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Eliquid approval

Discussion in 'General Vaping Discussion' started by Kate, Apr 22, 2009.

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  1. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Right to Vape has been discussing a scheme to check and approve eliquid for consumers. The idea is similar to the approval process used by organisations such as The Vegetarian Society which checks ingredients using their own criteria and grants the use of their approval symbol for compliant foods. Vegsoc Approved Approval by the Veg Soc reassures consumers that the products meet the independent standards of a consumer organisation, For an annual fee the producer gets independent testing and approval, the use of the 'approved' trademark on packaging and marketing materials, some product promotion by the society, links, inclusion in a product database and the general goodwill and trust generated by a reputable consumer group.

    What RtV are considering is testing by an independent lab of ingredients and nicotine levels and the production of a toxicology report. This is hoped to confirm that the product is not contaminated, contents are as described and there are thought to be no unexpected health risks from inhaling. Another aspect of approval by RtV would be to do with packaging meeting good standards.

    The most efficient way to bring reliable products to the market is to have manufacturers join the scheme and have all flavours and formulas assessed. Any distributor of a particular product which has been assessed and found compliant would be entitled to the benefits of RtV approval.

    So we want to connect and generate interest with manufacturers of eliquid. We want them to pay us an annual fee for approval of each formula which they then could sell as approved by RtV.

    There are some things I'd like further ideas on if anyone would like to share their thoughts.

    • Selling approval by RtV is going to depend on the credibility value of that approval. How do we maximise the profile and reliability of the group and testing system to generate trust and consumer support?
    • We can't sell a scheme to manufacturers without a good idea of what it will entail and how much it will cost. Does anyone have any expertise in testing, chemistry, or any relevant field who could offer advice on how to determine what process we need to set up for our system? Please have a look at this thread to see some information we already have - Eliquid Tests - what are we looking for?
    • What do you think is the best way to approach manufacturers once we have an idea of what we are proposing? Traders who deal with and already have a relationship with particular makers might be a good introduction ... or should RtV approach the manufacturers cold and try to build a relationship from scratch?

    Any constructive thoughts on any points here are greatly appreciated, thanks.
  2. praga

    praga Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Dec 30, 2008
    Port Arthur, Texas
    RtV has my support.

    Let me know when you have a proposal ready and I'll pass it on to the manufacturers that I deal with.
  3. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Thanks very much Brandon, I'll be sure to let you know when we have something worth presenting.
  4. J W in Texas

    J W in Texas Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Jan 5, 2009
    Arlington, TX

    I would be willing to donate to this. I was also wondering if anyone has contacted Johnson Creek directly regarding their process and what testing they perform. They are the only company that I know of that is outside China, being U.S. based and they have some paperwork with the FDA. I know it isn't much paperwork but I think they began a process.

    Just a thought...

    Posted at RTV too.
  5. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Thanks JW.

    Just a word to the wise - thanks very much for your offer of cash help but don't make any donations to anybody until you're sure they are representing the community and not vested interests and they have a proper set up to manage charitable funds.

    RtV is still not organised enough to manage money and to be honest I don't think it needs much more than enough to run a website at the moment so it's not a big issue yet.

    Johnson Creek have not published any research and are only registered with the FDA under terrorism provisions, nothing to do with eliquid or standards of production.

    There's a thread at RtV about where different manufacturers are based. Some are in China, some in Europe and JC is in North America. Hopefully we will be able to approach all of them when we have worked out some proposals.
  6. moogguy

    moogguy New Member

    Mar 27, 2009
    I think this is a good idea...I can't offer any help, only my support....
  7. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    ... and a thread bump, thanks ;)
  8. strayling

    strayling Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 25, 2009
    Seattle, USA
    If/when this takes off I'll make a point of only purchasing from suppliers who have the RtV Kate Mark.
  9. franklyspeaking

    franklyspeaking Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 17, 2009
    Arlington, Texas
    Very good idea! I offer to help in any way I can.
  10. franklyspeaking

    franklyspeaking Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 17, 2009
    Arlington, Texas
    Some things that I think could add value to RTV are some high quality reviews and such. A website where both the hardware and juice are unbiasedly reviewed and rated on a thorough scale. I have a full broadcast quality HD video rig and would be more than willing to shoot these reviews. What has held me back from doing so yet is the development of a good review structure. Anyway, I think a site that offered a comprehensive breakdown of models and offered quality reviews with some production value behind them would mean something. A super e-cig wikapedia of sorts...
  11. QueenInNC

