FDA Economic Impact Analysis

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zoiDman

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Now, the concern seems to be the possibility of regulation pricing small vendors out of the market through financially crippling costs of compliance. If the FDA succumbs to the "protect the children" cry, we might have to kiss dessert and candy flavors goodbye. No more caramel and vanilla in your RY4?

It was a Double Edged Sword.

Being a "tobacco Product" was the Lesser of the Two Evils. But it brought It's Own problems.

---

Pricing Out small Vendors? I don't think that is a Possibility. I think it is going to be more of a Given.

The Restriction of Flavors isn't the End of the World. People can Always Add food flavoring. A hassle for some perhaps. But not the End of the World.

What Would be the End of the World is if Bottled e-Liquids and Nicotine Base was not Allowed to be sold to End Users.

Funny how the Canned Answer by Many People when Asked about FDA Regulations is... "I'm not worried. I'll just to DIY if I have to."

I wish that they would stop and Consider that DIY ONLY works if you can buy Nicotine Base to do it.
 

wv2win

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pg 36

"The estimated cost of premarket tobacco applications for electronic cigarettes is summarized in Table 21. We assume in this analysis that there will not be any premarket applications for other types of products subject to the proposed rule.

Table 21 Costs for Premarket Tobacco Applications (Electronic Cigarettes or Other Novel Tobacco Products)

.................................First 24 months Lower Bound.....First 24 months Medium....First 24 months Upper Bound
Number of applications.............20........................................50..................................80
Time for submission (hours)......5,016...................................5,016..............................5,016
Total cost ($)..........................6,671,079.............................16,677,698.......................26,684,317

Kent, if you were showing this to a local B & M, how would you translate it to an estimated cost for them?
 

Jman8

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In my reading of this document, it has (like many documents) 2 parts to it. The "why" are we doing this and once that is established the "what" with various scenarios. I've reviewed posts in this thread and most, if not all, are dealing with the "what." I see no way to look at the "what" and not be, at least a little bit, nervous going forward if you are one who is immersed in vape culture, and/or politically aware vaper.

Yet, the why is not something to ignore and is taking whatever was ambiguous in the main proposal and making it less ambiguous (apart from the science stuff, which is arguably most important data of them all).

This document is written because FDA had to submit it as a matter of federal policy. As stated on p.6 of the document:
The Regulatory Flexibility Act requires agencies to analyze regulatory options that would minimize any significant impact of a rule on small entities. FDA has determined that this proposed rule would have a significant economic impact on a substantial number of small entities.

It is written because FDA knows the policy will impact small businesses, and thus has to do a huge CYA which is what this report is addressing.

IMO, everything that is of relevance for the comment period, and how consumers and (mostly) small eCig vendors ought to be responding to the main proposal, is found on p.6 and 7 of this document. If not quite seeing why that matters, than the "what" section from p.8 and onward could possibly serve as motivation as to why.

I don't currently see any quick, easy peasy way to overcome the economics of the main proposal, but do think it will be challenged based on how FDA has worded its version of why on pages 6 and 7. Plus main proposal will be addressed scientifically based on how it chose to word language and invite comments, in that document.

I do think, as a layperson / consumer, that the economics must change. And I think they will change, but it will depend on how consumers and advocates stand up and respond to this proposal. If not able to get what we want right now, then I do see things going very dark for awhile, a black market being open for business (and doing very well) and that signaling to next political generation that, hmmm, maybe we should've changed the economics for small businesses way back in 2014. As they didn't we can, and thus regulation of the reasonable kind that kills the black market, but meets demand, will be in place.

In reviewing info on the "Regulatory Flexibility Act," which, like most things government, has umpteen subchapters and tangents, I found this link on SBA site that I do think is helpful going forward in addressing what FDA can and can't do with it's main proposal. Perhaps that or information just like it, could help on this issue. And perhaps that is just technical enough to not be of use to average vaper during this open period of response to the main proposal. I intend on reviewing that SBA document a few times, as I think it is 'part of' the answer.

The economics of FDA proposed regulations as that will impact small businesses absolutely must change. If it does not, demand will not disappear. Business for innovative products, beyond what the big guys produce, will not disappear. For sure they might take a huge setback, based on how this generation chose to address things, but I don't see it disappearing anytime in next 30 years, at least.

I truly believe, now is the time to step up our game, and to adopt an attitude of "we can do this" or "we will win." If you have doubts, then welcome to the club, call yourself normal, but then get back in the game where you realize you do matter, and your purchasing power will be exercised regardless of how short-sighted fools (i.e ANTZ or tobacco prohibitionist) wish to spin this.

We've been mentally and emotionally preparing for this for years. We do not fight alone. We have science on our side, and resources that are available to help. We can, and inevitably will, win this.
 

