Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

[Mazinny]

I was wondering when this would happen. They seem to be most concerned about the Reuleaux 200, but they name a host of other joyetech, Wismec and eleaf products. I wonder why they went after joyetech specifically and not other manufacturers using VW.

https://search.rpxcorp.com/lit/cacdce-642108

 

[IMFire3605]

*Shakes Head*

We ourselves and now manufacturers and designers going after each other over trademark and other issues. Heard a bit ago PAX (designers of the JUUL and recreational vaporizers) have got NJoy locked up in court over trademark issues as well. Guess as a whole, the vapor industry is just as bad an enemy to ourselves as the FDA, Big Pharma, and Big Tobacco.

Guess Evolv are posterior hurt over the fact the RX200 sells more units than the pricier DNA200 version of the Wismec 200watt. Same issue as we had during the mech clone wars, China based companies can crank out similar quality devices cheaper, faster, and in more volume than those that do not wish to invest in the equipment, facilities, or manpower to equal the competition, so as a typical American, guess litigation is the answer. Money that could be put to better use clobbering the FDA over the head, get that battle finished, and other political fronts before moving on to smaller cookies in our own ranks.

meh, is what is I guess

 

[Ryedan]

I was wondering when this would happen. They seem to be most concerned about the Reuleaux 200, but they name a host of other Joyetech, Wismec and Eleaf products. I wonder why they went after Joyetech specifically and not other manufacturers using VW.

https://search.rpxcorp.com/lit/cacdce-642108

Well this should get interesting.

I suspect Joyetech USA's net worth is a bit higher than the other smaller/newer companies out there. There's not much to gain in suing someone who can't afford to pay unless you're just doing it on principle.

 

[Mazinny]

*Shakes Head*


Guess Evolv are posterior hurt over the fact the RX200 sells more units than the pricier DNA200 version of the Wismec 200watt.

I suspect you are right. They were willingly doing business with Joyetech up until the alleged reverse engineering for the RX200. Then all of a sudden they claim patent violation for all previous VW devices including :

Wismec Presa Standard, Wismec Presa TC75W, Wismec Presa TC40W, Wismec VaporFlask series, Joyetech Cuboid, Joyetech eVic Series, Joyetech eGrip Series, Joyetech eCom wattage controlled, Joyetech eMode, and Eleaf iStick series.

 

[Maiar]

Well this should get interesting.

I suspect Joyetech USA's net worth is a bit higher than the other smaller/newer companies out there. There's not much to gain in suing someone who can't afford to pay unless you're just doing it on principle.

My thoughts exactly. Joyetech must have the most money.

 

[Mazinny]

Well this should get interesting.

I suspect Joyetech USA's net worth is a bit higher than the other smaller/newer companies out there. There's not much to gain in suing someone who can't afford to pay unless you're just doing it on principle.

You may be right, but Innokin and Kanger are pretty big and both have U.S. subsidiaries too.

I suspect RX200 is really taking a lot of market share away from DNA 200 devices.

.....
47. During the November 11, 2015 meeting in Irvine, California,
Joyetech’s and Wismec’s representative informed Evolv’s President of Joyetech
and Wismec’s intent to market a competing “low budget” 200-wattage device based upon a new circuit board alternative to the DNA® 200.

48. During the same meeting, Evolv’s President, Brandon Ward, advised
Mr. Qian of the ’330 Patent and instructed him that the ’330 Patent claims many of the inventions found in the DNA® 200 circuit board. Mr. Ward informed Mr. Qian of the need for Joyetech to obtain a license from Evolv in order to import, make, sell, or offer for sale the “low budget” 200-wattage vaporizer containing a circuit board not purchased from Evolv. Mr. Qian did not initially respond except to request a copy of the ’330 Patent.

49. On or about November 17, 2015, Evolv’s President e-mailed Mr. Qian,
providing him with a copy of the ’330 Patent, and offering to further discuss
Joyetech and Wismec’s planned “low budget” 200-wattage device. Mr. Qian
replied that he had forwarded the ’330 Patent to “our IP department” for review.
50. Evolv’s President reiterated that Joyetech and Wismec must obtain a
license of the ’330 Patent to avoid infringement. Evolv offered to negotiate such a license in order to mitigate the harm that would result from a flood of Joyetech and Wismec’s pirated products being imported into the United States, as at the time the license was offered, Defendants had to date only produced low quality products. ....


