expensive mods

[JQside]

Things like these are bound to happen. Of course, we know exactly how much they are worth in reality. They shouldn't cost as much as vaccum clearners or coffee-makers, electric drills or even a netbook. Until some company mass produces them, the price at this point can be anything as long as people are willing to buy them.

;-)

 

[Zelish]

i orderd my first vv the other day (The buzz pro!!) i can wait to get it.
i do not think it was all that expencive i think my first 510 was at 100 usd.

 

[JQside]

It shouldn't only be about voltages and resistances and battery life. By now it should also be about easy refilling, like tank systems, or small bottles you can just pop inside the case and you're ready to go for a day or two. It should also be about easy-to-clean parts, burnt taste eliminated, very basic things.

Update: I was ordering a Vapage V-mod kit the other day. I added spare batteries in the cart, atomizers, empty bottles. But I decided to order two instead and removed the spare parts, which I figured to be a bit cheaper. Newsflash: you can't order two. I checked the site a day later if they have the stock already and found out that they're out of stock. Meaning you can't even order one.

But I have changed my mind and probably wait for some better mod to come up that fits my needs. I realized it's a luxury item for me at this point.

 

[wv2win]

......All that's left is sticking it in a case. I could put these guts into a high strength shatter proof plastic tube, make it look as nice as the Provari and sell it a lot cheaper. I could put these guts in a stainless steel tube too and still have it be lots cheaper.

If I can do that, and one would think a key factor in mass production is to keep cost down then how do 200 dollar production models justify the price? If anything, they should be the same price or cheaper than the mod I could make. They even have wholesale buying power on parts. Sure some have more features than others or fancier details they charge for. The bottom line is when it's all said and done a 200 dollar mod is not really worth 200 dollars................

So you are saying that you could build a PV with the features and look of say a Provari or GLV, make say 500 of them, order all the parts and personally put them together, have them available all at the same time, market them so people know that they are available, get them sent out in a timely manner, be able to handle returns and warranty work in a timely manner, be able to answer questions by phone and email daily during the week, cover your liability insurance costs and all at a fraction of the cost of these models? And there's about 10 other items I could easily add to this list. I guess Steve Jobs would be considered a "slacker" in comparison.

 

[John Phoenix]

So you are saying that you could build a PV with the features and look of say a Provari or GLV, make say 500 of them, order all the parts and personally put them together, have them available all at the same time, market them so people know that they are available, get them sent out in a timely manner, be able to handle returns and warranty work in a timely manner, be able to answer questions by phone and email daily during the week, cover your liability insurance costs and all at a fraction of the cost of these models? And there's about 10 other items I could easily add to this list. I guess Steve Jobs would be considered a "slacker" in comparison.

Of course I never claimed I could do that. The folks who make Provari don't do that with one guy either. BUT the savings they should get in mass production should offset the extra few people it takes to do that work of 500 units. That's why people mass produce, so they can be more competitive. The production model could still be cheaper without sacrificing quality. If a point comes when the mass production causes the price to be extra high ( it actually has an opposite and detrimental effect on competition) then I'd say somewhere that company is doing something very wrong. You nor I know what those costs actually are for the Provari folks. We are just speculating but a mass produced product should by it's nature be cheaper.

 

[wv2win]

Of course I never claimed I could do that. The folks who make Provari don't do that with one guy either. BUT the savings they should get in mass production should offset the extra few people it takes to do that work of 500 units. That's why people mass produce, so they can be more competitive. The production model could still be cheaper without sacrificing quality. If a point comes when the mass production causes the price to be extra high ( it actually has an opposite and detrimental effect on competition) then I'd say somewhere that company is doing something very wrong. You nor I know what those costs actually are for the Provari folks. We are just speculating but a mass produced product should by it's nature be cheaper.

Incorrect. You basically stated JUST what I said you stated:

“I could put these guts in a stainless steel tube too and still have it be lots cheaper.”…….. “The bottom line is when it's all said and done a 200 dollar mod is not really worth 200 dollars”...

And to follow up on your "mass production" theory of making the model less expensive: what level of production is required to reach this "less expensive" model - 500, 1000, 5000, 10,000? And how much up front capital does one need to manufacture this many units and at what cost in financing? How many does one have to sell and in what time frame before the cost of the upfront money exceeds the profit made on the units and turns the business into a loss?

It's real easy to state: the Provari, for example, is "overpriced" because someone can make a so-called similar one in their garage for less. Or state that by "mass producing" (what ever that equates to) they could be sold for much less. Stepping away from "generalities" and providing specifics to prove these statements, is something no one has done in this discussion.

