FDA Extremely well done (and not yet available) FDA comment

[AndriaD]

The idea that the lies are justified is simply the stuff that hilarious hypocrisy is made of. I've noticed that WILL come back and bite you. Honesty isn't just the best policy, it's the only policy that actually works.

I've also noticed that the puritanism that comes from this lying for the greater good and justification for bans beats whatever the olden days came up with in terms of puritanism. I think the 1400's puritan would be in awe of the 2000's puritan.

Great post! -- though I think you meant '1600s' -- or maybe even late 1500s; in the 1400s everyone was still catholic, no puritans -- they'd have been burnt at the stake as a heretic! Seems like a good thing to do with our latter-day puritans, come to think of it.

But I agree with the thought -- especially that bit about not doing it "in front of the chiiiiildren" -- people didn't used to have separate bedrooms, so whatever mom & dad got up to at night, the kids heard it, maybe even saw it -- people didn't treat kids like angelic ninnies in those days, to be "protected" from EVERYTHING UNDER THE SUN. In fact 12 and 13 yr old girls commonly were married off at the onset of their menses, and expected to begin procreating.

I applaud your comment RE: honesty being not just the best policy, but the ONLY policy. Please run for office, Jman; I'll vote for you in a heartbeat!

Andria

 

[Rlrick]

Hey all yesterday I took my mother-n-law over to the clinic to get her feet massaged and toenails trimmed. While I was setting there twirling my vision spinner and kanger tank between my fingers like a baton. An older gentlemen and his wife were sitting there watching me then the older gentleman asked me if that was one of those new fangled devices he’s been hearing so much about. I told him yes it was then he said “I heard that they were worse for you than smoking” well that just opened the door for me. I told him that they are not safe but are they more deadly than cigarettes absolutely not. They are exactly the opposite at least 950 to 1000 times better than smoking. I went on to tell him how long I had smoked and my health problems that’s when his wife a non smoker said that she wished he would quit. I told her and him about having very minimal cravings in the 8 plus months and that would I recommend these to another smoker to quit my answer was yes. We sat there and talked for a very long time while his wife was getting her feet done. He told me he had started smoking when he went into the Army. And that he has quit trying to stop smoking because every attempt failed. I told him of a vape shop close by that would be quite helpful in getting him off cigarettes and that he ought to try one more time he said he would. After leaving I stopped in to the vape shop and told them about him they said they would be looking for him. After leaving I went and did some other business as I was driving back by the vape shop I saw the older gentleman and his wife going into the vape shop. This just goes to show us that even at 70-80 yrs. old they want to quit smoking good or bad it doesn’t matter being free does.

 

[Kent C]

Hey all yesterday I took my mother-n-law over to the clinic to get her feet massaged and toenails trimmed. While I was setting there twirling my vision spinner and kanger tank between my fingers like a baton. An older gentlemen and his wife were sitting there watching me then the older gentleman asked me if that was one of those new fangled devices he’s been hearing so much about. I told him yes it was then he said “I heard that they were worse for you than smoking” well that just opened the door for me. I told him that they are not safe but are they more deadly than cigarettes absolutely not. They are exactly the opposite at least 950 to 1000 times better than smoking. I went on to tell him how long I had smoked and my health problems that’s when his wife a non smoker said that she wished he would quit. I told her and him about having very minimal cravings in the 8 plus months and that would I recommend these to another smoker to quit my answer was yes. We sat there and talked for a very long time while his wife was getting her feet done. He told me he had started smoking when he went into the Army. And that he has quit trying to stop smoking because every attempt failed. I told him of a vape shop close by that would be quite helpful in getting him off cigarettes and that he ought to try one more time he said he would. After leaving I stopped in to the vape shop and told them about him they said they would be looking for him. After leaving I went and did some other business as I was driving back by the vape shop I saw the older gentleman and his wife going into the vape shop. This just goes to show us that even at 70-80 yrs. old they want to quit smoking good or bad it doesn’t matter being free does.

 

[dragonpuff]

I think this is a really well made point. It does explain the general perception of why smoking is painted in the collective 'bad' light that it routinely is. Dare say anything positive about smoking/smokers and you'll have people staring at you blankly, as if you just recommended pacifism as way to deal with terrorism.

Your words on fairytales made me think of the movie "Wreck It Ralph" which I thought handled the dichotomy in a rather ingenious way. Film noir also does this but is never aimed at kids in the stories it tells.

I remember telling a friend once that I think maybe people are addicted to things because they get something they actually need from them, and I got an immediate, dismissive response of "I don't think so." I'll never forget that. This, of course, was coming from someone who's never been afflicted with an addiction.

