. Anyways, he says he worked as an engineer for some major medical devices company (and it was NOT Medtronic, I'd remember that) somewhere semantically near "Pfizer" but it wasn't Pfizer it was someone else, pale, creamy pastels in light blue and light green, with occasional linings of gold, if you are interested, and I got the visual impression (I read in as many dimensions as there are in reality, and there's infinite) that he actually put his hands on components that might have been made from 20 different manufacturers, but they were all exactly produces as they were ordered, and on a microscopic scale, and this was 20 years ago or more, and in my mind I saw small, ceramic components that you could order by the hundreds in quantities on the order of $2.00 a piece, wholesale, after taxes and shipping costs, and whatever other countries refer to as "legal bribes". So when you are willing to drop $100 on the best Vaping Rig available (my term, and not necessarily theirs), wouldn't you drop an extra $20.00 to make certain the heating element didn't go out for at least 3 years, and it was guaranteed.
So someone just made $18.00. I'd like it to be me, but here, wth, I'll split it with you, as long as it gets me SOMETHING. And a deal is made. Capitalism Rules.
WHAT'S GOING TO BE HUGE:
Small, ceramic-coated heating elements, that will never release their toxic inner cores under normal, operating conditions (manufacturers cannot be held responsible for the consequences of using the product outside it's specified parameters, i.e, "No more than "X" voltage, no more than "Y" temperature, no more than "Z" wattage, etc...) The best way to succeed as an industry is to self-regulate faster than the government can legislate and control your industry, so it's the right thing to do for the industry, it's the right thing to do for Vapers/clients/customer base, right for manufacturer's (more money), right for retail vendors (more money, more safety, larger client base and less government interference and involvement).
Here are some links to give some sense of where I'm going with this, and it's possible that the exact thing is already available, it's just a matter of finding it, buy it, building and testing a prototype and then putting it on the retail market for sale:
Electronic Components & Supplies Market
http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en
Electronic Components | Mouser
And also, if anyone is interested enough to ask for help on the technical details of building an upgraded/modified vaping device, this forum is populated with experts that have detailed and specific knowledge of how to identify the best component and incorporate it into a pre-existing electric/electronic system:
Badcaps Forums - Salvation For Your Electronics!
Right. I define "moving forward" as fixing the problem before they "fix" the problem for you. They are going to use the presence of heavy metals in the vaping device's vapor to regulate and restrict access to those vaping devices, unless you get ahead of things, and solve the problem first. My inclination, if I were "King of the Vaping Community", is to issue an immediate ban on all vaping devices that did not have the metals in the heating element coated/encased in ceramic, and require all new vaping devices to come from the factory with these improved heating elements as a minimum quality standard. Anything less than that is considered unacceptable and should be shunned. Meaning, not sold, not promoted, not discussed in a positive light, always mentioning not only the real health risk this substandard method of manufacture will represent to the individual Vaper, but what economic risk this substandard manufacturing method represents to the entire industry. Self-regulate, or die.
Also, while I'm at it, I'd also recommend the industry set up it's own testing and release it's own findings, not just to serve as an accurate and trustworthy source of this information, and to act as a check and balance against the presumably biased and Big Pharma-funded testing, but also to serve as a warning to any biased interests that might contemplating biased, unfair, dishonest "scientific studies" in the future. It will solve problems before they even happen. One research paper I read specified the exact machine that was used to do the testing, and it sounded like a glorified printer. I think it was even made by HP. I'd be willing to bet that these gas spectra chromatography thingies are common, and that getting independent testing is simply a matter of paying a professional laboratory to do a job that they would consider to be "routine" (and not exotic).
I agree; the short opening summary is the most important thing when I read a wiki article on any .... let's say controversial topic. I specifically notice elements of bias whenever I read the opening.
Technically speaking, you're assuming the user would need to change coils.
It would be great if the metal of most of the coil were encased in ceramic and never needed changing, just cleaning in alcohol or ultrasonic cleaner or whatever.