 

[AlmightyGod]

Building ONE device (on your own time) might be a less expensive endeavor than purchasing one from a retail establishment. Building 100's or 1000's (expecting compensation for your time) is a different animal. When a person goes into business, they expect to make a profit. Are they making excessive profit? Define excessive. A company charging more for their product/service than what they are giving in value won't continue to exist. Profit isn't considered excessive until it exceeds the value of the product or service. While some may not find value in a high end device, others may not find value in a low end device. Think Wally-World vs Macy's, Hyundai vs Mercedes, Keds vs Nike, Timex vs Rolex, etc. Personally, I like shiny whizz-bang devices, but I can understand why others find value in the cheapest device they can buy which still works. For some people it's all about the nic, while for some it's about the hobby. I have a little of both worlds in rebuildable atomizers. The device wasn't cheap, but I can make my own coil for about 10 cents.

 

[tj99959]

I don't tie flies because it's cheaper than ordering them from Cabela's. I do it because it is fun.
The same is true for making my own mods. I'll get a hairbrain idea, and then can't wait to get it laid out on a project board to see how it works.
So please don't tell my wife about all the mod parts I've bought that didn't work.

Maybe DIY isn't as cheap as some think.

The R&D time and money spent on developing a production mod is no different.
Just look at the delays in getting the Lavatube to market. I think you can forget about a $60.00 price tag.

 

[bnrkwest]

All in all I still think any priced PV high end or lower end is worth it. It keeps us from spending tons of money on tobacco and making big tobacco rich. I will gladly give my money to an ecig maker any day and reap the benefits of vaping vs smoking which in the end is the most expensive when you add in health problems. So keep on keeping on mod builders and giving us what we want for performance. In ecigs you can get an economy style or high end product. Plus if you have some talent you can make your own. I say that is so cool! LOL

 

[zachgr]

All in all I still think any priced PV high end or lower end is worth it. It keeps us from spending tons of money on tobacco and making big tobacco rich. I will gladly give my money to an ecig maker any day and reap the benefits of vaping vs smoking which in the end is the most expensive when you add in health problems. So keep on keeping on mod builders and giving us what we want for performance. In ecigs you can get an economy style or high end product. Plus if you have some talent you can make your own. I say that is so cool! LOL

I agree with this.

 

[Roi]

I couldn't have said it better myself. I didn't just save enough money by quitting analogs to buy a huge collection of the most expensive mods out there, I probably added many years to my *life*. Hey! If you've stopped smoking and started vaping, reward yourself.

 

[throatkick]

Things can be made complex or simple.

My simple comment involving mods:

About 10 months ago, (when I first started really vaping) I realized there were many aspects that could use improvement. I tried very hard to design these improvements and even got help from engineers. It was a complete and total flop. It was expensive, they lied, did very little and the manufacturing in China was a disaster. So, expensive or not, at least they accomplished something.

I still have some ideas about improvements so if anyone has the ability to implement them....PM me.

 

[Goldenkobold]

It's real easy to state: the Provari, for example, is "overpriced" because someone can make a so-called similar one in their garage for less. Or state that by "mass producing" (what ever that equates to) they could be sold for much less. Stepping away from "generalities" and providing specifics to prove these statements, is something no one has done in this discussion.

We have been providing specifics since before you made your first post, you just fail to read or like to insert made up numbers into the conversation to confound the issue. The lavatube (or power VV as I believe its called on the global level) is a prime example of true mass production lowering cost. I am not even sure the Darwin is produced on that large of a scale, it has one retailer on the planet as far as I know and I have never seen him have hundreds in stock.

You asked a series of questions that had little to no relevance on the example already given so I ignored it as I assumed if you couldn't derive this information yourself you never would, or that you had and were just being difficult, but lets address them.

Do you have any concept of the start-up costs for a small business in comparison to a large corporation that has been in business for years and how that affects product cost? How about the cost of labor from one region of the country to another or from one country to another? How about the safety and legal reguirements that must be satisfied in one country versus another?

Both of these address some guy trying to build a mod or even some new chinese company moving into the market, but neither seem to understand the more likely scenario is that one of the existing globally active electronic cigarette manufacturing companies will just decide they will wedge themselves into the mod market and use already existing supply chains to do so. They already have wholesale contacts in the USA, Canada, Spain, U.k., Italy, probably the rest of the E.U., and whatever they have in Asia.

