E-Cigs will never be Legal

[Gemini_Lightning]

Follow the money trail, the FDA, Big tobacco, and Big Pharma are all in business together. After doing extensive research, I found this information to be interesting:

1) 20% of US deaths are related to smoking
2) 20% of the US economy is in Health care!
3) 7-15% of people who try Pharm cessation devices are actually successful
4) Texas alone in 2007 took in $1.2 Billion from tobacco taxes.

Here's my conclusion (feel free to add your own): If people quit tobacco smoking, they will get healthy. This will hurt the health care economy. If people quit smoking using the e-cig, it will hurt tobacco taxes/health care and big pharma.

Unfortunately, the United States of America is a bottom line business, and PV's cut into the bottom line across three sectors (pharma, healthcare, tobacco taxes). Johnson and Johnson, maker of patch, gum, inhaler (I believe), rakes in huge profits while smokers become ex-smokers (for a short time) then these ex-ex smokers bounce back to smoking to feed the tobacco taxes and health care system (20% of all deaths).

This is a multi-trillion dollar enterprise. No matter where the carts were made, or what was in the carts, the FDA would have found SOMETHING wrong with them (ex.. drug delivery device, etc..) People have to smoke, and people have to get sick from smoking. No matter what. From a human welfare perspective, it's sick and twisted. From a business perspective, it's necessary.

Once people do their own research, I'd love to hear alternative explanations.

 

[Liscab]

Well the goverment say (FDA) that they have to afford most of the cost of the smoker related disease, but IMO if we have not sick people we don't need those people who tries to save the goverment money (their pay check)

 

[dragonpuff]

Follow the money trail, the FDA, Big Tobacco, and Big Pharma are all in business together. After doing extensive research, I found this information to be interesting:

1) 20% of US deaths are related to smoking
2) 20% of the US economy is in Health care!
3) 7-15% of people who try Pharm cessation devices are actually successful
4) Texas alone in 2007 took in $1.2 Billion from tobacco taxes.

Here's my conclusion (feel free to add your own): If people quit tobacco smoking, they will get healthy. This will hurt the health care economy. If people quit smoking using the e-cig, it will hurt tobacco taxes/health care and big pharma.

Unfortunately, the United States of America is a bottom line business, and PV's cut into the bottom line across three sectors (pharma, healthcare, tobacco taxes). Johnson and Johnson, maker of patch, gum, inhaler (I believe), rakes in huge profits while smokers become ex-smokers (for a short time) then these ex-ex smokers bounce back to smoking to feed the tobacco taxes and health care system (20% of all deaths).

This is a multi-trillion dollar enterprise. No matter where the carts were made, or what was in the carts, the FDA would have found SOMETHING wrong with them (ex.. drug delivery device, etc..) People have to smoke, and people have to get sick from smoking. No matter what. From a human welfare perspective, it's sick and twisted. From a business perspective, it's necessary.

Once people do their own research, I'd love to hear alternative explanations.

I understand what you're saying. However, a few points i wanna make:

1) People get sick anyway. There are millions of illnesses from a myriad of different causes that industries can profit from. Think about the infuenza vaccine, for example: look at how many industries profit from this. There's a price for the development of the vaccine, the fluid its suspended in, the vials that contain it, the needles that inject it, etc. There are many diseases that are just naturally there which turn a massive profit. In fact, i believe your above argument does better to explain why many diseases are only repeatedly treated rather than cured, but that's another topic...

2) Why go out of your way to make people sick when you can just convince them that they already are? Imagine how many millions of children were given hundreds of dollars worth of medication for an attention span problem they didn't really have, or how many millions of people take antidepressants when they would do just as well with therapy. Have you seen these commercials now where they describe symptoms of bipolar disorder in such vague terms that it sounds like anyone could have it, only to suggest that it should be treated with a heavy drug that was previously only available to schizophrenics (Abilify)? Well now this company can rest assured that their drug will treat far more people than just those who have such rare conditions, thanks to their advertising. All they have to do is convince people that they're sicker than they really are.

3) Why can't big pharma and big tobacco come up with their own versions of the e-cig? Big tobacco would make a killing selling a vaporizer that looks like a cigarette but evaporates a liquid tobacco extract for inhalation and doesn't emit any second-hand smoke. Big pharma would also make a huge profit selling these as (you guessed it) step-down nicotine cessation devices. I think the issue here is lost profits, but not because of health care: BP and BT see a product that is doing so well and they're not getting a dime for it.

