Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

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Yozhik

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There is the option there for joyetech to cede validity and argue infringement, but the standard has been to challenge validity as the primary argument and infringement as an adjunct portion of the case.
For sure, the discovery process is going to be a back-and-forth issue - for both parties. Evolv is at a disadvantage somewhat in that regard, as you noted that most of the pertinent records are going to be in China.
I don't see jurisdiction being much of an issue: that's all spelled out in the first two pages of the filing. And according to a previous poster, joyetech has used the same court for filing suit so there is precedence of venue.

There's no such standard. Whether to focus on infringement or invalidity depends on the facts of the case, but Evolv first has to make a plausible argument of infringement. Otherwise, joyetech can file a motion for summary judgment on non-infringement and prevail. This pretty much puts the burden on Evolv regarding its infringement arguments right from the start. As for invalidity, that burden can largely be moved toward the end of discovery if desired. If you're client is a Fortune 500 company, things aren't done that way, but not every client is a Fortune 500 company. ;)

As to jurisdiction, Evolv asserting that Joyetech China and Wismec has substantial, systemic, and continuous contacts with California in that judicial district isn't sufficient. Rather, there will likely be an extensive period of limited discovery and motion practice solely on the subject of jurisdiction. In view of the Supreme Court's J. McIntyre and Goodyear cases, it can be actually quite difficult to establish personal jurisdiction over foreign companies.
 

Yozhik

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It's quite possible Evolv has lawyers on staff who are being paid a salary.

It's quite possible Evolv has retained attorneys who have taken the case based on a percentage of awarded monies.

Both of the above scenarios would keep legal fees down. I seriously doubt Evolv went in to this with out seeking the advice of counsel and getting some estimate of cost. If Evolv did not think the risk / reward was worth it they most certainly would not have filed.

Both possibilities are highly unlikely. Usually only very large companies (e.g., Google) that are routinely involved in patent litigation have patent lawyers on staff. Also, AmLaw 100 firms like Baker & Hostetler typically do not handle contingency cases in patent litigation. Further, when the big bags of money are in China and enforcing payment of U.S. judgments in China is notoriously difficult, I just don't see anyone handling this on contingency.

Rather, what I'd point out is that even if the case ends up costing Evolv a few million dollars, compared to the size of the market it may make sense to proceed even if chances of winning are murky to unfavorable. Also, one should never disregard in litigation that isn't always about money, but also anger one party feels toward another. As such, just dragging people into court can bring its own satisfaction to some litigants.
 

crxess

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Or maybe they are angry at themselves for thinking they had another cash cow Deal, only to realize most of the Market wants More for less, Not more for more.

The Efusion Mini is a limited edition mod from Lost Vape that uses Evolv’s DNA200 chip. Each mini is constructed from 6061-T6 aluminum which is anodized after machining to give it a beautiful luster and finish. Some of its main features include temperature control, upgradeable firmware, max power output of 200 Watts, and an interchangeable 900mAh 3 Cell LiPo battery.

Another - Built-in battery Mod, I'd be inclined to pass on.

Perhaps a quantity of their Lost sales are due to Providing boards to High end Designers with little Market vision.
 

fishwater

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Or maybe they are angry at themselves for thinking they had another cash cow Deal, only to realize most of the Market wants More for less, Not more for more.



Another - Built-in battery Mod, I'd be inclined to pass on.

Perhaps a quantity of their Lost sales are due to Providing boards to High end Designers with little Market vision.

Actually I own the Efusion Mini & the battery is replaceable, not built in as you claim. In fact lost vape sells the replacement utilizing XT30 connectors for $23.00 which is very reasonable for a lipo pack IMO. Instead of assuming your biases on what the "market wants" you should probably research it first.
 

crxess

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Actually I own the Efusion Mini & the battery is replaceable, not built in as you claim. In fact lost vape sells the replacement utilizing XT30 connectors for $23.00 which is very reasonable for a lipo pack IMO. Instead of assuming your biases on what the "market wants" you should probably research it first.