The heating coils in my electric kettles don't need changing out all the time; usually it's something else goes wrong, probably the switch usually that would go bad but not the heating coil.
But practically there'd be other problems; to make it durable you'd want thicker wire, but for faster heatup, and usefull wattage range you'd want thinner wire. Plus the commercial bias would be to make a coil the user would need to keep replacing.
Bear with me. This is going to be a long one.
Honestly, no, I wouldn't buy the 20 dollar element. I don't care that it can last 3 years. With kanthal, i can always change the way it works. I don't want a one size fits all solution to e-cigs just like I don't want it for cars. Which is the one that we go with? A prius(high ohm, low vapor emission and low juice consumption), or a pickup(sub ohm coils that create much more vapor and go through much more juice)? What works good for some(high ohm coils for tootle puffers) doesnt work good for others(sub ohm vapers who want more out of their device). What way do you make the coil? I like twisted 26 gauge or 26 with 30g clapton coils in my RDAs. In my subtank mini, I like to rebuild the OCC heads with 5 wraps of 24g around a 3mm drill bit. While that is incredibly satisfying to me, other people don't care for it. Which crowd do you satisfy?
Even though those ceramic elements may have been made before, I highly doubt they were having to be cleaned often to remove sugars that were unable to be vaporized. When you are cleaning the elements, you are risking damaging them. If you damage them, I doubt that company is going to guarantee them for 3 years. This could potentially limit the flavors that could be used without reducing the lifespan, making fewer people willing to use them.
At the end of the day, I am willing to accept the risks associated with kanthal. Kanthal works great for what I want. It allows me to customize my vape. Some coils don't work well for some flavors(I have 3 flavors that I like that take totally different builds for my preference), and other times it just comes down to what mood I am in. Sometimes, I want to just casually vape(so we have 3 elements needed right here). Sometimes, I want to chuck some massive clouds(let's just assume I only need one more element here). If I have to buy 4 or 5 of those $20 elements just to be able to get my few favorite flavors the way I want them, I am already spending more than I will spend on kanthal in a few years. If I am going to be spending the same amount or more, I would rather be able to customize everything to my tastes and have exactly what I want.
I don't think the ceramic elements are going to be "huge" in the vaping world. Too many people have too many different preferences. When you factor in all the different preferences, you are going to be making a MASSIVE variety of elements. Even if those elements only cost 10 bucks, that is still a lot more than most people are spending on coils that they are building. For 20 bucks(the cost of two elements if they are only 10 bucks, or the cost of a single element if it is 20 bucks), I can get over 300 feet of kanthal. My coils typically use less than a foot of kanthal. These coils can last a couple months. For ease of use, let's just say they last a month, and I rebuild for all 6 of my RDAs once a month(I probably average more like 3 months when I factor in all of them). That means I am using 6 feet of kanthal a month. At that rate, my 300 feet of kanthal is going to last me a little over 4 years. If I have to use a few different elements just to find the vape I like, I am looking at several years worth of kanthal. Yes, I understand there are risks with the kanthal, but I am willing to live with those risks.
Kanthal is one of those things they would have a VERY hard time banning. It simply has too many industrial uses. They aren't going to ban cotton, either. E-cig manufacturers are going to see a massive problem with the ceramic elements, too. Many people like to have several different atomizers so they don't have to worry about cleaning everything each time they want to change flavors. If a person has 5 flavors, this means they are spending 100 bucks alone on the atomizers to be able to have multiple flavors at one time. This is going to put off most people from vaping.
Again, the coils in your electric kettle probably arent getting caked with caramelized sugar residue from flavors. Cleaning them may negatively impact the life.
As you said, the coil would need to run an excessively thin wire to heat up rapidly. This makes it more prone to damage or breaking. If they make them thicker and more durable, then you run into the problem you mentioned of a slow ramp up time and slow cool down time. You will also have to factor in a higher powered battery to drive them.
