I'm pretty sure he meant it as there is no such thing as variable wattage perse, it's really automatic variable voltage.That's like saying a manual transmission and an automatic transmission are the same thing.
Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !
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That's like saying a manual transmission and an automatic transmission are the same thing.
Couldn't have had an automatic without the prior art of the manual... but setting that aside, no. VV and VW are exactly the same thing. There are interesting differences in implementation, but scientifically and mathematically, they are the exact same thing. Add volts to a circuit with a resistor and that resistor has an increasing thermal discharge. Decrease volts in a circuit with a resistor and the opposite happens. ... VV and VW are the same. ... Now, if you'll call me when someone figures out how to make resistance infinitely variable instead of manipulating the electricity, then we can talk about how that isn't the same even though we get to use the same law and the same math.
Came back just for this picture.
NICE!!!
Have you seen mine?
Tapatyped
I don't believe I have....Came back just for this picture.
NICE!!!
Have you seen mine?
Tapatyped
They're only "the same" if the resistance of you coil never changes, but it does. That's the the point of VW, to compensate for changes in resistance; it changes with temperature, as the coil ages, and of course when the coil is replaced with a new one. VV allows you to compensate for the latter two manually, but you your brain and fingers will never be fast enough to compensate for the first.
Perhaps I'm injecting my personal bias; I have to concede that. Elements of Evolv's claim revolve around a patent that, to my line of thinking, uses elements that could be considered Prior Art and has enough vagueness to be challenged on validity. That perspective comes from watching the cases of infringement roll through on the Tech front, the majority of them instigated by holding companies, aka "trolls". I give Evolv the benefit of not lumping them as trolls as they are a manufacturer who is in the business of selling their products on the open market. So my bias and reading of the patent and filing lead me to conclude that challenging on first on validity would be the primary strategy for joyetech, presuming that it gets to trial.There's no such standard. Whether to focus on infringement or invalidity depends on the facts of the case, but Evolv first has to make a plausible argument of infringement. Otherwise, joyetech can file a motion for summary judgment on non-infringement and prevail. This pretty much puts the burden on Evolv regarding its infringement arguments right from the start. As for invalidity, that burden can largely be moved toward the end of discovery if desired. If you're client is a Fortune 500 company, things aren't done that way, but not every client is a Fortune 500 company.
As to jurisdiction, Evolv asserting that joyetech China and Wismec has substantial, systemic, and continuous contacts with California in that judicial district isn't sufficient. Rather, there will likely be an extensive period of limited discovery and motion practice solely on the subject of jurisdiction. In view of the Supreme Court's J. McIntyre and Goodyear cases, it can be actually quite difficult to establish personal jurisdiction over foreign companies.
As for jurisdiction issues, I'm sure that there will be several motions through the discovery process as to which defendants are covered under the filing, who is responsible for what, etc and ad naseum. Something Evolv's counsel has accounted for if they're even reasonably competent - which I'm presuming they are.
I'm working on the assumption - and a reasonable one, I believe - that this will not be a quickly resolved matter, even if a settlement is reached before getting to trial. Anything less than a year and I'll be gobsmacked.
You actually quoted me saying this in your previous reply:
"[...] Implementation is slightly different with VW capable of adjusting itself as the coil heats and cools changing its immediate resistance properties, but at the end of the day, it's the same thing."
It might be important to add to your understanding that micro-adjustment and resistance reporting rate was an afterthought. It wasn't the point to VW. It was just something the controller could be told to do, so why not?
Here is when Nuck's Fistpack was invented
And here is when buzzkill came up with vv by discussing vw . Yeah. VV is because of VW and VW is the same as VV... and it all happened right here on ecf.
Edit/Add... Arguably, if one reads the terms of service of ECF, it could in fact be that ECF owns VV/VW. Wouldn't *that* be an interesting wrinkle?
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that is saweeet.....and now I know where the coke lettering talk was coming from
Perhaps I'm injecting my personal bias; I have to concede that. Elements of Evolv's claim revolve around a patent that, to my line of thinking, uses elements that could be considered Prior Art and has enough vagueness to be challenged on validity. That perspective comes from watching the cases of infringement roll through on the Tech front, the majority of them instigated by holding companies, aka "trolls". I give Evolv the benefit of not lumping them as trolls as they are a manufacturer who is in the business of selling their products on the open market. So my bias and reading of the patent and filing lead me to conclude that challenging on first on validity would be the primary strategy for Joyetech, presuming that it gets to trial.
As for jurisdiction issues, I'm sure that there will be several motions through the discovery process as to which defendants are covered under the filing, who is responsible for what, etc and ad naseum. Something Evolv's counsel has accounted for if they're even reasonably competent - which I'm presuming they are.
I'm working on the assumption - and a reasonable one, I believe - that this will not be a quickly resolved matter, even if a settlement is reached before getting to trial. Anything less than a year and I'll be gobsmacked.
Yeah, I wouldn't expect a quick resolution. Just providing service via the Hague convention on the Chinese companies can take months by itself. From my point of view, Evolv's biggest issue is with proving infringement, because the language I highlighted is a pretty clear disclaimer. Based on that language, I could make an argument that even the DNA 200 is not covered by claim 1 of their '330 patent.
The main issue with invalidity is that it requires clear and convincing evidence. That's a very high standard, which means that a defendant's arguments on invalidity have to be highly compelling. As such, the non-infringement argument is always more important than the invalidity defense to a defendant, unless they have a weak non-infringement position.
