Ethyl Maltol - how does this taste to you?

[Tona Aspsusa]

I'm starting to wonder if I screwed up totally on mixing my EM crystals, or if it is just my sense of taste that is really screwed up.

A while back I made a solution of ~1ml and a bit crystals (I have a measuring spoon that says 1/4 tsp = 1ml - the next one in the same series(!) says 1 tsp = 5 ml... ) in 10ml PG.

I used a tiny amount of this solution, one drop to 10 ml, in a blend and thought "woah, where did this weird pickling-juice/spice/caramel taste come from?!", suspecting the vinegar I had also added. A few hours later the pickling/spice was gone, but this caramel/burnt sugar thingy was still there (my throat really doesn't like it). Tinkering further with this blend (and some other experiments) made it clear that the vinegar really wasn't the culprit. I sort of suspected the EM, but couldn't be sure and anyway I managed to dilute/hide that burnt sugar irritation enough that I forgot all about it.

At the time when I mixed my EM-solution I also did a "tobacco Absolute in EM".
Like this: I took a toothpick and smeared some TA on it, used the toothpick to transfer this to the inside of a clean bottle. Then I added something like half a ml of PGA to that bottle and shook it until the smears of TA were no longer adhering to the sides of the bottle. Filled it up with 5 ml of my EM solution. Shook, warmed, set aside. It has dissolved very nicely, and is a pale yellow clear liquid (my pure EM in PG is colourless), no rings.

So yesterday I mixed 3 drops of my "TA in EM" to 4ml of PG @ 15mg/ml. After letting it stand (cap on) for about 4-5 hours in a very warm place I tested it:
- The taste from the TA is *very* pleasant! More please!
- But what is all this SUGAR doing in my vape??? (I now see why one could call EM "Cotton Candy" - there's some resemblance in taste to that.)

But what I am wondering about is whether I messed something up when I mixed my EM, because from all I've read it really shouldn't taste this sugary at concentrations like this?
It is also very dominating to me (even more so today than yesterday, I hardly taste the TA at all).

I can see part of the explanation being that as I am very flavour-sensitive I use much less of other flavours so that makes the TA proportionally a bigger part of the mix - but this is still too much. I shouldn't be getting "cotton candy" or "burnt sugar" associations from 2-4%, should I?

 

[Str8V8ping]

The standard dilution of EM crystals is 1/4 teaspoon in 10ml PG .That dilution is what cotton candy flavoring is (10% EM) . Once thats done then you would use it in your ejuices at usually 1-3% depending on what your trying to acheive . EM is not a sugar or sugar alternative but can be considered a sweetener to the way our mouths perceive it . Em tastes like a toasted caramel with a hint of cotton candy .If you dont like the burnt caramel/cotton candy taste them EM is not for you since thats exactly what it is AKA the base in some Ry4 juices and main ingridient in BWB Malty .

Em is super concentrated as well and can overpower thing with a small percentage . EM also smells exactly like it tastes . From the sound of it you really hate the taste of EM and theres no getting rid of the toasted caramel/cotton candy taste since thats exactly what it is . Some people LOVE the smell and taste of EM and some people just dont . I personally love it scent and all . I wouldnt mind wearing it as cologne .

 

[panachronic]

Creating a 10% EM/PG base seems to be the default procedure to prepare TA for use. I first tried to make a TA flavor base with just PG, and it was hideously bad. I don't know why the proportions couldn't be adjusted, if "cotton-candy flavored tobacco" isn't your thing.

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

From the sound of it you really hate the taste of EM and theres no getting rid of the toasted caramel/cotton candy taste since thats exactly what it is.

I don't hate it at all - I actually quite like the taste, but my throat definitely doesn't.
And it is rather dominating. Maybe it will blend in more if I let it steep for a week or two?

I am just so surprised at being able to taste it this strongly at 3 drops of of 10% in 4 ml. From the descriptions I have read this taste I am getting is something like what people describe when using just a tad less than the full 10% solution. Let's say 3 drops is equal to 0.12 ml (big drops), that would be 3% of 10% solution in my juice, so 0.3% EM in my juice.
From everything I've read I should not be able to taste it at all!