Additionally, after saturating the United States market with knock-offs
for almost four months, Defendants, and each of them, finally conceded after
prodding, that a license to avoid infringement was necessary. Defendants’ Mr.
Qian wrote in a March 7, 2016 e-mail, “[w]e have fully studied your patent with
[sic] claimed rights. How much do you need us pay for each licensed products…?”


87. Evolv replied as follows in relevant part, “Evolv is not willing to sell
or license its patent. We are willing to continue to sell Wismec and Joyetech our
boards, and to work with you to fulfill all of your needs [i.e., sell Evolv’s circuit
boards in sufficient quantities].

 

[USMCotaku]

I suspect you are right. They were willingly doing business with Joyetech up until the alleged reverse engineering for the RX200. Then all of a sudden they claim patent violation for all previous VW devices including :

Wismec Presa Standard, Wismec Presa TC75W, Wismec Presa TC40W, Wismec VaporFlask series, Joyetech Cuboid, Joyetech eVic Series, Joyetech eGrip Series, Joyetech eCom wattage controlled, Joyetech eMode, and Eleaf iStick series.

They can't really claim the RX200 was "reverse engineered" from the DNA200 version.....the chips are completely different, only similarity being wattage (and plenty of chips out there are 200 watts now), all other parts of the mod is OWNED by Wismec, so they can put any chip they want in it.

Since Joyetech has been producing VW devices since prior to the awarding of that patent, eVolve might have a tough time getting any traction with this. You just know this is all about the RX200....you don't see eVolve going after Provape, who also use VW in the P3 and Radius.

 

[USMCotaku]

The irony is, those who purchase the RX200, aren't generally the market base for the DNA200's, being at such different price points.

 

[Mazinny]

Upon information and belief, Joyetech and Wismec’s decision to market a knockoff version of the “Reuleaux” product, while having an authorized version freely available, is based on Joyetech and Wismec’s intention to drive down the price of all vaporizers featuring Evolv’s patented circuit boards, and thereby effectively drive Evolv and other manufacturing competitors from the United Statesmarket before the market consolidates around FDA-approved devices.

Upon information and belief, if Defendants’ piracy is allowed to continue unabated, Evolv will be driven from the electronic vaporizer circuit board market, and the only significant remaining market entities will be Chinese-based manufacturers, and the consumer market will be denied the benefit of future technology developments from Evolv.

 

[Mazinny]

They seem to emphasize the RX200 and Cuboid, but later on in the complaint they seem to imply any device capable of providing accurate power ( wattage ) using a button to adjust the power level, is in violation of their patent. If they win on this ( and somehow are able to collect ) , the owners of Evolv will become very very rivh indeed.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

This will likely remove the Chinese Vape companies US based presence.
And will severely cut into Evolve's chip sales. Since they sell chips to several companies who also make/import mods with other VW chipsets in them.

 

[DavidAmonettNashville]

Evolv has had this card in its back pocket for a bit now. They were very smart and exercised good business sense by applying/receiving a patent on Variable Wattage. They have every right to enforce it. Sounds like there's trouble brewing for China Unless joyetech is using a different method of VW which doesn't significantly infringe upon Evolv's idea which for some reason i highly doubt

 

[Canadian_Vaper]

The irony is, those who purchase the RX200, aren't generally the market base for the DNA200's, being at such different price points.

Exactly, people aren't being deceived when they purchase it, they knowingly purchase it because it has a lower price tag because the chip is cheaper than the DNA 200 one...

 

[skoony]

This is why the patent system is screwed up. A miniature volt, watt,current meter/
power supply on a circuit board is now patent-able.
I wonder that the folks that make these think.
Programmable DC Power Supply - 62000P - Chroma
I will admit applying technology to vaping is novel but, isn't it essentially re purposed
off the shelf technology? Is that enough to become patent-able?
Regards
Mike

 

[rhelton]

The RX200 crushed the potential sales of the DNA200. We may never know if the RX processes the same as the DNA but that is what they claim. I would be ...... at Wismec too and I hope that Evolv wins and get their due's.

 

[Douggro]

This is why the patent system is screwed up. A miniature volt, watt,current meter/power supply on a circuit board is now patent-able. I wonder that the folks that make these think. Programmable DC Power Supply - 62000P - Chroma
I will admit applying technology to vaping is novel but, isn't it essentially re purposed off the shelf technology? Is that enough to become patent-able?
Regards
Mike

The landscape for patent litigation has been changing in the past few years. The battles over IP patents has soured the courts with regard to the legitimacy of patents of questionable veracity. Evolv will likely have to give compelling evidence that their patent has a unique proprietary function they developed as part of the power regulation circuit for their case to hold water, for the very point that you raised: power regulation is nothing new.
I'm also somewhat surprised by their choice of venue; East Texas is the hotbed for getting IP patent cases on the docket quickly with judges favorable to the plaintiff.

