FDA Extremely well done (and not yet available) FDA comment

[Kent C]

No Arguments with the Tar and Combustibles of Burning tobacco. As to the Nicotine?

Also Causing Cancer and Hampering the Bodies Ability to Fight Off a Cancer are Two Different Things.

Some Believe that Smoking Cigarettes is a 1 to 2 Punch. That the Buring of the tobacco Increases the Likelihood that you Will Develop Cancer. And then the Burring of the tobacco, And the Nicotine, reduces the Bodies ability to Fight Off the Growing Cancer.

That's a stretch and more junk science from those who want to stop all smoking or vaping. A good case could be made for nicotine being an overall plus for humans and animals that eat tobacco because of other benefits. If it helps end the discussion I'll give you 'Black and an 'off-white' like light cream or eggshell.

 

[zoiDman]

That's a stretch and more junk science from those who want to stop all smoking or vaping. A good case could be made for nicotine being an overall plus for humans and animals that eat tobacco because of other benefits. If it helps end the discussion I'll give you 'Black and an 'off-white' like light cream or eggshell.

There has been Studies that have shown that Nicotine can have Beneficial Affects.

But one must Evaluate if those Benefits Actually Apply to the User. I don't have Alzheimer's. Or at least I Can't Remember coming down with it. But If I did, Nicotine might be Something that I had a Different Perspective on.

And there is No Argument that Junk Science or Incomplete Science has been used to Bolster a Position. Either Against, of For, the Overall Benefit to the Average User of Nicotine.

The Thing I just don't like Sometimes is the Benchmarking a Substance to ONLY Causing Cancer. There is a Multitude of Health Issues that a Substance may Cause or Contribute to (Arterial Hardening, Heart Disease, Enhanced Tumor Growth, etc) besides Causing Cancer.

And with Nicotine and Tobacco, the Method of Delivery has an Immense Importance on Causality and Health.

BTW - It is a Shame that Nicotine has to the Fall Guy for All the Evils that Cigarette Smoking Causes. And I wish someone at the CDC and FDA would start the Conversation about the Role of the "Added" Chemicals that are Put into Cigarettes. Those FDA Approved Chemicals.

BTW - Black and an "Off-White". I like it. LOL

 

[dragonpuff]

For the record, nicotine has been shown to have a few harmful effects - it does increase heart rate and blood pressure in the short term, when can lead to a minor increase in health problems in the long run if used regularly. Also, a recent study came out showing that nicotine may impair the body's ability to fight off cancer, but the jury's still out on exactly how and to what extent.

There is no such thing as a perfect drug.

That said, the benefits of nicotine are still far greater and more numerous than the drawbacks, and any sensible physician would still recommend nicotine for certain ailments despite the risks. It is still far safer than most drug treatments on the market today, and I personally think that, because of it's low risk profile, it should be a first line treatment.

It is quite unfortunate that more dangerous drugs get preference simply because there's more money to be made from them.

 

[Kent C]

I don't have Alzheimer's. Or at least I Can't Remember coming down with it.

That's priceless.

Perhaps one of your best lines

 

[zoiDman]

...

That said, the benefits of nicotine are still far greater and more numerous than the drawbacks, ...

That, is Highly Debatable.

And would be a Very Difficult Argument to Apply to a General Population.

 

[zoiDman]

That's priceless.

Perhaps one of your best lines

Hey you know me Kent. I try to Keep It Lite.

 

[dragonpuff]

Diseases that nicotine can treat, just off the top of my head:
Alzheimer's and other dementias, Parkinson's and other dyskinesias, schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders, mood and anxiety disorders, attention and dissociative disorders, Crohn's disease.

There are more, certainly, but these are just the ones I know of for sure

Keep in mind that these are all illnesses that are difficult or impossible to treat with current medical technology.

 

[Kent C]

Diseases that nicotine can treat, just off the top of my head:
Alzheimer's and other dementias, Parkinson's and other dyskinesias, schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders, mood and anxiety disorders, attention and dissociative disorders, Crohn's disease.