This Scenario is playing out now with a company that developed a Provari like device, using the lower cost of manufacturing, its already existing R&D and manufacturing capabilities, and its already existing relationship and knowledge of vendors across the globe. Then contacted its already existing global contacts and offered the unit for a competitive price, at least 3 suppliers have signed on to this that we know of (we being the people who have followed it for a bit, and who don't live in the new members forum), meaning before the first unit goes out it has preorders for at a minimum 1,500 units.

This is more than just some thought experiment its a description of how its moving along right now, the end result is a device that sales from the manufacturer for 30 dollars each. Is it a Provari clone? No its aluminum vs SS, it uses a larger battery by default, and I don't think it has atty ohm detectors on it (a rather gimmicky feature since, unlike the darwin, the provari doesn't actually do anything with that knowledge and you adjust to taste anyway), yet I doubt those two saving account for the $120 dollar difference between the devices (more if you try and upgrade the provari to use a comparable battery). Seeing as the Provari is made domestically and has no middle man supply chain you would expect it to be able to at least compete with the Lavatube post-shipping post-middle man mark up, but it is in fact twice the price of the projected costs of the Lavatube.

This is what I meant when I said China will make similar units with similar tech (at least from the users point of view) for less and what I meant by mass produced. It will take about 30 days to see the end result of this (I think 17 days from now these go on sale in the U.S., perhaps earlier in Europe). We can come back then and compare notes.

 

[JQside]

Things can be made complex or simple.

My simple comment involving mods:

About 10 months ago, (when I first started really vaping) I realized there were many aspects that could use improvement. I tried very hard to design these improvements and even got help from engineers. It was a complete and total flop. It was expensive, they lied, did very little and the manufacturing in China was a disaster. So, expensive or not, at least they accomplished something.

I still have some ideas about improvements so if anyone has the ability to implement them....PM me.

I don't have any ability to implement improvement. But I suggest you bring someone in your team who have been smoking for years. Otherwise, they won't understand what you're talking about. They will be like these companies entering the business trying to make a quick buck. They will only focus on the aesthetics, or shininess.

You might want to improve on what's already available, the GLV, V-mod, or anything similar.

Three basic things: portability, reasonable battery lfe and easy refilling system. And maybe with a self-cleaning device later. Of course, most of the e-cigs are portable. The biggest one is probably no bigger than a standard screwdriver. Portable in this case means something you can hide in the palm of your hand. And this can only be accomplished with a box-type mod, the size of which may be slightly bigger than a match or lighter. Which means tank and battery inside the case. Battery life is solved by making them removable. You can then bring spares with you.

Man, I can't vape in public holding a huge screwdriver or a long pen that sticks out on both sides of my hand. Those devices are for home use only.

Thanks for the effort.

;-)

 

[chuckie]

Like many fairly new vapours I have spent an awful lot of money trying to find the perfect PV and juices. One thing has struck me above others and that is the price of many mods. If you take a tube mod it is a tube with a little circutry and a button to press, more or less the same as a torch or a childs battery operated toy. Why then is it I can buy a torch or toy for around ten dollars but a mod can easily cost up to $200! Now I am all for people making a decent profit but I cant help feeling more than a little ripped off sometimes. Today I recieved a little sister mod and I am the first to say that it works really really well. It is however made of a very flimsy plastic and a tiny wobbly switch so whilst it works well now I am not at all sure that it will last more than a few weeks at most. It has a bic lighter body but not as sturdy. I know it is a decent PV but in no other area do we pay $60+ for a bit of plastic and electronics. You can buy a cell phone for less and that is far more sturdy and has more complicated electronics. I realise they are not made in the same numbers as the other items but I still feel we are over paying for these items

Glad you figured it out. Sellers will get what they can,If the public isn't smart enough to know better than it's their fault. The madvapes vv was a good recomondation.If you can touch a soldering iron to 4 different spots you'd be surprised at what you can build for about 10$.

 

[wv2win]

Voltage regulators, variable voltage are available in 50 dollar flash lights and have been for...at least 4 years now. Now the Darwin and Provari (with its single battery booster, also found in flash lights) deserve some credit for incorporating such tech into the vaping world, but they are still relatively overpriced to similar tech....

