FDA FDA deeming regulation proposals

[Gato del Jugo]

Great find... Thank you. I'm posting this on my Facebook... it's important.

Excellent!

I think it's important for every vaper to step outside the vaping community & share some of our knowledge, experience, tools & success with our social circles.. which may or may not contain beginning vapers, or current tobacco users, or even non-tobacco users...


For example, a smoker might not even be thinking about trying vaping, since they've heard negative things in the MSM about it.. or maybe they have tried a cigalike once before, but didn't get much satisfaction from it... But if they hear on your Facebook, for example, that you just celebrated your 1-year anniversary of being smoke-free thanks to vaping, their ears may perk up...

Another example: A non-tobacco user in your circle of friends has a friend, or relative, or co-worker who has tried to quit in the past with the gum or the patch.. Again, they hear of your quit success via vaping.. and could suggest to their smoking person in their life to give this vaping thing a try...

One more: A non-tobacco user in your circle of friends is having a conversation one day with a person who might be going off about how e-cigs should be banned, etc.. Instead of your friend perhaps blindly agreeing with them since they don't know much about it & assumes the other person does know.. they're now more aware, thanks to your recent Facebook post that you're now at zero-nic, of how vaping can have a positive impact on somebody's life, and could maybe even now persuade some other people in that conversation -- or at least tone down the rhetoric & tilt things a little more in our favor...


I, too, share vaping stuff on my Facebook.. In addition to the sharing of some success milestones, I also "like" certain vape product companies that I use & enjoy, or link a YouTube review video of a new PV I just got to help somebody understand a little that there's more than just cigalike products, or provide a link to something vaping related perhaps with my own take on it (such as the recent FDA proposal), etc.


And the reason for all this is to expose the non-vaping community to information & to raise awareness that this stuff can & does work.. To help sway people's opinions, even if it's just one.. To point them in the right direction if they or the people in their lives ever need a little persuasion or some guidance on how to go about vaping...


The bottom line is, the more people who are on our side, or who are at least no longer ignorant & aren't caught up in the anti-e-cig hysteria, the better it is for us & future vapers.. And even if they don't fully support us, perhaps they might not be mindlessly against us, which can be just as important...

It might not seem like it can accomplish a lot, that it's just a little thing.. But if enough vapers do this, we can maybe tip the odds in our favor just enough & help win this war now & over the coming years...

 

[Myk]

I believe that the ambiguity is a smokescreen.
I believe the hint of possible concessions is a smokescreen.

And I think they are all very bad things.

The heavy-handed approach would have riled up the entire vaping world.
it was crucial for them to to avoid that.

And they left wide open the back door to let themselves in any time they want.
To do what they really intend to do.

If I was the FDA and I wanted to hand vaping over to Big Tobacco, I would have done EXACTLY what they did.
In fact, I can't even think of a single thing I would have done differently.

Some people think they don't understand what they are doing here.
I think they know exactly what they are doing.

All government knows exactly what they're doing. They can't be crying about the troubles of the working poor out of one side of their mouth and then requiring a stack of paperwork for someone trying not to be working poor out of the other. They are usually lawyers and know exactly how much it costs to pay for thousands of hours of lawyer fees.
They play stupid but they're usually not.

 

[Danoman]

I believe that the ambiguity is a smokescreen.
I believe the hint of possible concessions is a smokescreen.

And I think they are all very bad things.

The heavy-handed approach would have riled up the entire vaping world.
it was crucial for them to to avoid that.

And they left wide open the back door to let themselves in any time they want.
To do what they really intend to do.

If I was the FDA and I wanted to hand vaping over to Big Tobacco, I would have done EXACTLY what they did.
In fact, I can't even think of a single thing I would have done differently.

Some people think the FDA don't understand what they are doing here.
I think they know exactly what they are doing.

Personally, I think your EXACTLY right on there DC2... they know exactly what they're doing.

 

[Kent C]

I believe that the ambiguity is a smokescreen.
I believe the hint of possible concessions is a smokescreen.

And I think they are all very bad things.

The heavy-handed approach would have riled up the entire vaping world.
it was crucial for them to to avoid that.

And they left wide open the back door to let themselves in any time they want.
To do what they really intend to do.

If I was the FDA and I wanted to hand vaping over to Big Tobacco, I would have done EXACTLY what they did.
In fact, I can't even think of a single thing I would have done differently.

Some people think they don't understand what they are doing here.
I think they know exactly what they are doing.

It's how the same types sold the Heathcare Act. As I said in an earlier post - some say: "If you like your ecigarette, you can keep your ecigarette".

 

[Myk]

I agree... unfortunately. The obvious intent is to make it as difficult as possible. I rebuild my wicks anyway and I can always go get kanthal wire by the spool, but most out there (commonly speaking) don't know how to make their coils. Where my curiosity sits is the companies that make our unflavored nicotine. Will the FDA require us, as individuals to have some sort of limit on even being able to purchase the unflavored nicotine we use for making our own juice...? If they do then, we ALL have a serious problem. If that's the case, I promise there will be a black market, at least in that area for certain. I know how to extract it from tobacco but, it'll taste like tobacco and would still have those tobacco chemicals in it, therefore nullifies ANY pureness of liquid that's made from an extraction. So, it'd be no better than just smoking an analog cigarette, in my opinion.