I get similar responses from people when I try to argue that nicotine can actually be a beneficial medicine. People in our society have been so trained to believe that addiction is inherently evil that they refuse to look at it any other way. It's actually pretty sad.

 

[Rossum]

People in our society have been so trained to believe that addiction is inherently evil that they refuse to look at it any other way.

And they'll tell you that with a straight face while drinking a cup of coffee.

 

[dragonpuff]

And they'll tell you that with a straight face while drinking a cup of coffee.

Worse, many will tell you with a straight face while smoking, and drinking alcohol, and explaining why vaping is so bad for you...

 

[AndriaD]

I remember telling a friend once that I think maybe people are addicted to things because they get something they actually need from them, and I got an immediate, dismissive response of "I don't think so." I'll never forget that. This, of course, was coming from someone who's never been afflicted with an addiction.

I get similar responses from people when I try to argue that nicotine can actually be a beneficial medicine. People in our society have been so trained to believe that addiction is inherently evil that they refuse to look at it any other way. It's actually pretty sad.

People who've never been addicted to anything don't have the FIRST CLUE what an addiction is. My 1st husband even said the oh-so-stupid 'why don't you just quit?' when my alcoholism was first getting bad. I simply pointed out that if I could 'just quit' I wouldn't BE an alcoholic!!! I mean... DUHHHHHHH!

Idiots!

And my aunt... I love her dearly, she's probably my favorite relative EVER... and she applauded my quitting cigarettes, by WHATEVER means I did it. But then she goes "so after a while, you'll quit this too?" Like that was just a given. I asked her why I should. All she could come up with was "well, *I* wouldn't want to be chained to some habit." I told her she didn't get it, BECAUSE she's never been addicted to anything, and that the surest way to make CERTAIN I started smoking again was to quit vaping. She looked completely puzzled.

Andria

 

[seminolewind]

Hey all yesterday I took my mother-n-law over to the clinic to get her feet massaged and toenails trimmed. While I was setting there twirling my vision spinner and kanger tank between my fingers like a baton. An older gentlemen and his wife were sitting there watching me then the older gentleman asked me if that was one of those new fangled devices he’s been hearing so much about. I told him yes it was then he said “I heard that they were worse for you than smoking” well that just opened the door for me. I told him that they are not safe but are they more deadly than cigarettes absolutely not. They are exactly the opposite at least 950 to 1000 times better than smoking. I went on to tell him how long I had smoked and my health problems that’s when his wife a non smoker said that she wished he would quit. I told her and him about having very minimal cravings in the 8 plus months and that would I recommend these to another smoker to quit my answer was yes. We sat there and talked for a very long time while his wife was getting her feet done. He told me he had started smoking when he went into the Army. And that he has quit trying to stop smoking because every attempt failed. I told him of a vape shop close by that would be quite helpful in getting him off cigarettes and that he ought to try one more time he said he would. After leaving I stopped in to the vape shop and told them about him they said they would be looking for him. After leaving I went and did some other business as I was driving back by the vape shop I saw the older gentleman and his wife going into the vape shop. This just goes to show us that even at 70-80 yrs. old they want to quit smoking good or bad it doesn’t matter being free does.

I was thinking that earlier. I see many more people carrying them openly (not vaping it at the time) and instead of scorned looks, I get more curiosity looks, and even questions. Eventually, they might be seen as a positive thing by the public. I also really like the fact that anyone can walk up to most kiosks or shops and try out the PV and flavors very easily with being handed a clean top to draw on. Better than a lot of talking to easily try first hand.

And, just a joke, if popularity increases immensely, actions by the FDA may be looked at as a repeat of "Prohibition" !!!. Wouldn't that be a hoot.

 

[zoiDman]

People who've never been addicted to anything don't have the FIRST CLUE what an addiction is. My 1st husband even said the oh-so-stupid 'why don't you just quit?' when my alcoholism was first getting bad. I simply pointed out that if I could 'just quit' I wouldn't BE an alcoholic!!! I mean... DUHHHHHHH!

Idiots!

...

So in this Case, would you say that the Negative Aspects outweighed the Positive Effects of Alcohol for you?

 

[AndriaD]

So in this Case, would you say that the Negative Aspects outweighed the Positive Effects of Alcohol for you?

Absolutely. To me, throwing up is A FATE WORSE THAN DEATH... and my liver had reached the point that continuing to drink was going to mean daily worship of the porcelain goddess. That was my own personal "bottom" and I never wanted to go any lower.