But don't worry; as i stated in another thread, after the ban has been in place for awhile we will be able to buy FDA-approved Pfiser vaporized nicotine devices at Walmart... but only at Walmart at first cuz they'll want a cut of it too

 

[BenJammin]

As true today as it was when Mark Twain said it: We have the best government money can buy but be thankful that we don't get all the government that we're paying for.
They aren't taking the "long view". Not sure of the figure, but it's something like 400,000 smoking related deaths per year. How many of them died before retirement age? Denying the government of all those years of revenue. With more of us around, and living longer think of the trillions of dollars we would all be forking over. But this is the new America after all, it's all about the quick buck. And since all that money would be going into the general fund and not to special interests, why should the special interests care?

 

[Hurricane Eric]

I dunno I think if they can sell weed pipes, speed pipes, and crack pipes and just call them whatever it is they call them I'm sure we'll be able to get our PV's it's only the juice we might have to worry about. Hey there's another idea anyone try putting e-juice in a speed pipe?

 

[AGNES PEACOCK]

Darn.., I cant find the thread now. But another member found this ad for a pocket vapor bulb from 1936 this week. I wonder if it will be of any help in our fight to keep our PV's.

I did manage to keep a link to another site that had the ad. This is it: Pocket Vapor Bulb Operates Like Flashlight

Very interesting.

 

[Pugzley]

"Unfortunately, the United States of America is a bottom line business, and PV's cut into the bottom line across three sectors (pharma, healthcare, tobacco taxes)."

You left one out, the morticians. Of course they are not a hugely organized conglomerate like pharma, healthcare and the taxman.

When you have Corporatism, like we do in America (big business merging with big government, to meet a common goal) what you have set forth in your post is not only possible, but highly likely. They do not like competition and just think of the cottage industry of suppliers that they will destroy on their treck to illegalize and demonize along the way.

I also agree with the poster who said we will be able to buy the ecigs from Pfizer etal at some point. But I am sure we'll be told to "ask your doctor" in one of those sickening ads on tv and have to get a friggin' prescription for it, then march to the pharmacy like good little sheep to get it filled at some ungodly inflated price.

After all the crap the FDA has approved that has and is killing people, I think I'll take my chances with my Copper and liquid even from China. Remember Vioxx! And a mulititude of other drugs they've had to pull off the market.

Personally, I think they're a bunch of evil and greedy mofos and would sell their grandma on the street to make a buck, if they could get away with it.

Or maybe big tobacco will come up with the liquid, big pharma will come up with the device or vice versa or maybe they'll just leave out big tobacco altogether... the FDA will approve it, it will require a prescription and a doctor's visit to obtain and the state will tax it like tobacco. There... all of them are covered and no one loses, except the user.

 

[surbitonPete]

'Everything' is controlled by the need for 'PROFIT'..... Every companies goal is to keep on increasing profits. If you sell medical drugs then the last thing you want is for people to be healthy! If you are a government making a lot of PROFIT from tobacco taxes then the last thing you want is for people to have an untaxed alternative. Unfortunately even our e-cig retailers cannot be 100 per cent ethical because they have no choice and must be able to profit from selling e-cigs. The only way to have a better world is to support the ideas of the people in my sig line.

 

[Closet Toker]

(NaturalNews) Poisoning from prescription drugs has risen to become the second-largest cause of unintentional deaths in the United States, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

In its Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report, researchers found that deaths from prescription drugs rose from 4.4 per 100,000 people in 1999 to 7.1 per 100,000 in 2004.

This increase represents a jump from 11,000 people to almost 20,000 in the span of five years.

Mike Adams, a consumer health advocate and outspoken critic of pharmaceutical companies, said that the drug industry is freely killing Americans.
"The entire drug industry, including the monopolistic drug giants and their FDA co-conspirator, has clearly become the single greatest threat to the health and safety of the American people," Adams said. "And yet the FDA continues to push more drugs onto more Americans than ever before, all while pretending these drugs are safe and effective when, in reality, they are neither. Today's pharmaceutical industry is a massive fraud being perpetrated against the American people, propped up by illegal trade practices, monopolistic behavior and outright criminal behavior on the part of the FDA."

