Evolv sues Joyetech over VW technology !

[Douggro]

I haven't read the entire thread but these parts of the suit seem to legitimize Evolv's case in my opinion:

I read all 24 pages as well & while not a lawyer it seems pretty apparent to me that Joytech admitted fault & knowingly infringed on the patent. Seems about as clear as a legal document can be to me at least. It's too bad those who are defending Joytech & accusing Evolv of patent trolling as well as potentially suing everyone else in the industry haven't done the same before commenting.

Your two boys, 6 and 4, are out playing when suddenly the 4 year-old comes in bleeding from the head like crazy and crying. "Johnny hit me with the baseball bat!" says he. You go out and belt-whip Johnny without ever hearing his side of the story, based solely on what little Timmy said.
You later find out that while Johnny did indeed hit Timmy with the bat, it was because Timmy ran right into it and Johnny never saw him.

The filing is Evolv's side of the story. They're going to try to paint a picture of having good cause in the filing so that it is accepted by the court. JT's response to the notification of infringement is not an admission of guilt per se. (I think I covered this in a previous response..) The question of any admission of potential infringement will be determined in court through testimony from both sides. "Presumed innocent until proven otherwise" seems to have gotten lost..

 

[fishwater]

Your two boys, 6 and 4, are out playing when suddenly the 4 year-old comes in bleeding from the head like crazy and crying. "Johnny hit me with the baseball bat!" says he. You go out and belt-whip Johnny without ever hearing his side of the story, based solely on what little Timmy said.
You later find out that while Johnny did indeed hit Timmy with the bat, it was because Timmy ran right into it and Johnny never saw him.

The filing is Evolv's side of the story. They're going to try to paint a picture of having good cause in the filing so that it is accepted by the court. JT's response to the notification of infringement is not an admission of guilt per se. (I think I covered this in a previous response..) The question of any admission of potential infringement will be determined in court through testimony from both sides. "Presumed innocent until proven otherwise" seems to have gotten lost..

Interesting that you neglected to use my follow up post where I mentioned that I am interested in hearing Joytech's side but OK. Using your analogy...
What if Johnny had a past history of hitting his brother with a bat & was repeatedly warned not to do that or there would be consequences? Is it OK to whip him? While I would never "whip" one of my children they are fully aware that there are consequences to their actions & that regardless of other people's actions they are held responsible for their own.

 

[Marc411]

Back to my point about Joytech, they are not producing quality but quantity, you can do both but (IMO) they choose not too.

I'm not sure that this statement is necessarily true.

I can only speak to my personal experience and what I've seen/read on the net (taken with a grain of salt). I own Yihi, Wismec and DNA devices. Of the DNA devices I own each had to be returned due to quality issues and one Hana DNA still doesn't work in TL to this day. The screen still glitches above 20W and I got tired of mailing devices back and forth, it works fine in power mod. The Yihi and Wismec devices have not had the same issues and have worked correctly out of the gate.

Only time will tell if they can go the distance but right now they have been far less of a hassle than the Evolv chips I own at a much lower price point. I love my Flasks and have to say that the Vape Forward group has taken excellent care of me with the issues I had but I can't say the same about Evolv.

Evolv speaks about their quality but it's a revisionist history, the DNA 40 was a disaster and they used us as beta testers. For that reason alone I will not buy another Evolv device.

 

[fishwater]

I'm not sure that this statement is necessarily true.

I can only speak to my personal experience and what I've seen/read on the net (taken with a grain of salt). I own Yihi, Wismec and DNA devices. Of the DNA devices I own each had to be returned due to quality issues and one Hana DNA still doesn't work in TL to this day. The screen still glitches above 20W and I got tired of mailing devices back and forth, it works fine in power mod. The Yihi and Wismec devices have not had the same issues and have worked correctly out of the gate.

Only time will tell if they can go the distance but right now they have been far less of a hassle than the Evolv chips I own at a much lower price point. I love my Flasks and have to say that the Vape Forward group has taken excellent care of me with the issues I had but I can't say the same about Evolv.

Evolv speaks about their quality but it's a revisionist history, the DNA 40 was a disaster and they used us as beta testers. For that reason alone I will not buy another Evolv device.

While I agree with most of your points, my argument is not that the chip in question will be an issue on the Joyetech products although I personally find it doesn't perform to my expectations. It's the rest of the mods that I feel aren't of quality such as sub par wiring, thinner than necessary gauge wiring, poor 510 connections & known repeated failures of these products based on combinations as I noted above.
Yes, most of us are well aware of the DNA 40 failures & the feeling of being used as beta testers but there are plenty of people who also feel like beta testers with Joytech products. In fact as I was at my local shop yesterday the manager kind of chuckled at the lawsuit & showed me (in his words) yet another RX200 that failed brand new out of the box & that he has no recourse through Joytech so he has to make right with his distributor.
For my money while I'm no Evolv fan boy I do feel mods using their chip tend to have overall better quality construction that lends to a longer lifespan. Also let's not forget that while the DNA 40 had numerous problems it was at the beginning stages of TC vaping, the 200 is far more solid according to most modders using it, never mind the fact that Evolv backs it up with a 1 year warranty regardless of who installs it in what mod. I've yet to encounter Joytech or anyone else offer the same warranty.