Again, you keep running away from your own comments. You are clearly stating that $50 flashlights are the same as the Darwin and Provai and that these two PV's are overpriced. But you DO NOT support those statements with facts that can be verified. Can you prove that the "tech" is exactly the same? Do you know what the components of the these two PV's actually cost? Do you know what the costs were for these two small buinesses to actually "start" the business from scratch which must be built into the cost of the product? I don't actually expect you to answer these questions because you have failed to do so throughout this discussion. When you can't backup your accusations with facts, then you are just blowing hot air, which is all you do. So no, you have provided no facts to support your "overpriced" comments.

We have been providing specifics since before you made your first post, you just fail to read or like to insert made up numbers into the conversation to confound the issue. The lavatube (or power VV as I believe its called on the global level) is a prime example of true mass production lowering cost. I am not even sure the Darwin is produced on that large of a scale, it has one retailer on the planet as far as I know and I have never seen him have hundreds in stock.

You asked a series of questions that had little to no relevance on the example already given so I ignored it as I assumed if you couldn't derive this information yourself you never would, or that you had and were just being difficult, but lets address them.


Both of these address some guy trying to build a mod or even some new chinese company moving into the market, but neither seem to understand the more likely scenario is that one of the existing globally active electronic cigarette manufacturing companies will just decide they will wedge themselves into the mod market and use already existing supply chains to do so. They already have wholesale contacts in the USA, Canada, Spain, U.k., Italy, probably the rest of the E.U., and whatever they have in Asia.

This Scenario is playing out now with a company that developed a Provari like device, using the lower cost of manufacturing, its already existing R&D and manufacturing capabilities, and its already existing relationship and knowledge of vendors across the globe. Then contacted its already existing global contacts and offered the unit for a competitive price, at least 3 suppliers have signed on to this that we know of (we being the people who have followed it for a bit, and who don't live in the new members forum), meaning before the first unit goes out it has preorders for at a minimum 1,500 units.

This is more than just some thought experiment its a description of how its moving along right now, the end result is a device that sales from the manufacturer for 30 dollars each. Is it a Provari clone? No its aluminum vs SS, it uses a larger battery by default, and I don't think it has atty ohm detectors on it (a rather gimmicky feature since, unlike the darwin, the provari doesn't actually do anything with that knowledge and you adjust to taste anyway), yet I doubt those two saving account for the $120 dollar difference between the devices (more if you try and upgrade the provari to use a comparable battery). Seeing as the Provari is made domestically and has no middle man supply chain you would expect it to be able to at least compete with the Lavatube post-shipping post-middle man mark up, but it is in fact twice the price of the projected costs of the Lavatube.

This is what I meant when I said China will make similar units with similar tech (at least from the users point of view) for less and what I meant by mass produced. It will take about 30 days to see the end result of this (I think 17 days from now these go on sale in the U.S., perhaps earlier in Europe). We can come back then and compare notes.

So you are basing your inferrances that there are better models available at a lower cost that may, may not be, who knows - be as good or better than the Provari and Darwin BUT it hasn't even made it to the market yet!!!!! And you believe that supports your "overpriced" comments about the Provari and Darwin. What a waste of time. All of your long posts based on a PV that doesn't even exist. I'm sure you followed the Eclipse release with "baited breath" also. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.

 

[Victoryrider]

I don't really get the mod thing. I just can't see anything working bett than an ego. Plenty of vape. Plenty of battery life. Small, good looking. I can see the fun in building your own mod, I might do that myself, but I don't see the point in buying one.

 

[Goldenkobold]

No my posts were based off of the superior manufacturing capabilities of a large manufacturer vs the small scale production employed by the current mods, I can't believe this has escaped you so I am assuming your just being difficult. You asked for an example of "how" so I gave you one, not as a unit per unit comparison but for a "how" it would be done.

Because you stated "Stepping away from "generalities" and providing specifics to prove these statements, is something no one has done in this discussion."

You asked how it could be done, obviously I answered that, I think I answered all your rather off the mark questions as well.

 

[AlmightyGod]

Correction: by the time the "EQ" got to market, it couldn't be called the "Eclipse".

The EQ is dead...just like God.
(That's a literary reference for anyone not knowing.)

 

[JQside]

I don't really get the mod thing. I just can't see anything working bett than an ego. Plenty of vape. Plenty of battery life. Small, good looking. I can see the fun in building your own mod, I might do that myself, but I don't see the point in buying one.

Yeah. For home use all the e-cigs that are available right now are just fine. They can be as big as a phone or as small as a real cigarette. You can charge their batteries any time you want at home without carrying any charger.

If you travel and vape in public, they need to be inconspicuous and last at least a day without refilling.

;-)