This has been on my mind since this thread started;
I think it noteworthy to emphasize that what we use as electronic cigarettes does not operate by combustion, although misoperation can cause combustion and is known as a dry hit or a burnt hit.
A cigarette operates by combustion, and material is burnt.
A dry content vaporizer operates by combustion, and material is burnt.
The contemporary 'electronic cigarette' uses the same technology as conventional fog machines by boiling a liquid.
Cigarettes, Electronic Cigarettes, and Fog machines:
1: Cigarette: a roll of usually shredded tobacco leaf which is lighted and combusts in air, the smoke of which the user inhales.
2: Electronic cigarette:
Commonly used (2015) to describe item#3 below - micro-fog-machines, however, the item known as 'dry content vaporizer' or 'dry herb vaporizer' can more aptly be described as electronic cigarette:
'dry content vaporizer'
uses an electrically powered coil to cause combustion of dry content which the user inhales.
3: Micro-fog-machines - commonly called 'electronic cigarettes' (2015):
uses an electronically powered coil to boil a liquid which produces a fog, usually by condensation of water droplets from the humidity in the air.
I think it noteworthy to emphasize that what we use as electronic cigarettes does not operate by combustion, although misoperation can cause combustion and is known as a dry hit or a burnt hit.
A cigarette operates by combustion, and material is burnt.
A dry content vaporizer operates by combustion, and material is burnt.
The contemporary 'electronic cigarette' uses the same technology as conventional fog machines by boiling a liquid.
Cigarettes, Electronic Cigarettes, and Fog machines:
1: Cigarette: a roll of usually shredded tobacco leaf which is lighted and combusts in air, the smoke of which the user inhales.
2: Electronic cigarette:
Commonly used (2015) to describe item#3 below - micro-fog-machines, however, the item known as 'dry content vaporizer' or 'dry herb vaporizer' can more aptly be described as electronic cigarette:
'dry content vaporizer'
uses an electrically powered coil to cause combustion of dry content which the user inhales.
3: Micro-fog-machines - commonly called 'electronic cigarettes' (2015):
uses an electronically powered coil to boil a liquid which produces a fog, usually by condensation of water droplets from the humidity in the air.
See, you read like I do. We all know that Wikipedia can be written or edited by "just anyone" and before we invest a significant amount of time into reading a full-on article, we first "toe the water" and look for indicators telegraphing profound bias, or minimally, we decide in advance of reading the article how much credibility to afford, how much faith we have in it's integrity and how much interest we have in paying attention to what it has to say. "You can't judge a book by it's cover", but you CAN judge a wikipedia article by it's lede.
And on your point of "controversy", I solve that one by prioritizing most general, most basic, most certain information first, and more specific, controversial, unfounded information later. The farther down you can push that stuff, the better it is for everyone, except for those pushing a particular POV (Point of View) that is not supported by the facts. Also note how the concepts behind the words "Neutral" and "Controversial" are at opposite ends of the spectrum. Trying to jam the "scary dangers" of vaping and e-cigarettes into the Lede is obvious POV-pushing and a legitimate ground for edit and revision.
Right up to the point where the government bans the manufacturing, importation and sale of any unregulated vaping devices, due to the toxic nature of their heating elements. Self-regulate, or die.
Cigalikes? I don't know of any mods with heating elements...
@Wallace_Frampton ...
I like where you're going with "self-regulate or die" -- my main thing is this: since there seem to be these issues y'all are discussing with ceramic, some (probably many) will simply ignore the point of safety in metal fumes. (Bear with me, @speedy_r6 I promise I'm not trolling you, I actually think most vapers share your POV, or else we'd have seen more reaction to Dr F et al months ago.) So to me, the logical thing to do is keep looking for another answer that would satisfy both sides. I mean, 20 years ago Kanthal coils and cotton wick "couldn't be done", right? I'm on a big info hunt for anything I can find out on how conductive metals react to heat. No, tests on vaping with different metals as coils haven't been done, but there are bits & pieces of info out there that can be pieced together and see if it reveals any paths to chase down. I also think TempControl may be promising, but I don't know enough about it to know if that's true, and it's getting a lot of attention right now so I don't feel much need to chase it LOL. Again, if we don't address things ourselves, others will, and I doubt any of us would like that future!