 

[Marc411]

I will agree that the resources for failed devices are different but that it is not any better or worse than the DNA devices overall. And they warranty for a year but what a huge PITA they make using the warranty and I speak from personal experience.

Getting off of the original topic a bit but lifespan is also questionable. I bought the second release of the istick 50, a couple of them for dragging outdoors since I hunt and fish. I got everything I could out of them until the batteries would no longer take a charge. They lasted well beyond what I anticipated for an internal battery device and performed flawlessly, two of them are still rocking after more than a year of use. I own 28 devices and of those I've only had a problem with one, a Yihi chip that the supplier took care of immediately. Again, I love my Flask's but not really a big fan of the Evolv team.

It will be interesting to see how the suit falls out in the end. I believe that they are hurting the industry overall but that's my personal feeling. The timing is pretty poor with everything we are currently fighting in the industry right now. It doesn't appear to me that getting people off of smokes is their true goal or they would be working to put affordable chips into the market for people that can't afford high end gear. Now one of the one suppliers that is nicely filling that niche will be in litigation. It just seems wrong!

In the end this suit is nothing more than Evolv losing market share on their device because Joytech built an affordable device. If Evolv really cared about the consumer they would get back to the engineering drawing board and design a chip that could be competitive while maintaining their higher end chip.

 

[crxess]

Evolv offered to negotiate such a license in order to mitigate the harm that would result from a flood of Joyetech and Wismec’s pirated products being imported into the United States, as at the time the license was offered,

How much do you need us pay for each licensed products…?” 87

Evolv replied as follows in relevant part, “Evolv is not willing to sell or license its patent.

Time to start polishing My Mech's

 

[Asbestos4004]

Interesting that you neglected to use my follow up post where I mentioned that I am interested in hearing Joytech's side but OK. Using your analogy...
What if Johnny had a past history of hitting his brother with a bat & was repeatedly warned not to do that or there would be consequences? Is it OK to whip him? While I would never "whip" one of my children they are fully aware that there are consequences to their actions & that regardless of other people's actions they are held responsible for their own.

I'd whip my kid...but he's 6'5", 270 lbs and heavily involved in MMA. I doubt it'd go well....

fairly certain it's the steroids pumped into the chickens to make the clone McNuggets he adored as a kid. At 19, he still loves em but he needs more ketchup.

 

[crxess]

Fun side note....you can tell the Republicans from the Democrats by reading this thread.

I might fool you.

It doesn't appear to me that getting people off of smokes is their true goal or they would be working to put affordable chips into the market for people that can't afford high end gear.

Honestly, never met a Business man who's ultimate goal was giving anything away. First priority is survival and as an ex-business owner, I learned that the hard way.

As much as we'd like it to be different, it's unfortunately not logical from a business point of view.

 

[f1vefour]

Time to start polishing My Mech's

I said this previously, I just didn't quote the filing.

Joyetech ...... Evolv off, now they are taking their ball and going home. You can feel the animosity in the filing, it's all the irrelevant references.

 

[Robert Cromwell]

Time to start polishing My Mech's

Naah just order thru FT.
Even if Evolve wins it will only impact US domestic sales or large scale importation.

 

[Daddy]

It will be interesting to see how the suit falls out in the end. I believe that they are hurting the industry overall but that's my personal feeling. The timing is pretty poor with everything we are currently fighting in the industry right now. It doesn't appear to me that getting people off of smokes is their true goal or they would be working to put affordable chips into the market for people that can't afford high end gear. Now one of the one suppliers that is nicely filling that niche will be in litigation. It just seems wrong!

Cost is relative. About 20 years ago I recall both my parents spending upwards $1,000 USD to be hypnotized to be tobacco free. As expected the hypnosis failed and they remained hooked on cigs.

The point is, if someone told a current smoker I 100% guarantee I can get you smoke free for a ~$150 device, that ~$150 device now doesn't seem so expensive.

The "I can't afford it" argument doesn't sit well with me. And while Evolv may own the "high end" chip market the devices the chips are in are very much affordable to those determined to get off and stay off tobacco.

 

[f1vefour]

Cost is relative. About 20 years ago I recall both my parents spending upwards $1,000 USD to be hypnotized to be tobacco free. As expected the hypnosis failed and they remained hooked on cigs.