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Creating a 10% EM/PG base seems to be the default procedure to prepare TA for use. I first tried to make a TA flavor base with just PG, and it was hideously bad. I don't know why the proportions couldn't be adjusted, if "cotton-candy flavored tobacco" isn't your thing.

In what way was the TA base hideously bad?

I'm really liking the faint hint I get behind the EM, so I am thinking of doing another bottle of only TA in PGA/PG like I did this one (smear a little bit of TA on the inside of the bottle, add a smidgen of PGA to dissolve it, add PG, shake, warm, let sit for a week).

 

[Str8V8ping]

I don't hate it at all - I actually quite like the taste, but my throat definitely doesn't.
And it is rather dominating. Maybe it will blend in more if I let it steep for a week or two?

I am just so surprised at being able to taste it this strongly at 3 drops of of 10% in 4 ml. From the descriptions I have read this taste I am getting is something like what people describe when using just a tad less than the full 10% solution. Let's say 3 drops is equal to 0.12 ml (big drops), that would be 3% of 10% solution in my juice, so 0.3% EM in my juice.
From everything I've read I should not be able to taste it at all!

Em is pretty strong at any percent .Its more a sweetener than a flavoring . If you add it to a mellow vape like you mentioned with the TA then EM is going to overpower it . If used in a flavor rich bakery juice it will enhance the flavor more so than taste like EM . RY4 juices that use EM usually always have the EM as the Dominant taste since it overpowers a mellow tobacco . It may still be dominant after steeping since i find EM to pretty much unchange with steeping . In my Malty toffee mix it actually get stronger and more candyish .

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

But where does this idea of EM at low percentages only adding "body" come from??? People who have some taste-receptors I lack? People who lack some receptors I have?

It is actually a very interesting flavour to me, because it is "sugar" or "burnt sugar", not really "sweet".
Like when you sprinkle sugar on something like hot cream of wheat (or other porridge) or pancakes/crepes - if you take a bite right away you taste both sugar and sweetness, but if you wait a bit so the sugar melts/dissolves a bit into the porridge or crepe you only get sweetness. EM to me is like a sugar that never goes from "sugar" to "sweet".
(And now I am thinking about mixing it with cinnamon and sugar and putting it on my porridge...)

Luckily I have had good experiences so far with vinegar when it comes to "roundness" and "softness", so not getting the expected effect from minute amounts of EM is not such a catastrophe. Only a bit of a bummer, because I had already in my mind added a bit of "body" to lots of things.
When I order stuff next (which must be soon because I am all out of good 100% glycerine and not having any luck in finding it locally, only Aq.Glyr., and a bit nasty-tasting at that, oh and I'm almost out of nic too - ie almost all of the 80grams (weird vendor, translates to ~77ml) @ 36mg/ml I initially ordered is now residing in various mixes; most of them quite vapeable but I want to mix more! MORE!) I will get some MTS Wape Wizard in the hope that this might add some of that elusive "body".

I am in two minds now about what to do with my EM-TA juice.
I could let it stand as it is for a week or so and test it again, in the hope that the "sugary" taste will have mellowed some.
Or I could do some stuff to it now, and see what happens:
- I could add some vinegar and hope that it counter-acts the "sugary" a bit.
- I could further dilute it, and see at what point the "sugary" dissappears
- I could mix up some plain TA in PGA/PG, add a drop of that
- I could do all of the above.

It's a pity that my throat really dislike this "sugary" taste - I don't know if it is a brain-thing (brain associates this "undissolved granular/crystal sugar" taste with throat irritation), or an actual local thing in my throat.

Anyone ever heard of a sensitivity to EM? Somehow that seems *highly* unlikely. Maybe I could teach my brain to not make my throat irritated? Though that might not be such a good idea - it is probably there for a good reason.