But it took me many, many years to understand why I became so anti-social after I quit drinking -- I had used alcohol for a lot of reasons, but social ease was near the top of the list. In fact I'm fairly reserved, not a social butterfly at all, and would far rather stay home and read a good book than go out to just about anywhere. But until I learned that about myself, and accepted it, going out for any social event was pure misery -- shy, awkward, insecure, socially inept -- drinking made that misery go away. Going out now is somewhat less of a misery mainly because I don't go anywhere that I don't REALLY WANT to go -- and I'm somewhat less insecure. I've also worked out a lot of my early "demons" and so don't have to obliterate my senses to escape them.

But man, those beer commercials on football Sundays... I have to leave the room, it looks so tasty.

Andria

 

[zoiDman]

Absolutely. To me, throwing up is A FATE WORSE THAN DEATH... and my liver had reached the point that continuing to drink was going to mean daily worship of the porcelain goddess. That was my own personal "bottom" and I never wanted to go any lower.

But it took me many, many years to understand why I became so anti-social after I quit drinking -- I had used alcohol for a lot of reasons, but social ease was near the top of the list. In fact I'm fairly reserved, not a social butterfly at all, and would far rather stay home and read a good book than go out to just about anywhere. But until I learned that about myself, and accepted it, going out for any social event was pure misery -- shy, awkward, insecure, socially inept -- drinking made that misery go away. Going out now is somewhat less of a misery mainly because I don't go anywhere that I don't REALLY WANT to go -- and I'm somewhat less insecure. I've also worked out a lot of my early "demons" and so don't have to obliterate my senses to escape them.

But man, those beer commercials on football Sundays... I have to leave the room, it looks so tasty.

Andria

I Hear You. And Right On for Doing something about things.

BTW - I Wonder if Some People feel the Same Way about Cigarettes? That the Negative Aspects far outweigh the Positive Effects. Just like You and I do about Alcohol?

 

[Rossum]

BTW - I Wonder if Some People feel the Same Way about Cigarettes? That the Negative Aspects far outweigh the Positive Effects. Just like You and I do about Alcohol?

I would assume that all those who quit 'cold turkey' feel that way.

For me, one of the benefits of smoking (and now vaping) is that people find me tolerable to live with. About 10-12 years I go (the last time I tried to quit 'cold turkey') a few days into it, my wife (who has never smoked) told me: "If you wanna stay married, you need to start smoking again."

That's the great thing about vaping. I got to keep the benefit but got rid of the negative aspects.

 

[zoiDman]

I would assume that all those who quit 'cold turkey' feel that way.

For me, one of the benefits of smoking (and now vaping) is that people find me tolerable to live with. About 10-12 years I go (the last time I tried to quit 'cold turkey') a few days into it, my wife (who has never smoked) told me: "If you wanna stay married, you need to start smoking again."

That's the great thing about vaping. I got to keep the benefit but got rid of the negative aspects.

I don't Know if this can be Said for "All" people? I for one Didn't quit Cold Turkey.

I think one thing that Might be True though, is the Longer Someone is a Heavy Smoker ( PAD or Greater) the more they Might Feel this Way. On Average.

I know Many Smokers who tell me that Smoking isn't Effecting their Health, so they have No Desire to Quit. But these people are in their Late 20's to Early 30's.

 

[AndriaD]

I Hear You. And Right On for Doing something about things.

BTW - I Wonder if Some People feel the Same Way about Cigarettes? That the Negative Aspects far outweigh the Positive Effects. Just like You and I do about Alcohol?

I never truly understood the positive effects I got from cigarettes, until I came here and began learning about the effects of nicotine, as well as the other alkaloids present in tobacco. I know now that I was self-medicating my ADD (a condition that wasn't even known, when I first started at age 13 -- because some doofus boy smoked!), my anxiety (which used to be called "being nervous" and was not considered a medical condition, but just a neurosis), and in later years, self-medicating my IBS (ditto the above -- unknown till fairly recent years). But as an adult-onset asthmatic for the last 30 yrs, I've wrestled with cigarettes for many years, and even WITH knowing that my breathing would improve if I quit, and definitely get worse if I didn't, and even WITH having the visual of my dad dying of lung cancer... I simply could not get free of them, no matter what I tried.

E-cigs are the FIRST and ONLY thing that has EVER worked to separate me from cigarettes. It can't be just the nicotine replacement, or the patch would have worked. I don't need much nicotine anyway; I had been steadily decreasing my smoking for about 16 yrs, from 3+ pks a day to right around a pk (or less) a day. For me, I think it's been those other alkaloids that have been most addictive, which no doubt explains why, since I started adding WTA to my ejuice about 2 wks ago, I haven't had a single craving, or suffered any of that emotional mayhem at the 3wk point that I suffered the first time around, when I was using just nicotine, no WTA.