Some of its main features include temperature control, upgradeable firmware, max power output of 200 Watts, and an interchangeable 900mAh 3 Cell LiPo battery. Battery should only be replaced by experienced / advanced users)

reference Based on This Vendor Note:
Most Vapers, even Long Term are Not Advanced, in mechanical/electrical knowledge of construction and Should NOT Attempt.(According to the Vendor)

My Personal choice has nothing to do with Bias. The market is strong in Both Built-in and External Battery choice, but particularly in the Under $75 Choice range.

I am not Biased against anyone using Any device or choice.......so long as They are Safe.
My Choice(not Bias) is to Pick Mods with decent build Quality that will easily exceed Battery life and will have readily available replacement Batteries.
Second is never having to wait for a Battery to Charge to head out with a preferred device.

Chillax.:cool:

My point is Evolv has no control over Chip usage once delivered and therefor no control over market acceptability. Some mods and manufacturers may do great<on whatever volume they produce> while others may suffer miserably and seek other avenues to bolster sales<cheaper Chips>

Better?
 
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fishwater

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reference Based on This Vendor Note:
Most Vapers, even Long Term are Not Advanced, in mechanical/electrical knowledge of construction and Should NOT Attempt.(According to the Vendor)

My Personal choice has nothing to do with Bias. The market is strong in Both Built-in and External Battery choice, but particularly in the Under $75 Choice range.

I am not Biased against anyone using Any device or choice.......so long as They are Safe.
My Choice(not Bias) is to Pick Mods with decent build Quality that will easily exceed Battery life and will have readily available replacement Batteries.
Second is never having to wait for a Battery to Charge to head out with a preferred device.

Chillax.:cool:

My point is Evolv has no control over Chip usage once delivered and therefor no control over market acceptability. Smoe mods and manufacturers may do great<on whatever volume they produce> while others may suffer miserably and seek other avenues to bolster sales<cheaper Chips>

Better?

Point taken, my issue was more with the assumption that the battery was not user serviceable as in a throw away mod when that is not the case.

I agree with the fact that as you said Evolv has no control after the chip is sold but to your point these devices are getting cheaper & mfrs are making them serviceable in the fact that they are making them with XT30 connectors. I think that mfr note was prior to releasing the replacement battery pack for the mini as the last generation Efusion had the same warning.

Fwiw.....most cell phones no longer have user replaceable batteries....the market doesn't seem to mind.
 

crxess

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most "built in" batteries on dna200 mods are user replaceable....however, they are designed to be charged in mod, not swapped out and externally charged.

Fully understood and capable myself. 40+years with Tools in hand as an Auto tech/DC Tech and Retail Automotive Electronics business owner.

That said, we are a Knowledgeable forum of almost 1/4 million members. Some missing in action, many New and a majority of Not Technically advanced Vapors. I'd Venture 10K or so that really enjoy, dig in and understand most aspects and have the capabilities to strip/ rebuild or even build from scratch if needed.

This number is but a Blip on the radar of total Vapers in the world today.

I try to understand, not assume or be Biased.:cool:
 
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Mazinny

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Yes before any other VV/VW device... and specifically *LONG* before the ego twist and in fact before the non-vv ego. There was one other selectable voltage device at the same time that had a three position switch that gave you three choices of voltage, but variable wasn't a thing until "the buzz" and "the terminator".

And yes. Mike has indeed many times expressed a willingness to sue to protect his patents... and you can add to that the fact he has other non-ecig-related patents that he has had opportunity to defend.

And yes, he has had agreements with other e-cig makers. The most "famous" (for lack of a better word) was the VV REO Woodville (I have one, in fact) and the VV REO Grand. Although the REOs weren't so much an "agreement" as such. Notcigs made the chips to REO's specs and REO bought the chips direct from notcigs to install in REOs designed to accept such chips.

This day has been coming for a long time. I don't think anyone even two years or more ago doubted that evolv would be the ones to get the ball rolling. The big question will certainly be how buzzkill prepared for it because I really do think it might not matter which end of ohms law you start with to create the same result... at least to some judge somewhere in probably California who doesn't know or care about the small differences, but will indeed be able to grasp the simple math involved.
I did a search and found the thread publicizing the first vv mod he desined.