The point is, if someone told a current smoker I 100% guarantee I can get you smoke free for a ~$150 device, that ~$150 device now doesn't seem so expensive.

The "I can't afford it" argument doesn't sit well with me. And while Evolv may own the "high end" chip market the devices the chips are in are very much affordable to those determined to get off and stay off tobacco.

That wouldn't be an accurate truth, you still must purchase juice, coils, wicking, wire...etc.

Many spend more vaping vs smoking, I quit making the money savings argument long ago. I stick with the health argument, can't put a price on living longer.

 

[Marc411]

Cost is relative. About 20 years ago I recall both my parents spending upwards $1,000 USD to be hypnotized to be tobacco free. As expected the hypnosis failed and they remained hooked on cigs.

The point is, if someone told a current smoker I 100% guarantee I can get you smoke free for a ~$150 device, that ~$150 device now doesn't seem so expensive.

The "I can't afford it" argument doesn't sit well with me. And while Evolv may own the "high end" chip market the devices the chips are in are very much affordable to those determined to get off and stay off tobacco.

First there are no guarantee's with a smoker. I own a decent mod and work was absolutely insane last week. I almost bummed a smoke from one of the guys I work with because I was stressed.

The "I can't afford it" isn't an argument it is a reality. There are people that just can't afford dropping $150 in one clip but can swing $7.50 for a pack of smokes and stretch it for a couple days. I have guys that work for me that I sometimes mix for as it get's close to payday that do vape. Not everyone has the extra cash to cover the expense on even some of the medium priced mods.

 

[skoony]

That wouldn't be an accurate truth, you still must purchase juice, coils, wicking, wire...etc.

Many spend more vaping vs smoking, I quit making the money savings argument long ago. I stick with the health argument, can't put a price on living longer.

I use the money argument when all else fails. Cost when smoking
=$15.00 a day. Cost of vaping = $0.40 cents in juice.(when bought retail locally)
People around here start to get it when you talk money. You can pay what
you want for a car. Some may balk at the cost. When you tell them what kind
of mileage you get then they get interested.
Regards
Mike

 

[f1vefour]

I use the money argument when all else fails. Cost when smoking
=$15.00 a day. Cost of vaping = $0.40 cents in juice.(when bought retail locally)
People around here start to get it when you talk money. You can pay what
you want for a car. Some may balk at the cost. When you tell them what kind
of mileage you get then they get interested.
Regards
Mike

I know a lot of people who vape 30+ ml a day, I don't but apparently it's not uncommon.

Most of the juice I have is $20+ for 30ml, I pay a little less per day than smoking but including atomizers and mods per year I about break even.

 

[skoony]

I know a lot of people who vape 30+ ml a day, I don't but apparently it's not uncommon.

Most of the juice I have is $20+ for 30ml, I pay a little less per day than smoking but including atomizers and mods per year I about break even.

That is a lot. It almost sounds like one would have to work at it.
Check out the stats on my banner. I quit 07-24-2013. i have spent maybe
$1000 to $1200 on vaping.
Mike

 

[Marc411]

Skoony, I thought Illinois was bad but you guys are getting killed at $15 a pack.

$7.50 here if you get out of Cook County.

 

[Daddy]

The point is, the argument that Evolv's board is unaffordable is mute.

First there are no guarantee's with a smoker. I own a decent mod and work was absolutely insane last week. I almost bummed a smoke from one of the guys I work with because I was stressed.

The "I can't afford it" isn't an argument it is a reality. There are people that just can't afford dropping $150 in one clip but can swing $7.50 for a pack of smokes and stretch it for a couple days. I have guys that work for me that I sometimes mix for as it get's close to payday that do vape. Not everyone has the extra cash to cover the expense on even some of the medium priced mods.

I am not saying there is a magic guarantee that will work with smokers. I am saying that smokers who wish to quit the habit often spend several hundreds or thousands of dollars doing so. Certainly much more then an $80 board or a ~$150 "high end" device.

 

[Daddy]

That is a lot. It almost sounds like one would have to work at it.
Check out the stats on my banner. I quit 07-24-2013. i have spent maybe
$1000 to $1200 on vaping.
Mike

I vape about 20 ML per day of 1MG nic DIY juice.

I started vaping June 2015 and have spent well over $1,000 on equipment. I decided early on with vaping that I would figure juice out, since it was expensive and the consumable. With the extra money "saved" on juice I've blown on hardware. Vaping has become a sort of hobby and "collecting" to me. Most of the stuff I have sits unused in a desk drawer.

 

[Daddy]

Skoony, I thought Illinois was bad but you guys are getting killed at $15 a pack.

$7.50 here if you get out of Cook County.

Maybe he was a 2 pack a day smoker?