Frankly, right now, my breathing isn't really that much better. There is less junk to cough up, but the asthma itself might even be just a shade worse -- I think that's temporary, till I finish getting rid of the tar left by that month I returned to smoking, because when I had just over 3 months smoke free, my asthma really wasn't bothering me. I think what I may be feeling is the absence of those "anesthetic" agents in tobacco -- my lungs really were worse, as a smoker, but those chemicals masked it, and now that I'm without them, there is no masking; I can really FEEL when my lungs are struggling. But I do have a lot more energy -- I guess that's my cells enjoying all the oxygen instead of CO -- and my self-esteem has probably never been higher, for having FINALLY rid myself of something that I thought I would never be able to get rid of.

I never thought I'd be free of cigarettes, and had stopped even trying to be. E-cigs came along as 'serendipity' -- a BLESSING un-asked for. So I jumped on it with both feet! It made me feel awful about myself when I went back to smoking after my illness, when I couldn't vape for several reasons, but I'm happy that I held it down to a month, and I'm very, very happy that today makes 4 weeks AGAIN smoke-free, and Monday will be a month.

Andria

 

[DC2]

I don't Know if this can be Said for "All" people? I for one Didn't quit Cold Turkey.

I think one thing that Might be True though, is the Longer Someone is a Heavy Smoker ( PAD or Greater) the more they Might Feel this Way. On Average.

I know Many Smokers who tell me that Smoking isn't Effecting their Health, so they have No Desire to Quit. But these people are in their Late 20's to Early 30's.

I smoked for 27 years, and quit when I was 43 years old thanks to vaping.
But I only smoked around 7 cigarettes per day, on average, for those 27 years.

I did not think it was affecting my health, but I was wrong.
But that is not the point.

The point is that I got a LOT out of my minimal amount of smoking...

In fact, I could argue that smoking is what enabled me to tolerate the world around me.
And it wasn't the nicotine that was the reason.

Smoking was my escape valve on life.

It enabled me to relax, to get away, to be alone with my thoughts.
It enabled me to think through and solve problems.

And to be honest, it was just fun.

For me, the benefits of smoking far outweighed the risks, which is why I never even thought about quitting.
But I recognize that I was not the "classic" smoker by any means.

So that is why I often keep my story to myself.

 

[zoiDman]

...

The point is that I got a LOT out of my minimal amount of smoking...

In fact, I could argue that smoking is what enabled me to tolerate the world around me.
And it wasn't the nicotine that was the reason.

Smoking was my escape valve on life.

It enabled me to relax, to get away, to be alone with my thoughts.
It enabled me to think through and solve problems.

And to be honest, it was just fun.

For me, the benefits of smoking far outweighed the risks, which is why I never even thought about quitting.
But I recognize that I was not the "classic" smoker by any means.

So that is why I often keep my story to myself.

So why did you Quit if there were so Many Benefits from it?

 

[DC2]

So why did you Quit if there were so Many Benefits from it?

I switched to vaping!


It wasn't the risks that made me switch, it was the stink.
My wife didn't like the stink.

But since quitting I did find out that my health had indeed been negatively affected.
And if I had realized that, I might have felt differently about the risks and benefits at the time.

 

[zoiDman]

...

But since quitting I did find out that my health had indeed been negatively affected.
And if I had realized that, I might have felt differently about the risks and benefits at the time.

Yeah... I didn't Realize how far Down the Scale I had gone also.

I mean, I knew there was Some degree of Decline. But I figured it was just part of Not Being 30 ( or 40!) any more. Amazing how Good I feel today.

I feel Better today that I did 10 Years ago. Much Better.

 

[AndriaD]

Yeah... I didn't Realize how far Down the Scale I had gone also.

I mean, I knew there was Some degree of Decline. But I figured it was just part of Not Being 30 ( or 40!) any more. Amazing how Good I feel today.

I feel Better today that I did 10 Years ago. Much Better.

You know how I REALLY know I have more energy? I was ALWAYS a diehard rock n roll fan; had no use for country music whatever, till I was about 45; modern country music has started sounding a lot like a good bit of the 'southern rock' of the 70s, but mainly it just suited my energy level -- not so frantic and frenetic.

But lately, if I listen to any country music at all, it's Dwight Yoakam, some of his real uptempo rockabilly; mostly I listen to rock and blues -- Zeppelin, ZZ Top, Black Crowes, even Johnny Winter -- and it doesn't seem frantic at all, it makes me want to dance! So I do -- and I don't fall down dying to catch my breath, a painful 'stitch' in my side and in my chest!


Andria

 

[Kent C]

Johnny Winter - may he Rest In Peace ♪

Johnny Winter - Unseen Eye - YouTube