There are more, certainly, but these are just the ones I know of for sure

Rh. Arthritis - it's an anti-inflammatory. Two Swiss studies on this. The heaviest smokers had less pain.

 

[Kent C]

Hey you know me Kent. I try to Keep It Lite.

That, you do.

 

[zoiDman]

Diseases that nicotine can treat, just off the top of my head:
Alzheimer's and other dementias, Parkinson's and other dyskinesias, schizophrenia and other psychotic disorders, mood and anxiety disorders, attention and dissociative disorders, Crohn's disease.

There are more, certainly, but these are just the ones I know of for sure

Keep in mind that these are all illnesses that are difficult or impossible to treat with current medical technology.

And for those Afflicted with those Diseases, ingestion of Nicotine may Out Weigh any Adverse Effects that Nicotine can Cause.

But can the Same be said for those who Are Not Afflicted with those Diseases?

And what is the Population Deferential of those having the Diseases you Mentioned to those who Do Not?

 

[dragonpuff]

And for those Afflicted with those Diseases, ingestion of Nicotine may Out Weigh any Adverse Effects that Nicotine can Cause.

But can the Same be said for those who Are Not Afflicted with those Diseases?

And what is the Population Deferential of those having the Diseases you Mentioned to those who Do Not?

Almost 50% of the population is afflicted with a mental disorder at some point in their lives. Nicotine has been shown to treat most mental disorders, or at least be a useful adjunct to treatment. So, nicotine would be quite useful for a large portion of the population, whether it be for temporary or long-term treatment.

And that is just the mental illnesses. That is not counting the aforementioned neurological, intestinal, and inflammatory disorders, or the other conditions nicotine may treat.

Now I am certainly not advocating that everyone use nicotine, just that the benefits outweigh the risks for a lot of people, especially given that the risks are so minimal.

 

[zoiDman]

...

Now I am certainly not advocating that everyone use nicotine, just that the benefits outweigh the risks for a lot of people, especially given that the risks are so minimal.

I Can't Disagree with this with.

With the Possible Exception that the Long Term Risk of Habitual Inhalation of Food Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners, and Colorants is not Known. And will not be Know for Quit awhile.

Because to get a Grasp on the Long Term Effects of these Chemicals in e-Liquids, a Researcher would First need to Find a Large Group of Individual who have Never Smoked and have Use the SAME Chemicals for say a 10 Year Period.

As it is Now, Vapers are using a Potpourri of Chemical Flavorings in Varing Percentages from 2 ~ 30%. With All Levels of ml/day usage. And The Vast Majority of them are X-Smokers.

 

[dragonpuff]

I Can't Disagree with this with.

With the Possible Exception that the Long Term Risk of Habitual Inhalation of Food Flavorings, Artificial Sweeteners, and Colorants is not Known. And will not be Know for Quit awhile.

Because to get a Grasp on the Long Term Effects of these Chemicals in e-Liquids, a Researcher would First need to Find a Large Group of Individual who have Never Smoked and have Use the SAME Chemicals for say a 10 Year Period.

As it is Now, Vapers are using a Potpourri of Chemical Flavorings in Varing Percentages from 2 ~ 30%. With All Levels of ml/day usage. And The Vast Majority of them are X-Smokers.

I can't argue with you on this one it takes many years for longitudinal studies to be conducted, that combined with all the different kinds of flavorings it is difficult to say what the potential health consequences could be.

In the future there could be ways to narrow it down though. We could find, say, people who've been vaping for at least 30 or 40 years and determine their disease prevalence. If they have a higher rate of a certain disease than the general population, we could find out their flavor preferences. Then we could determine if it is a certain flavor type, or class, that correlates highly to this disease. If so, we can narrow down what is in that flavor class that is not present, or is present in far lower amounts, in other flavor classes. At that point we would have a likely culprit. (Of course it would not be certain, but as I said before, there are no certainties in science, only likelihoods.)

So yeah, we could conduct some sophisticated studies and figure that out 50 years from now but we have no way of doing that now.

 

[AndriaD]

Wrong is a Funny Word.

And arguments can be made that a Wrong can be Justified by a Greater Good.