Let's assume a $40 profit per board, at 200k units that would mean revenue of 8 million. More than enough to cover a patent lawsuit. Also, they may be hopeful that they can obtain a favorable settlement before the end of discovery, such that their legal expenses aren't as high. Finally, let's say that the RX-200 has sold or will sell 40k units, assuming lost profits of $40 each, that's 1.2 million. Again, that might be enough to possibly cover their expenses. Admittedly, I'm sort of throwing numbers around, but mostly I'm just trying to demonstrate that they likely have the money to cover a lawsuit and perhaps can recover on lost profits their expenses if they prevail. They also did ask for attorneys fees, but that's highly unlikely.
Two things I'd say from experience is that: 1) a complaint should never be taken at face value, as it is deliberately a biased document that only paints plaintiff's position in the most favorable light possible; and 2) never underestimate the power of emotion when it comes to litigation. I'm not saying that Evolv is being irrational, but to understand what is rational for Evolv also requires knowing the decision maker's mindset. Some people just care only about the dollars and cents, other's are hotheads, and the rest lie somewhere in between.
As this lawsuit may take a year or more before we see any outcome, we must gird our loins for this thread becoming a massive one. Perhaps now is the time to give the lawsuit it's own subforum, with appropriate threads for the main themes:
Joyetech is Evil
Evolv is Greedy
Lawyers are Bad
Prior Art
VV = VW
Vaping Will End as We Know It
Evolv Promised Not to Enforce
and of course
I'm Not an Attorney but I Think
I Don't Know the Details but I Think
I Didn't Read the Thread but I Think
I may have to get a second microwave and fire up the air popper just to keep up!
Joyetech is Evil
Evolv is Greedy
Lawyers are Bad
Prior Art
VV = VW
Vaping Will End as We Know It
Evolv Promised Not to Enforce
and of course
I'm Not an Attorney but I Think
I Don't Know the Details but I Think
I Didn't Read the Thread but I Think
I may have to get a second microwave and fire up the air popper just to keep up!
Well done sir!As this lawsuit may take a year or more before we see any outcome, we must gird our loins for this thread becoming a massive one. Perhaps now is the time to give the lawsuit it's own subforum, with appropriate threads for the main themes:
Joyetech is Evil
Evolv is Greedy
Lawyers are Bad
Prior Art
VV = VW
Vaping Will End as We Know It
Evolv Promised Not to Enforce
and of course
I'm Not an Attorney but I Think
I Don't Know the Details but I Think
I Didn't Read the Thread but I Think
I may have to get a second microwave and fire up the air popper just to keep up!
"Posts that make me feel out of my league".As this lawsuit may take a year or more before we see any outcome, we must gird our loins for this thread becoming a massive one. Perhaps now is the time to give the lawsuit it's own subforum, with appropriate threads for the main themes:
Joyetech is Evil
Evolv is Greedy
Lawyers are Bad
Prior Art
VV = VW
Vaping Will End as We Know It
Evolv Promised Not to Enforce
and of course
I'm Not an Attorney but I Think
I Don't Know the Details but I Think
I Didn't Read the Thread but I Think
I may have to get a second microwave and fire up the air popper just to keep up!
That was funny
Absolutely! What got me was a flashback of the air popper, where I wasn't sure if the exit schute was supposed to be that yellow color or if it was a buildup of too much diacetyl "butter".
Maybe we should have a patents forum. I think it's clear that as we head towards regulations there's going to be much, much more enforcement action. Also, I've been watching the patents for many years, there's some stuff out there that's really likely to force consolidations if granted and enforced.
Someone mentioned ECF and prior art: @six ? It might be good to get a project going and locating it where it exists on ECF. I have no problem with good non-obvious patents, but if patents granted to individual parties end up in the hands of those who wish to slow down or dominate our market then I do have a problem. I don't think that's in any way Evolv's intention, by the way - but other patents currently in the application process? Not so sure.
I think the sad fact is that the tobacco industry will pick much of this up and will get pretty nasty once regs are stabilised globally.
Someone mentioned ECF and prior art: @six ? It might be good to get a project going and locating it where it exists on ECF. I have no problem with good non-obvious patents, but if patents granted to individual parties end up in the hands of those who wish to slow down or dominate our market then I do have a problem. I don't think that's in any way Evolv's intention, by the way - but other patents currently in the application process? Not so sure.
I think the sad fact is that the tobacco industry will pick much of this up and will get pretty nasty once regs are stabilised globally.
That brings up an interesting thought, why has the tobacco industry not yet patented (or purchased patents) some vaping technology? That would be a sure way for them to limit and profit off of the market. They could essentially completely do away with vaping by controlling much of the technology. They most certainly have a research and development department and likely have lawyers on staff.
It would have to be awful tempting if they offered Evolv $50-$100M for the patents. No? Or other patent holders.
I cannot like this post because it is painful, but I must sadly agree. I suspect those with deep pockets are watching and preparing to place their bets on the winners.
Imperial owns the "Dragonite" patents and have settled out of court with many nationally distributed brands.
Greensmoke were purchased for a large sum, partly based on some IP they have. The founders of Greensmoke have a patent pending on TC.
I think Evolv will be offered large sums for their patents once they've been tested.
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