 

[Gemini_Lightning]

I understand what you're saying. However, a few points i wanna make:

1) People get sick anyway. There are millions of illnesses from a myriad of different causes that industries can profit from. Think about the infuenza vaccine, for example: look at how many industries profit from this. There's a price for the development of the vaccine, the fluid its suspended in, the vials that contain it, the needles that inject it, etc. There are many diseases that are just naturally there which turn a massive profit. In fact, i believe your above argument does better to explain why many diseases are only repeatedly treated rather than cured, but that's another topic...

2) Why go out of your way to make people sick when you can just convince them that they already are? Imagine how many millions of children were given hundreds of dollars worth of medication for an attention span problem they didn't really have, or how many millions of people take antidepressants when they would do just as well with therapy. Have you seen these commercials now where they describe symptoms of bipolar disorder in such vague terms that it sounds like anyone could have it, only to suggest that it should be treated with a heavy drug that was previously only available to schizophrenics (Abilify)? Well now this company can rest assured that their drug will treat far more people than just those who have such rare conditions, thanks to their advertising. All they have to do is convince people that they're sicker than they really are.

3) Why can't big pharma and big tobacco come up with their own versions of the e-cig? Big tobacco would make a killing selling a vaporizer that looks like a cigarette but evaporates a liquid tobacco extract for inhalation and doesn't emit any second-hand smoke. Big pharma would also make a huge profit selling these as (you guessed it) step-down nicotine cessation devices. I think the issue here is lost profits, but not because of health care: BP and BT see a product that is doing so well and they're not getting a dime for it.

But don't worry; as i stated in another thread, after the ban has been in place for awhile we will be able to buy FDA-approved Pfiser vaporized nicotine devices at Walmart... but only at Walmart at first cuz they'll want a cut of it too

1) You bring up some good points. Why not profit from other "diseases"? The Flu vaccine is a great example of a generated crisis that can reap millions of dollars; however, nothing is as steady and consistent as cancer, specifically cancer related to smoking. This is the cash cow. Unless something comes along to take its place, cancer will NEVER be cured by modern medicine. Check out this chart here of common cancers and notice how smoking props up almost the entire thing.

2) I can't agree with you more. When I was a kid, ADD and ADHD were called "daydreaming" and "imagination." Both were considered very healthy. Now, this lack of attention is a disease, a manufactured one at that, but the worst part is the general population buying into it. I can not believe parents agree to medicate children. Change the diet, increase exercise, stimulate the mind, anything but popping pills. These pills are cash cows for Big Pharma.... but they don't help Big Tobacco or the Health Care industry like smoking does.

3) Maybe someday Big Pharma will come up with a PV that people can use with a Doctor's prescription. However, be careful when it comes to the actual safety of the device. Remember, Health Care needs to be in on a cut of the action. If people are getting healthy... health care suffers. Here's another interesting article on how Health Care Props Up the US Economy. If health care suffers, does the entire US economy suffer?


Again, be careful of the FDA approved devices as they will probably contain some toxic element to keep people sick, much like side effects from prescription drugs. Al we can do is refuse to give the FDA any power over our lives. I refuse to recognize the FDA as an authority; moreover, I will do what is best for my mind, body, and soul no matter what rulings or laws they put in place. We must move forward from here. This means no going back to tobacco because that's exactly what they (Tobacco/Pharma/Health Care) want to hear.

I appreciate your thoughtful response: stay well.

 

[Sevenchan]

All this stuff about corporatism is absolutely true. I just read "Methland" by Nick Reding which I can highly recommend, an expose of how Big Agro effectively caused the .... plague in Middle America. And for us vapers, the icing of irony on the cake is:

Big Business is still EXTREMELY inefficient.

Just think: Nicotine is as addictive as ..... Yet it does not stop people from living productive lives. Smoking kills, nicotine does not. E-cigs should be Big Business's ideal product. They should be pushing them hard at the whole population to get more people hooked, forcing us to pay through the nose for safe PVs manufactured by Pfizer and taxing us to hell and back for safe juice manufactured by Altria or RJ Reynolds. That way, Big Pharma, Big Tobacco, and Washington Inc. would all get a slice of a pie that would be bigger than ever before, as more people would vape than ever smoked, without the health concerns. If US corporatism was efficient, that's what they'd do!

Unfortunately (?) this is an INEFFICIENT corporatist state, so vapers are going to be crushed between the rock of the status quo and the hard place of anti-smoker media hysteria.