Hmm - the more I think about this, the more interesting it gets. "This" being how I/we/humans perceive "sugar", and the difference between "sugar" and "sweet".
It is exactly this difference that stymied my enthusiasm for making candy as a child: sugar ingredients except for lump, crystal or powdered just were not available at all. And I had no thermometer (I still don't, I really should get one). So except for things that work with a caramellized/dark syrup taste, I just couldn't make anything. I now know that it is technically possible to make nice and smooth things out of plain sugar, but it takes an enormous attention to temperature. It is much, much, easier to do if you can use various other sugars, like glucose and invertase and especially solutions with fructose, glucose, etc.
I especially remember the first time I tried to make peppermint "eyes" (small white peppermint patties with a drop of dark chocolate on them): epic fail. Once the sugar-patties had dried, they started re-crystallizing (and after a few days you could even see how they sucked in moisture from the air, starting to look really gross). The taste was all wrong - it was "pepperminted white sugar", not "peppermint candy". I have tried a few times since then, using recipes that use vinegar or cream of tartar and stuff, and some of those looked very good, but I've never been able to shake that "white sugar" taste that to me is just wrong. If I were to ever try again I would seek out some more advanced recipes that uses other sugars (and of course use a thermometer!).

And now darn it, all this thinking about the taste of "sugar" has made me sense it in my Hangsen-based* lovely Rothman's!
It *is* a bit on the sweeter side, and I *liked* that yesterday. I think I must go fill up a new carto with plain PG - it may be sweet, but at least it isn't sugary


*For newbie DIY:ers who are all out of commercial juice and are still trying to make a really good all-day-vape tobacco I heartily recommend Hangsen's concentrates. They are easy and a vape-saver to have around when you get tired of vaping your "almost there" experiments. The recommendation is 30%, I have mixed at 15% and so far I have liked everything I've tried:
- The Kent is so far my favourite (the original Kent was my favourite cig (and my mother's and grandmother's too!)), might even bump that up to 17-20% for the next bottle,
- The Rothman's I totally adored until I started thinking too much about sugar (might try it 10% next time),
- The Dunhill I have only drip-tasted so far, but it seems nice (dry-ish)
- The Stuyvesant's and Davidoff's I initially loved (Stuy' is drier, juicier, D'doff more spicy-sweetish, vanilla? - definitely more the Gold or Magnum, not the Original) but now think I should probably dilute these more and perhaps mix with something else.
What really impresses me about these Hangsen concentrates is that by chosing at random by cig-brands *I* like, but which I never considered to be extremely similar, I ended up with four flavours that are all different but very subtly so - they are really close to each other in my taste. Next time I get the opportunity to smoke a Stuyvesant or a Rothman's (things I very seldom see) I will be extremely alert for all small nuances of taste. When I was a very very new vaper (one week in or so) and first tried the D'doff I actually still had some analogs, and when I later the same day smoked an actual Davidoff (Light/Gold) I suddenly started to notice subtle flavours in the analog that I hadn't been able to pick out before, but that I now recognized from vaping the Hangsen version!)

Hmm. I do sometimes like to write, don't I. Maybe I should start a blog here...

 

[canoeist]

I am using 6-7% EM in a juice, it had the harsh throat feel until I added 1 small drop of lemon juice per 5ml. Not sure if it will help but trying it on a 5ml sample would be pretty simple. I put some lemon juice in a 3ml bottle and use it to drip. Used a lemon juice that comes in a bottle that looks like a lemon.

 

[Hoosier]

Yeah, I can see going to MTS VW for body instead. Some folks just don't take EM well or they taste sweetness way before many can detect a thing.

Some of it may even be cultural. Here in the US it can be difficult to find food that doesn't have sugar or syrup added to it, so we may have had our tastebuds burnt out on sweet. (This adding sugar thing annoys the blazes out of me.)

Now if a cultural thing was combined with a super taster, I can only imagine the odd things that would occur.

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

Good point about culture, Hoosier. I think I am a frightful "sugar rat", but it is true that already as close as Sweden I tend to find some things weirdly sweet (bread mainly, their pickled herring is also much sweeter than ours, but that I actually prefer).

The thing I find weirdest is that I don't really think it is too sweet so much as too sugary - and that there's a definite difference between the two. Sugar can yield sweet (as in most food sweetened with sugar, duh!), but sugar straight up is definitely different in taste than the sweetness of fruit or cooked carrots or onions.

