FDA FDA deeming regulation proposals
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My first comment to any one who asks is they work. I then go on to explain that I'm a 53 year smoker who quit cigarettes by accident when I tried to cut down by using e-cigarettes. Seems to get their attention.
That's what I call myself too, an accidental quitter!
I only tried them to pacify my son, who suggested I try them. But once I tried it, I became an ex-smoker that same moment.
My first comment to any one who asks is they work. I then go on to explain that I'm a 53 year smoker who quit cigarettes by accident when I tried to cut down by using e-cigarettes. Seems to get their attention.
I know of, at least, 10 people who had questions about my APV and who were smokers. They went to their local B&M store,purchased a starter kit, quit smoking, and never went back.
I was a 30 year smoker and started vaping to do the very same thing, only to find that THIS actually worked, on the first day. I honestly thought that my friend that told me about it was lying that he'd actually quit.
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Like this:
FDA reveals its views on ecigs in new publication (part 3), and some thoughts on their new deadlines | Anti-THR Lies and related topics
That's the thought that's been running around in the back of my head like a yappy little dog.
They have a hammer so everything must be a nail. And if it's not a nail, by golly, we'll regooolate it into one!
Now, to be clear, I think regulation has its place. Our collective experience shows that there are Bad People out there. The tobacco companies were up to no good. I don't want a repeat (say in some future where vaping ate the cig companies and some megacorp liquid company says, "hey, what if we do research on increasing the addictive power of our product?"... I mean, you can't say for sure it wouldn't happen because it did happen).
A cop on the patrol is a good thing I think. But the FDA seems, to me, to have a kind of bureaucratic hardening of the arteries going. Vaping is not smoking. They are wholly different worlds that share only one thing: nicotine. The thrust of the proposed regs from what I've seen is rather like, "Of course they're cigarettes, lookit the name!"
This isn't going to work. Best case, the vape world pushes back and the nutty regs get slapped down in court. Worst case, and the one that bothers me most right now, NJoy, Blu, and the rest sell us out (they've been "pleased" with the proposal... um... not comforting) and we create "big tobacco two point oh".
(The irony being the incumbent companies flounder, as they are, and the new kid on the block rises to take over. Don't try to tell me that's not NJoy's goal. And, mind you, I rather like their disposables for those rare times I find myself missing the "cig experience" as it were. But I don't trust them for even a nano-second.)
I agree we are fighting for HONEST vendors no matter where from (getting around regulations being inherently dishonest). As for the FDA my whole point was when they decide we are gone they will be exactly that contrary and likely have the backing of every ANTZ group around.
I am not saying roll over and give up here but I am saying we are up against a pretty big wall here and let us NOT underestimate it.
Its more than clear to me at this point that they're casting a wide net deeming everything we use a "tobacco product" including vaping zero nic and have said over and over that once they've accomplished that THEN the REAL serious regulations will come... meaning flavors and limiting nic strengths. They first have to get the hardware deemed "tobacco" so that's what they're going after and just hoping people are mislead by still allowing flavorings and TV ad for instance... its a smoke screen hoping people don't notice how often they say REAL regulation lies in the future. At any rate, I await CASAA to see if I'm correct on this. Whatever they say will "go" with me and is what I will become active on.
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I have great respect for CASAA. I too am anxiously awaiting their statements and plan BUT I do not blindly follow any person or group. I think every vapor needs to add up ALL the information and make his or her own determination of how to proceed.
Tru Dat Myra!
While following CASAA's lead, I am a proud member.
While pursuing my own ideas, as myself, I can do anything I think can help, unencumbered by the responsibility of representing anyone else. I like those possibilities.
Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...
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And I'm calling this "fact" fear mongering.
Thing about 'fear mongering' and politics, is the mongering could end up being correct. In this case, I don't believe it will. I feel very confident it will not be. But I don't know, and I find this assertion of (alleged) fact to be counterproductive to where we are today.
FDA seeks comments on streamlining approval process. That may be a great thing. That may be way to get all products (by any sized vendor) approved and able to be legally sold forever and ever. If I say, "it is a fact that every small business will meet these regulations and have products approved and available for legal purchase," that would be the opposite of what you are purporting. I would call that "wishful thinking" and plausibly, very misguided.