I like where you're going with "self-regulate or die" -- my main thing is this: since there seem to be these issues y'all are discussing with ceramic, some (probably many) will simply ignore the point of safety in metal fumes. (Bear with me, @speedy_r6 I promise I'm not trolling you, I actually think most vapers share your POV, or else we'd have seen more reaction to Dr F et al months ago.) So to me, the logical thing to do is keep looking for another answer that would satisfy both sides. I mean, 20 years ago Kanthal coils and cotton wick "couldn't be done", right? I'm on a big info hunt for anything I can find out on how conductive metals react to heat. No, tests on vaping with different metals as coils haven't been done, but there are bits & pieces of info out there that can be pieced together and see if it reveals any paths to chase down. I also think TempControl may be promising, but I don't know enough about it to know if that's true, and it's getting a lot of attention right now so I don't feel much need to chase it LOL. Again, if we don't address things ourselves, others will, and I doubt any of us would like that future!
No offense my friend, but you might want to consider another subject for your Wiki ambitions.
Firmly establishing the location of home plate doesn't apply if you're in the wrong ballpark.
Firmly establishing the location of home plate doesn't apply if you're in the wrong ballpark.
I'm not arguing about anyone else's personal preference. And a determined consumer can always pull the mandated ceramic-coated heating element out and replace it with whatever they want and if they get cancer or kidney disease due to heavy metal poison, well long live personal choice and individual freedom.
But the vaping devices should come "stock" from the factory with safe, toxin-free heating elements. You are not a representative sample of the entire vaping community, in fact you are way out their on the cutting edge of vaping technology. Not even a "beta tester", more like an "alpha tester". It's important to fail to appreciate how different you are from "most people", and most people aren't going to be pulling their vaping devices apart in order to Mod them, in fact most people want the specs they want already premanufactured so that they put some money down and get exactly what they want. And most people want a vaping experience that doesn't include the ingestion of heavy metals and toxins.
And, on the more "global" level, failing to restrict the manufacture of vaping devices so that they do not have heavy metals and toxins being inhaled (no matter how low the levels) will eventually invite government to force the change and during that interim, Big Pharma-influenced research will continue to warn people about the dangers and toxic nature of (unregulated, unrestricted) vaping and vaping devices, thereby putting downward pressure on the number of people taking up the activity as a healthier alternative to tobacco products (less money for the industry overall) until eventually it IS regulated, resulting in even less or even NO money to the open market, non-regulated industry. Again, Self-regulate, or die.
"Heating element" in this context was almost certainly meant for the coil...that heats the eliquid to vaporize the juice...playing dumb doesn't add anything to the discussion, it's just nitpicking terminology. Be glad somebody, themselves a pretty much non-vaper, who's going to write something that'll probably be read by thousands of non-vaping (but voting, and so in at least some way able to influence our lil subculture's future) people, is bothering to come here and discuss at all.
To me, there's only one side. There's the side of "keeping vaping as unregulated and uncontrolled as possible, so as to provide people with a cheaper, safer and more effective alternative to cigarettes, to as many people as possible". Meaning that, even the people that have the position that "I can do whatever I want" are not going to be inconvenienced or prevented from doing anything they want to do. There's nothing about self-regulation that prevents anyone from doing anything, however failing to self-regulate will invite every single kind of rule and enforcement mechanism you can imagine. Costs will go up, opportunities will go down, innovation will cease, it will be taxed at a higher rate, your insurance rates will go up, etc... Big Tobacco and Big Pharma are getting ready to join forces, and the only way to survive is to dodge the bullet and move faster towards solving problems than government can move.
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