You really think so??? Many in the south thought that the "greater good" was in not completely destroying the southern economic system -- which is precisely what happened when the slaves were freed, since the entire southern economic system was based on slave labor.

Saying that a wrong is a right because it's for the greater good is just EVIL.

This country is not just about "majority rules" or "protecting the greater good" -- it's also about protecting the interests of the minority! Who should not be steamrollered just because they're in the minority!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Rh. Arthritis - it's an anti-inflammatory. Two Swiss studies on this. The heaviest smokers had less pain.

Good lord! Guess I gotta learn to vape 36mg!

Ohhh my aching shoulders!!!!!! And this thumb knuckle is twice the size it ought to be!

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

You really think so??? ...

Absolutely I do.

And just Like an Example can be Sited that the Ends Didn't Justify the Means, or the Greater Good Wasn't Achieved, I'm sure One could find a Few Examples where things were Better.

If Cigarette Deaths are Over-Inflated, but More People can Benefit from Cancer Research, this Might be one of those Cases. Notice I said Might. And I am Not going to Extend this to How All People Feel about the Fudging of Numbers.

I see Very Few things in the World that are pure Black and Off-White.

How Funding may be Calculated for something like Cancer Research Isn't one of them.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

zoiDman,

I agree with you that few things are black and white, but some things are. Lying to people "for their own good" is one of those things. Just as you pointed out previously, wrong and right are often subjective - often to the whims of an agenda. When a subject is still open to debate and discovery, proponents on one side or the other will all too often exaggerate the evidence that supports their position while marginalizing the evidence that refutes it, in order to hasten the end of the debate and achieve the outcome they desire.

We've discussed the obvious tobacco analog, but it may be too close an analog for you to see the connection. Consider global warming. Many scientists agree that our carbon emissions are destroying the planet, but all do not agree. While the global-warming theory-subscribers would have you think otherwise, the subject is still in discovery and debate. There are multiple documents cases where, by their own admission, authorities in the GW crowd have fudged numbers and manipulated data in order to manipulate the public into accepting what they perceive as the "facts" of the matter. The desired outcome they've hastened into effect was the closure of many coal-fired power plants.

Some may consider that a victory, but there is another side to consider. Last winter, the Eastern US power grid was one plant away from widespread black-out due to the extreme cold and extra load on the grid. This winter, we have several fewer plants online than we did last year. The achieved "greater-good" may be about to blow up in our faces.

I don't know which approach is better in that debate, but I believe that the only way we will achieve a true greater-good outcome will be through honest debate, unfettered discovery, and as many people as possible being able to contribute to the solution without being manipulated into false understandings and convictions.

Now, pivot back to the tobacco analog. Many here believe that e-cigarettes are a valuable harm-reduction approach. Many on the other side believe that e-cigarettes are dangerous and a gateway to smoking. No one believes that e-cigarettes are good for you. This is the perfect theater for discovery and debate, but the other side has already shown their hand that they intend to lie, manipulate, and cloud the debate in order to get all of us to understand that their view is superior to ours.

I refuse to let anyone co-opt my opinion.

 

[zoiDman]

zoiDman,

I agree with you that few things are black and white, but some things are. Lying to people "for their own good" is one of those things.

...

I refuse to let anyone co-opt my opinion.

You seem Very Adamant about your Position. That's Good. I like people with Strong Beliefs.

Unfortunately, I do Not Share your Opinion on the Specific Case regard "Smoking Related" Death statistics.

 

[GunMonkeyINTL]

Actually, we agree about the danger and malignancy of combustible tobacco.

What we disagree on is the subtler point of how much stock we put in our own opinion.

I believe combustible tobacco is bad, but accept that I could be wrong in either substance or degree. You, on the other hand, are so confident in your belief that you belief that other view couldn't possibly be valid and it is therefor acceptable to lie to people in order to get them to see the light you're so graciously offering them.

I told you I have evidence that heated kanthal releases untraceable carcinogenic vapors. What are your still doing here? I figured you'd have recycled your PVs, dumped out your juice, and went to get your Chantix prescription filled by now.

 

[dragonpuff]

Please attack the post, not the poster...