E-cigs in NZ News

[Smix]

Was just reading the news here at work and came across this: Electronic cigarettes safer than tobacco, says ministry - National - NZ Herald News FYI The Herald is a major newspaper here in New Zealand and is part of the APN.

 

[Vocalek]

Someone needs to send this story to Ms. Sophie Dwyer at Queensland Health. She is putting out the story that e-cigarettes can be fatal. Why some reporter has not asked Ms Dwyer to specify the body count is beyond me. I guess reporters are just as lazy about digging for the truth as their counterparts in the US of A.

 

[Nicko]

You are right Vocalek. Reporters are lazy wherever you go. But maybe their editors are even more lazy.

 

[Nicko]

Was just reading the news here at work and came across this: Electronic cigarettes safer than tobacco, says ministry - National - NZ Herald News FYI The Herald is a major newspaper here in New Zealand and is part of the APN.

It's a really nice article, but I couldn't see any way of commenting. I want to congratulate the NZ Herald for this positive article.

 

[Nicko]

However, I'm confused on Dr Laugesan's stance. These days it's hard to know if he's in favor of their continued sale or against them. I honestly don't know what he wants.

 

[Vocalek]

From what he has told me, he wants them regulated for safety, but not taken off the market.

 

[Thulium]

From what he has told me, he wants them regulated for safety, but not taken off the market.

Translation: He wants BP funding for research and e-cigs are an easy subject.

That sounds like a good intention, but did he happen to explain what that means? How safe is safe enough? If they detect any contaminants in e-liquid, does that make them unsafe? If any products are less than 100% safe, what does he plan to do about it?

 

[Vocalek]

Translation: He wants BP funding for research and e-cigs are an easy subject.

That sounds like a good intention, but did he happen to explain what that means? How safe is safe enough? If they detect any contaminants in e-liquid, does that make them unsafe? If any products are less than 100% safe, what does he plan to do about it?

Here is what he told James:

ML: There is a clash also between the absolute safety of a cigarette substitute (in fact, no drug is 100% safe) and the relative safety of e-cigarettes compared with tobacco smoking. Regulators decree what is good for populations, and this can clash with fundamental rights of citizens to be able to buy any reasonably safe product that will diminish their risks of dying early from continuing use of smoking tobacco.

Government tobacco control agencies could assist by sitting down with medicine regulators, to balance these considerations, and produce relaxed safety regulations for fast acting nicotine products as proposed by the tobacco group of the Royal College of Physicians London recently.

The tobacco control community could assist by working with government health and research agencies, to fast track this product's research and development as the first of a new generation of possible substitutes to replace tobacco smoking. But one thing is clear - smokers need a whole generation of better products to provide their needs for safe nicotine, and the sooner these can be coaxed to market, the better.

Read more: Murray Laugesen: E Cigarette Interview

On the other hand, he has fears about nicotine poisoning:

Dr. Laugesen (Health New Zealand, 2009) recommends the use of sealed unopenable nicotine cartridges. Bottled nicotine or nicotine cartridges which can be opened by children pose a great hazard for accidental nicotine poisoning. 10 mg of nicotine can poison a child and 30-40 mg can poison an adult. Using liquid nicotine for a cheap refill is hazardous and accidental spillage can lead to nicotine poisoning. Tipping an ecigarette up can also lead to drainage of liquid nicotine onto the lips. We recommend that you always buy brands which use sealed refill cartridges to avoid the dangers of spillage and accidental nicotine poisoning.

Tobacco Harm Reduction Part Three: Electronic Cigarettes

BTW: So far, any funding he has received for research has not come from BP. It came from Ruyan.

 

[jtpjc]

There's that children argument again. Ever got a drop of eliquid in your mouth? Mmm, that certainly tasted good didn't it? You know what, let's finish the whole bottle. I'm sure we won't vomit. After all, it's strawberries!

 

[Thulium]

On the other hand, he has fears about nicotine poisoning

Which is it? Fears about product safety or fears about nicotine poisoning? If e-liquids or cartridges contain a dangerous poison, I don't see how that has any relation to hardware safety or effectiveness.

I sincerely appreciate Dr. Laugeson's contributions to research in Tobacco Harm Reduction, but if the greatest risk posed by e-cigarettes is that cartridges might leak or children might try to drink e-juice, why do we need to waste time testing e-cigarettes? If we don't know enough about pharmaceutical nicotine to decide if childproof containers should be mandatory or optional or if liquid nicotine strengths need to be limited, perform the "missing" toxicology and regulate accordingly. Is there some evidence that tobacco in liquid form is unacceptably dangerous (ie. is there any truth to the claim that 1ml of 1% e-liquid can kill someone within 5 minutes)?

 

[Vocalek]

Actually, we don't know all that much about pharmaceutical nicotine. Most of the research has been done by big pharma and they haven't shared much of the details. People who work with tobacco sometimes get nicotine poisoning. I would assume it happens with people who use stronger concentrations for insect control. So there is a basis for the concern. However, I think Dr. Laugesen (one of the very first researchers into e-cigarette safety) may have been overly concerned about nicotine that is diluted down to 2 percent or less of a solution. There havent been any human toxicology studies to determine how large a concentration of nicotine solution could poison you via skin absorption. But as most of us here know skin spills of, 16, 18, 24 mg (1.6% to 2.4%) concentrations don't phase us at all. In fact I know one e-cig user doesn't wash a spill off her finger--she licks it off. And yet, she lives! And how many of us got a mouth full of juice from those leaky first models of e-cigs? I did. And yet I live. In fact I didn't even get the least little bit sick. In fact, the only time I ever had nicotine poisoning bad enough to lose my lunch happened when I accidentally swallowed a small piece of a Commit lozenge.

The argument can be made that child-proof packaging seems to work just fine with bleach and drain cleaner--so why treat e-cig liquid any differently?

 

[jtpjc]

In fact I know one e-cig user doesn't wash a spill off her finger--she licks it off. And yet, she lives! And how many of us got a mouth full of juice from those leaky first models of e-cigs? I did. And yet I live. In fact I didn't even get the least little bit sick.

Anecdotal evidence. We all know that doesn't count, even if it happened to a million of us. Now, if a scientist, let's say a doctor, states that ONE child COULD get sick from eliquid, that is true science.

 

[Thulium]

I wonder if they will try to ban these too?

They have 150mg of nicotine in each one! #RunForTheHills