    QueenInNC Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Feb 21, 2009
    Charlotte, NC USA
    Me too, Kate!
  12. franklyspeaking

    franklyspeaking Ultra Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 17, 2009
    Arlington, Texas
    I think a field of dreams approach is probably a sound one. If you build it they will come... If we could build a categorized site that we could point these manufacturers to then I think the perceived value would be high and worth their effort.

    The testing I think is the big question. What parameters are there for eliquid testing?!?!?!? I don't have the foggiest... :rolleyes:

    SABOTEUR Super Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 11, 2009
    Baltimore MD USA
    Kind of like Consumer Reports, huh?

    I like it! :thumb:
  14. Zendruid

    Zendruid Full Member

    Apr 4, 2009
    Northern Kentucky
    Definitely sounds like a good idea. I'll happily give this post a supportive bump!
  15. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    Consumer reports would be very handy. Get yourselves over to Right to Vape and see if there's a way to set something up ;)

    Thanks for the support on eliquid testing.

    Would you be more likely to want to buy eliquid that has a RtV approval mark do you think?
  16. RhinoOne

    RhinoOne Full Member ECF Veteran

    Oct 3, 2008
    Wilmington, DE USA
    I would! Maybe a Poll on this, Kate?
  17. Smokingfreely

    Smokingfreely Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Mar 27, 2009
    Arlington, TX
    I understand why you'd want the test - how do you know if an ingredient list from across the globe is really accurate, but I think you're hoping for too much with this. For one, without a certain level of quality control, random sampling is just that - totally random, and not indicative of any generalized conditions.

    There could be excellent quality control in these, and I'm not suggesting otherwise, but this test wouldn't show that. When the FDA checks out a facility, they give a thorough inspection of the facility and their processes - this in conjuction with random sampling means something, because they have proven that they have a system in place to guarantee consistency, so yesterday's batch is fairly certain to match todays.

    How are you viewing this stamp of approval - as an interesting sidenote that a vendor can use as a marketing tool (ie. certified organic,) or is it your intention to try to blacklist vendors that haven't paid you for your stamp?
  18. Kate

    Kate Moved On

    Jun 26, 2008
    That's a good idea Rhino, I'll think about adding a poll to this thread.

    I'm afraid that there's only so much checking we could do Freely and the most practical way for consumers to encourage good practice and double checking seems to be random anonymous tests of voluntarily registered products. Proper testing of facilities, batch testing, etc would fall more under a statutory system of checks that's put in place due to legal regulation.

    There have been no proposals for a blacklist although a list of registered products may be published.
  19. Heed

    Heed Senior Member ECF Veteran

    Dec 24, 2008
    That's all fine and dandy, but many retailers will buy in bulk from these manufacturers and then decant the liquid themselves or decant and also add ingredients/cut the liquid.

    It then becomes a different product that has been exposed to different conditions/ingredients.

    Unless you plan to test from every retail point there could be some fairly confusing situations:

    Retailer "X" says his liquid is from an approved factory and displays an "approved sticker" when in reality he has taken that approved product and tampered with it in his garden shed or garage to the point that testing might reveal quite different results.
  20. OutWest

    OutWest Unregistered Supplier ECF Veteran

    Feb 8, 2009
    Oklahoma USA
    The flip side of that, though, is that there should be some sort of passthru certification, otherwise every retailer has to get a sample of each batch tested. For me, that means 1 out of every 24 bottles would have to be tested (I currently buy each flavor/strength in a lot of 24 - 24 bottles of caramel 36mg, 24 bottles of caramel 24mg, etc). While I have no idea what testing would cost, let's say it's $400. That would make the cost of 23 bottles increase by $400, which in turn would mean a $17.39 per bottle price hike (and that's not figuring in the cost of the one bottle that was submitted to the lab)
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