Katya

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twgbonehead

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You are right, MD. If there's no nicotine in the kit, then there'd be no reason to require inspection or licensing and vendors shouldn't have to present their products for testing.

Sorry, but the FDA has explicitly stated that things like cigarette papers, filters, and pre-formed tubes, as well as flavored hookah charcoal ARE "Tobacco products" which are under their control. None of these contain nicotine or tobacco.

Trying to apply logic to the situation is futile. The proposed regs are what they are, and are (deliberately) vague. For example: Hookah tobacco and charcoal ARE explicitly included. Hookah tongs are explicitly excluded. Why no mention of hookah pipes themselves? The answer is that they intend to own these as well, they just don't want to say it. (I must confess I'm a bit ignorant about hookas, what they are and how they work, but this was a clear example in their regs. The stuff regarding e-cigarettes is much murkier and more vague).

I repeat: LOGIC IS FUTILE! It has no more bearing on the situation than science does.
 

DC2

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If you haven't done so Already, maybe now would be a Good Time to leave a Comment here?

Regulations.gov
I would beg everyone, even those that have some sort of issue with CASAA, to at least wait to see what CASAA has to say.

If a person doesn't like all of it, at least they can use some of it.
And there are likely to be tips on how to go about things that should be helpful to all.
 
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Katya

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I repeat: LOGIC IS FUTILE! It has no more bearing on the situation than science does.

Exactly right!

Favorite argument against vaping, "PG is in antifreeze."

Yes, it is--but it's added to antifreeze to make it LESS TOXIC.

But nobody mentions it.

:facepalm:

I give up.

I'm going to wait for CASAA's call to action...
 

zoiDman

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I would beg everyone, even those that have some sort of issue with CASAA, to at least wait to see what CASAA has to say.

If a person doesn't like all of it, at least they can use some of it.
And there are likely to be tips on how to go about things that should be helpful to all.

It's almost been a week since the FDA made their Announcement.

Do you know if CASAA has a mentioned when they might make their Announcement? Or outline what their game plan is going to be?
 

Katya

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Talyon

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K..so..they clearly have no problem with decimating e-cig businesses and limiting choices :mad:

No no no no, the FDA are good righteous people trying to protect us, they are simply giving vendors an EXIT.

I would rather be exited then fired...... I think?

It's like up here they came up with the term Revenue Tool to replace The word TAX.

Sounds much better eh?
 

Kent C

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Kent, if you were showing this to a local B & M, how would you translate it to an estimated cost for them?

Going by my post just above, which explains what the UPC represent - components - there would be a need for a 'application' (form to fill out by vendors) for each of their products or UPC's (component products not assembled into a kit). So FDA gives a range - what they call a 'bound' - from low - 20 applications needed, to high 80 applications needed and estimate the cost on the low end to be @$6.6 million dollars and at the high end at @$26.6 million.
 

sonicdsl

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Going by my post just above, which explains what the UPC represent - components - there would be a need for a 'application' (form to fill out by vendors) for each of their products or UPC's (component products not assembled into a kit). So FDA gives a range - what they call a 'bound' - from low - 20 applications needed, to high 80 applications needed and estimate the cost on the low end to be @$6.6 million dollars and at the high end at @$26.6 million.

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pamdis

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Going by my post just above, which explains what the UPC represent - components - there would be a need for a 'application' (form to fill out by vendors) for each of their products or UPC's (component products not assembled into a kit). So FDA gives a range - what they call a 'bound' - from low - 20 applications needed, to high 80 applications needed and estimate the cost on the low end to be @$6.6 million dollars and at the high end at @$26.6 million.

I read this as they figure they will have between 20 and 80 applications. Really?? That's all? They really have no clue about the current market. Probably looked at the big cigalike companies, figured they would each put in a couple, and done.

So take the lower dollars and divide by 20, or the bigger dollars and divide by 80. You get around $334,000 per application.
 

zoiDman

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Going by my post just above, which explains what the UPC represent - components - there would be a need for a 'application' (form to fill out by vendors) for each of their products or UPC's (component products not assembled into a kit). So FDA gives a range - what they call a 'bound' - from low - 20 applications needed, to high 80 applications needed and estimate the cost on the low end to be @$6.6 million dollars and at the high end at @$26.6 million.

Just a Quick Question:

How "Significantly" has an Atomizer changed since the 1st Atomizer you used?

Seems that the Concept of the Coil and the Wick Hasn't changed Much.

Because there is Another Pathway then the Costly Application Process you have described to FDA Approval.
 

zoiDman

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So take the lower dollars and divide by 20, or the bigger dollars and divide by 80. You get around $334,000 per application.

Is the 300K based on Roughly 5,000 Hours of Studies? If one study is down on Brand "X" 510 Atomizer, does another 5,000 Hours of Evaluation need to be done on Brand Y's 510 Atomizer?
 
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