JMO

Edit: Yeah, what Dragonpuff said in his/her third point

 

[dragonpuff]

Honestly, if either big pharma or big tobacco get ahold of these for development, i would MUCH rather it be big tobacco, because then we can be certain of two things:
1) They will NOT reduce nic levels to be below any reasonable efficacy; they do want to keep us hooked, right?
2) They will make sure that these are affordable so people actually BUY them; whereas if big pharma sells them as a medical device, then (as pugzley pointed out) they will be initially available by prescription only for some ungodly price, and people will still buy them because they are so desperate to quit smoking.

I really don't believe the entire medical industry is intent on keeping us sick for profit (as most people who work in the medical field do so because they genuinely care), but i am certain big pharma is, and who do you think is holding the puppet strings on the entire medical industry?

My major point in my above post is that i simply don't think any of these organizations are beholden to cigarettes alone for profit; they have many other ways to make their money. They are simply taking advantage of what's already there (especially big pharma).

As for the FDA? From what i can see, they have no authority to make law, only to enforce it. They are just a gateway that allows only approved drugs on the market. The only way to change the way the FDA conducts its business is to change the laws that bind it.

That said, under current law, all testing for a new drug is to be paid for by the company who produces it, and there are no laws governing oversight of the testing process. The result? By the time the FDA sees the final results of the study, all incriminating parts are taken out so that all the FDA sees is a glimmering ray of sunshine instead of all the nasties (i know this from research i've done into how studies were conducted on antidepressants). ''Remember, if you really want to quit smoking, chantix is both successful and safe, according to the FDA.'' Truthfully speaking, the FDA only sees what's right in front of it and makes a decision on that basis. It's just a gateway. They have no legal jurisdiction other than that which has been handed to them, they cannot make their own rules.

Great world we live in, right? I sure hope the times are a'changin'.

 

[chayce]

The more I wrap my head around it, the more I realize that E-cigs will never be legal. This is because Alcohol and Tobacco would not be legal today if they were not grandfathered in place. Imagine the FDA approving any recreational drug today. We have given them the right to control anything that can be classified as a drug, so now we face the consequences.

 

[premiume]

[FONT="]Electronic cigarette is give lot of benifits, people are save their money by e-cigs.
And no side effect as compare to real cigarette and you can see that there are lot of flaverous are available for smokeres and low nicotine leval so i think is today not legal but after the day of success its approve.
[/FONT]

 

[Snarkyone]

Any rational adult knows to follow the money whenever there's some controversial product like this. Who is making it, and sometimes like in the case of E-Cigs who ISN'T MAKING it are the ones to look out for. Why you ask? Just as it has been stated before, America is about business interest merging with government, and don't think for a minute that the government doesn't care about having money. If you don't think this system is broken not just in America but on a global scale then you are either foolish or deluding yourself.

 

[Nestran]

Don't forget that there is a player that should be on our side, health care insurers. If you stop smoking, you reduce illness which increases profit for health care insurers. You don't pay for health care coverage based on how frequently you need it so the less you use it, the more they make.

Now, oddly, even the health care insurers are taking a stance against the ecig, mine did anyway. they are ok with the pharma products though.

Wait and see what amazing new product hits the shelves from pharma...

Nestran

 

[Pav]

The more I wrap my head around it, the more I realize that E-cigs will never be legal. This is because Alcohol and Tobacco would not be legal today if they were not grandfathered in place. Imagine the FDA approving any recreational drug today. We have given them the right to control anything that can be classified as a drug, so now we face the consequences.

Maybe, maybe not. Marijuana is slowly moving towards legalization in the US.

And Alcohol was illegal for awhile until they realized you just weren't going to keep people from drinking and prohibition was a joke.

 

[frightline]

That's the most realistic evaluation of this whole thing.
Pretty much on track with what i was thinking.So with this being said,it sounds like smoking analogs is better for the economy...F#$ the economy then!!!
Nice job on approving CHANTIX!!
It is really easy to quit with chantix because it causes you to commit suicide.And we all know how hard it is to smoke...WHEN YOU ARE DEAD!!!
I am almost on the 6 month mark being 100% analog free!!
I am not going to quit vaping!I am not going back to analogs!
We are at an impass!
Remember this quote"People should not be afraid of their government,The government should be afraid of their people!!"--"V"

 

[suparstar11]

seems like some deep corruption to to me, thats sad ..

 

[Devious]

So when they legalize marijauna, how long do you think it will be until we can buy marijuana e-juice in the US? }

Reality is for those that lack imagination...