I'm probably just weird. I've never understood why people claim fructose or glucose is sweeter than sucrose - they taste ever so slightly different, yes, but I would never substitute half a teaspoon of fructose in my tea for a full tsp of sugar (as was all the rage in the 70-ies). I wonder if this oddity of mine is in some way related to my oddity about bitter? Where I apparently can't sense one particular kind, and am oddly over-sensitive to another - which makes choosing a beer something of an adventure.

Anyway, I just mixed up a dilution of TA without any EM. From what I've read TA absolutely needs EM or something else like that, so this will be interesting.

 

[Hoosier]

Um, Tona, I don't use EM with TA.

Of course I usually mix it with FA tobaccos most of the time, but I've never used EM. VW, yes, not EM.

I'll bet it comes out better.

 

[panachronic]

In what way was the TA base hideously bad?

I'm really liking the faint hint I get behind the EM, so I am thinking of doing another bottle of only TA in PGA/PG like I did this one (smear a little bit of TA on the inside of the bottle, add a smidgen of PGA to dissolve it, add PG, shake, warm, let sit for a week).

It was unvapable. To be a little more objective about it, that was one of my earliest efforts and the lack of EM was certainly not the only problem. But I came to learn that TA is naturally not a pleasant flavor without being married to some kind of sweetener.

 

[JGD]

Boy, I'm doing something wrong.. when I mixed it it literally tasted like a combo of sweet and poison! I did the 10% in a 10ml bottle and HATED it. I'm trying to find an alternative.... I have a major sweet tooth Sucralose maybe? I dislike Stevia..... are there any other options for sweetener?

 

[JGD]

What's VW?? I've heard TA is REALLY, REALLY sweet and that one drop can ruin a whole bottle of juice.... I've had some warnings to keep away from it.

 

[Hoosier]

VW is Vape Wizard. Tobacco Absolute being really really sweet is news to me.

 

[Shilo]

I love EM as everyone all ready knows but I do agree you either love it or you don't. Its sweet enough or its too sweet or its not sweet enough. There will be many different answers for this as there are people with different perceptions on this forum which last time I checked was quite a few.


I do use EM in Tobacco mixes shoot I use it in practically everything. I tried not using it a few mixes and I wasn't happy.

 

[Tona Aspsusa]

You know what bugs me?

I really understand why people would love EM and use it in everything. I was totally anticipating loving it in everything.

When I first got my little jar of crystals I just had to open it immediately and taste it. Very strong burnt sugar, yum!
I fully anticipated that when mixed with PG and harsher tobacco tastes just a little drop would lose the strong sugar taste and become unobtrusive and just a bit sweet in the sense of non-bitter, non-acidic or non-harsh - like a pinch of sugar or honey does in cooking.

I am still vainly hoping that maybe, just maybe, with some more steeping it might be toned down to something more palatable and less sugary for me.

Hey - Here's a question:
You who like EM and use it a lot, are your bases mainly PG or VG?

Maybe that is a factor in hiding the sugary taste?
(Both VG and PG tastes sweet to me, but in different ways.)

 

[Hoosier]

You who like EM and use it a lot, are your bases mainly PG or VG?

I'm guessing I run somewhere in the 70/30 to 80/20 PG/VG area. I don't worry about the ratio too much.

But, most of the mixes I use it in only have a small fraction of a single percent total and I've never used it in tobacco mixes since my first attempt at Scubabatdan's tobacco recipe. Hooo, that seems like a long time ago...

It just did not seem to help the tobacco flavor to me, so I started leaving it out and made better progress that way.

Even though I leave it out of tobaccos and I use tiny amounts for most other recipes, I just added it up and I've gone through about 150ml of 10% EM since I started mixing.

 

[canoeist]

Hey - Here's a question:
You who like EM and use it a lot, are your bases mainly PG or VG?

I am using 70-80% vg and using 5-6% em

 

[Sweeney Todd]

Tona, my wife has a similar issue with getting nothing but a sweet note in mixes I don't find sweet. It's been driving me nuts! And now that I think about it... it happened most recently with my tobacco mixes.

It may very well turn out to be EM, in which case I owe you a beer for forestalling more "No it's not sweet! Yes it is!" arguments around our household. Going to set up a blind taste test for her tonight and see if that's it.

My wife seems to notice the effect much less strongly in heavy-VG juices.