 

[Completely Average]

I wonder why they went after Joyetech specifically and not other manufacturers using VW.

It's all about the implementation.

They couldn't sue anyone using the Yihi chips because the way Yihi implements it's VW modulation is entirely different from the way Evolv does it. They end up with similar results, but the path they take to get there is very different.

Joytech on the other hand appears to have simply reverse engineered Evolv's chips and made their own that works almost exactly the same way. It's not a 1:1 clone of the Evolv chips, but it's very close.


That said, this may be dangerous ground for Evolv to walk on. They most certainly did not invent VW technology and they may very well find that their patents are nullified if Joyetech can cite specific examples of "Prior Art" where other products used the exact same method of offering VW for other devices (Not necessarily ecigs) before Evolv. Then not only would Evolv lose their case against Joyetech, but they could potentially open themselves up to lawsuit from another manufacturer that used the same method of providing VW before they did.

Apple recently lost one of their lawsuits against Samsung regarding the "Slide to lock" features for the exact same reason. Samsung was able to demonstrate "prior art" which invalidated Apple's patent claim. One of the Prior Art cases had nothing at all to do with cell phones, but the judge ruled that it was an obvious solution that cell phone designers would turn to. The same could apply here. If Joytech can find ANY device that used the same VW method to adjust and regulate the wattage output then they could cite Prior Art and invalidate Evolv's patent.


If I was Joyetech I would be doing a LOT of research on digital thermostats right about now.

 

[90VG]

I agree skoony. You can buy a buck converter on Amazon for U$6. They even have a digital display. Hook that up to a couple batterys, a 510 connection, extend the buttons and you are done. Heck, I could even make a vape with almost any of the Microchip PIC's and a Mofset (PWM).

I think the problem lies in that the patent people aren't educated in the fields they are approving. I'm all for intellectual property rights, but there has to be a point where if it's stupid simple and just a normal laws of physics thing (like high school physics from 20+ years ago, not now) then patenting that should get an Application Denied notice.

What if I took a MicroChip PIC, usb cable, 2 batteries and used Windows 10 voice recognition to make a desktop vape? "VapeMaster, 72 watts" "Yes sir". Should I be able to patent that device? No. It's like cargo strapping two ladders together to make it taller.

Maybe I will make a vape from a pic32mx795. I have the 510 connection, I have the Mofsets, wires, caps, resistors everything. Only thing I'll have to buy is a little voltage regulator for the chip P/S. Even have the batteries and sleds. Heck, I'll make it open source too! Patent that!

 

[jrlakeman]

Seems like a playground fued and evolve doesnt like a cheaper chip that works out there now. I cant afford evolv boards so untill they drop there price im stuck buying chinese mods. Im sure alot of ppl rather have american made chip but not at $100 dollars more.

 

[Douggro]

It's all about the implementation.

They couldn't sue anyone using the Yihi chips because the way Yihi implements it's VW modulation is entirely different from the way Evolv does it. They end up with similar results, but the path they take to get there is very different.

Joytech on the other hand appears to have simply reverse engineered Evolv's chips and made their own that works almost exactly the same way. It's not a 1:1 clone of the Evolv chips, but it's very close.

That said, this may be dangerous ground for Evolv to walk on. They most certainly did not invent VW technology and they may very well find that their patents are nullified if Joyetech can cite specific examples of "Prior Art" where other products used the exact same method of offering VW for other devices (Not necessarily ecigs) before Evolv. Then not only would Evolv lose their case against Joyetech, but they could potentially open themselves up to lawsuit from another manufacturer that used the same method of providing VW before they did.

Apple recently lost one of their lawsuits against Samsung regarding the "Slide to lock" features for the exact same reason. Samsung was able to demonstrate "prior art" which invalidated Apple's patent claim. One of the Prior Art cases had nothing at all to do with cell phones, but the judge ruled that it was an obvious solution that cell phone designers would turn to. The same could apply here. If Joytech can find ANY device that used the same VW method to adjust and regulate the wattage output then they could cite Prior Art and invalidate Evolv's patent.

If I was Joyetech I would be doing a LOT of research on digital thermostats right about now.

Well said.
I'm not confident about Evolv's chances with getting this through and succeeding with their case. Much of it will depend on what Joyetech decides to do with litigating their position and how much money they are willing to spend doing so. Companies have been moving away from settling these cases if they believe the patent is on weak foundational ground.