I think reasonable people feel it'll be somewhere between these two realities. But us otherwise reasonable people are able to prop FDA up as boogeyman that regardless of how wonderfully intellectual, persevering and honest / respectful we are in our approach to reasonable regulations, FDA could, theoretically, play hardball and regulate the industry out of existence. Very challenging to argue with one that holds that bias. Argue enough with someone that has that bias and there can be no other 'reasonable' conclusion than you are a BT shill and are part of the grand conspiracy to kill vaping.
IMO, we have grand opportunity to shape policy going forward. Will we get everything we want? I say no. If you are expecting that and will be .... hurt if you don't get all that you want, get out now. Run! If able to accept certain things, while also willing to fight indefinitely on other things, which may or may not be part of a black market, then you're good to go.
This question in response to post #261?
I see where you are going with this, but feel it is a wait and see for what I feel you are getting at. Not, wait, be fearful, listen to fearful messages only, and witness to that fear mongering come to fruition. At least not for me. I wish the same for you.
How many small eCig vendors are currently authorized to legally sell an eCig (tobacco) product?
You ignore my question, but you continue to use that label.
So what is Myk's specific end he hopes to achieve with his "fear mongering"?
He's not merely seeing this issue differently than you? I think the position he takes that many small vendors are unwilling to risk a very high cost (with no guarantee!) to seek FDA approval is quite reasonable.
Myk's position is no less valid than yours.
Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...
How many juices are legal, right now, that we know will be legal to sell as "approved by the FDA" in two years plus 75 days?
Remember, this is the same bunch that shut down the industry and seized property when they thought they could get away with it. They only relented when forced to by law.
That is a historical fact.
You trust them now...why?
Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...
I agree. I don't "blindly" follow. I have my viewpoint, especially regarding hardware/components, and have stated it over and over from day one. I've read the whole thing and found nothing to disagree with that view but await CASAA's statement on it. My statement was made with the belief, at this point, that they are going to read/interpret the proposal the same way I did. They, of course, may not and I'll be open to considering their backed-up viewpoint. What I don't agree with I'll not be active on. What I do agree with I will. Its going to be piecemeal.
Control.
Can elaborate on this, as may be desired.
I have concern about the worst, based partially on FDA's track record. I'm a little more concerned about general public's treatment of smokers/smoking, and now vaping, and desire to scapegoat that for ultimate goal of control.
To me, FDA doesn't represent worst case scenario, but I realize they play a significant part in how that may transpire. I also don't think worst case scenario (all eCig products are illegal) is horrible, or end of story. People, including kids, are still going to vape even if it is illegal, and prohibitionists will lose (bad), IMO.
Wild West days are coming to an end. We knew this. We have been preparing for this. We can handle this. I still believe eCig industry will be thriving in 3 years and likely has triple the revenue that it does in 2014. If you find my message of 'we can handle this' not aligned with where you are at today, then that's fine. Feel free to debate and discuss that with me.
But here on open forum, anyone that wants to posts "facts" that are speculation and asserting end to vaping, and I'm going to call that out with desire to debate what looks a lot to me like fear mongering.
I am not arguing that your position of "we will be okay" is manipulative or agenda-driven. You clearly make that implication with the use of the term "fear mongering".
I understand what you are saying. A vastly restricted market, to me, is decidedly not okay. This is especially true if we can do better by speaking up!
The "fear mongers" seek control of....what?
Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...
Juices being sold now are in an unauthorized market. We all knew that would not last. But yet it continues. FDA has said it'll continue, and in a sense has authorized its continuation for 2 or so more years. Nobody knows what will be legal to sell as "approved by the FDA" in 2.5 years, including the FDA. Including ANTZ. Including wisest people walking the planet right now.
I don't trust 'them.' I trust the process. That process is bigger than FDA, POTUS, WHO, ANTZ, CASAA, so on and so forth. That process may entail my, and others, willingness to participate in an unauthorized market for obtaining products that I desire, while fighting political battles dealing with truth, science and politics of the day. I don't see black market as inevitable, but I accept that it may be part of the process going forward, and if you are willing to participate in Wild West right now, then I might have trouble understanding why you would be scared to participate in the black market.
Innovation will continue. To me, this is a fact.
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