Next generation PV's Coming soon !

It actually got me thinking which was the bigger leap. Fixed voltage mods to vv, or vv to vw. I actually think the former.

On his deal with Reo ; not what i meant. My question was if he has licensing arrangements with any vendors for use of vv tech, not whether he had a deal to provide chips for another vendor.

Checking his website, it seems that he hasn't really been active in the industry since that time. His products still use 2010 tech it seems.
 

f1vefour

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Fwiw.....most cell phones no longer have user replaceable batteries....the market doesn't seem to mind.

Oh we mind, we also mind if they have no expandable storage. Most phone manufacturers are trying to force you to upgrade after two years, it's not that we don't mind it's that they don't really care.

Samsung listens a bit, S5 (expandable storage, removable battery, water resistant)...S6 (none of these)...S7 (expendable storage, water resistant). They changed back because of a massive amount of blow back. Perhaps the S8 will even have a removable battery again.

It's why the Evolv updated the firmware to allow dual 18650, user complaints.
 

Daddy

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Both possibilities are highly unlikely. Usually only very large companies (e.g., Google) that are routinely involved in patent litigation have patent lawyers on staff. Also, AmLaw 100 firms like Baker & Hostetler typically do not handle contingency cases in patent litigation. Further, when the big bags of money are in China and enforcing payment of U.S. judgments in China is notoriously difficult, I just don't see anyone handling this on contingency.

Rather, what I'd point out is that even if the case ends up costing Evolv a few million dollars, compared to the size of the market it may make sense to proceed even if chances of winning are murky to unfavorable. Also, one should never disregard in litigation that isn't always about money, but also anger one party feels toward another. As such, just dragging people into court can bring its own satisfaction to some litigants.

I do agree that it is highly unlikely that Evolv has lawyers on staff or they found some to take it on contingency with an undoubtedly high percentage, but it could be a possibility.

To your second point, I simply do not understand why they would spend a few million dollars when damages likely are not that much IF they were to win. I read somewhere recently (perhaps in the court filing) that only 200,000 DNA 200 boards have been sold. If we take that at its face, and a "few million" to mean three million, Evolv would essentially be spending $15 per board sold on legal fees. Seems like a high cost for a ~$65 bulk order board.

I'm also not sure a small company like Evolv would go after a large international company like Joyetech out of personal vendetta. This does not make sense to me for a couple reasons but mainly financial reasons. Evolv could possibily go bankrupt because they didn't like the way JoyeTech's (vice?) president dealt with being informed of possible patent infringement? The second reason is, Evolv stated in the filing they were not willing to license the patent to JoyeTech BUT WOULD CONTINUE to sell them the DNA 200 board. So any personal vendetta can't be that bad.
 

USMCotaku

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Fully understood and capable myself. 40+years with Tools in hand as an Auto tech/DC Tech and Retail Automotive Electronics business owner.

That said, we are a Knowledgeable forum of almost 1/4 million members. Some missing in action, many New and a majority of Not Technically advanced Vapors. I'd Venture 10K or so that really enjoy, dig in and understand most aspects and have the capabilities to strip/ rebuild or even build from scratch if needed.

This number is but a Blip on the radar of total Vapers in the world today.

I try to understand, not assume or be Biased.:cool:
my post was actually a clarification that the mod in question is in fact a "built in" not a replaceable battery mod ;)

It is, in essence a "captive battery" mod, but a user serviceable one, as opposed to the many throw away devices that you toss once the battery fails.
 
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Rossum

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Fwiw.....most cell phones no longer have user replaceable batteries....the market doesn't seem to mind.
The cell phone market isn't doesn't have a sword hanging over its head either, i.e. nobody is worried whether they will be able to buy a suitable new one in a couple of years.

And a goodly portion of the phone market DOES mind, especially now, where its gotten to the point that a 2 year old phone isn't obsolete anymore. That hasn't quite happened with regulated mods yet, but I think we're getting close with the current generation.
 

USMCotaku

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WP_20160317_003.jpg


NEVER obsolete :w00t::lol::w00t::lol::w00t::lol::w00t::lol::w00t::lol::w00t:
 
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