I haven't read every word but base nicotine doesn't seem to be mentioned. I imagine it would have to go through approval because most of the sellers say it's intended for ecigs. I really can't think of any other way they could sell it, natural insecticide would be frowned on (and wouldn't get any customers).

Real extraction is a chemical process similar to what is done in many trailer parks across the country. It's possible but dangerous.

 

[2coils]

Some thoughts from Dr Siegel......
http://tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.com/
Think of it this way: Individual X has smoked 2 packs per day for 30 years. She has tried, unsuccessfully, to quit smoking using the nicotine patch and nicotine gum. Finally, she has successfully quit smoking using electronic cigarettes.

What the FDA is stating is that it does not believe that it would be any worse for individual X to resume cigarette smoking than for her to remain an ex-smoker by continuing to vape. The FDA is stating that it is aware of no evidence to suggest that returning to cigarette smoking would be an unwise decision for this individual.

​

 

[DC2]

Excellent!

I think it's important for every vaper to step outside the vaping community & share some of our knowledge, experience, tools & success with our social circles.. which may or may not contain beginning vapers, or current tobacco users, or even non-tobacco users...


For example, a smoker might not even be thinking about trying vaping, since they've heard negative things in the MSM about it.. or maybe they have tried a cigalike once before, but didn't get much satisfaction from it... But if they hear on your Facebook, for example, that you just celebrated your 1-year anniversary of being smoke-free thanks to vaping, their ears may perk up...

Another example: A non-tobacco user in your circle of friends has a friend, or relative, or co-worker who has tried to quit in the past with the gum or the patch.. Again, they hear of your quit success via vaping.. and could suggest to their smoking person in their life to give this vaping thing a try...

One more: A non-tobacco user in your circle of friends is having a conversation one day with a person who might be going off about how e-cigs should be banned, etc.. Instead of your friend perhaps blindly agreeing with them since they don't know much about it & assumes the other person does know.. they're now more aware, thanks to your recent Facebook post that you're now at zero-nic, of how vaping can have a positive impact on somebody's life, and could maybe even now persuade some other people in that conversation -- or at least tone down the rhetoric & tilt things a little more in our favor...


I, too, share vaping stuff on my Facebook.. In addition to the sharing of some success milestones, I also "like" certain vape product companies that I use & enjoy, or link a YouTube review video of a new PV I just got to help somebody understand a little that there's more than just cigalike products, or provide a link to something vaping related perhaps with my own take on it (such as the recent FDA proposal), etc.


And the reason for all this is to expose the non-vaping community to information & to raise awareness that this stuff can & does work.. To help sway people's opinions, even if it's just one.. To point them in the right direction if they or the people in their lives ever need a little persuasion or some guidance on how to go about vaping...


The bottom line is, the more people who are on our side, or who are at least no longer ignorant & aren't caught up in the anti-e-cig hysteria, the better it is for us & future vapers.. And even if they don't fully support us, perhaps they might not be mindlessly against us, which can be just as important...

It might not seem like it can accomplish a lot, that it's just a little thing.. But if enough vapers do this, we can maybe tip the odds in our favor just enough & help win this war now & over the coming years...

Yes.

Yes, yes, and yes again.
This is our only path to make things right.

EDUCATE EVERYONE ALWAYS.
And that especially includes non-vapers and current smokers.

I've done my part over the last four years plus.
I have no one left to educate in my circle.

But I still continue to educate those outside my circle who come into contact with me.
And that includes the guy who wanted to bum a smoke off me the other day when he say my vapor exhale in a parking lot.

 

[Danoman]

It's how the same types sold the Heathcare Act. As I said in an earlier post - some say: "If you like your ecigarette, you can keep your ecigarette".

Yeah, and we see how THAT one worked out... oh, and it'll be cheaper too...? Plaeeeeeeese...!!! Anytime the government gets into to anything, it ruins it...

 

[Katya]

I believe that the ambiguity is a smokescreen.
I believe the hint of possible concessions is a smokescreen.

And I think they are all very bad things.

The heavy-handed approach would have riled up the entire vaping world.
it was crucial for them to to avoid that.

And they left wide open the back door to let themselves in any time they want.
To do what they really intend to do.

If I was the FDA and I wanted to hand vaping over to Big Tobacco, I would have done EXACTLY what they did.
In fact, I can't even think of a single thing I would have done differently.

Some people think the FDA don't understand what they are doing here.
I think they know exactly what they are doing.

Yes.

And if you really listen carefully to Zeller's conversation with Judy Woodruff, he pretty much says exactly that.

Video: FDA cracks down on

We have to deem first, then we'll act.

This is the scariest video I've watched on the subject.

 

[Katya]

It's how the same types sold the Heathcare Act. As I said in an earlier post - some say: "If you like your ecigarette, you can keep your ecigarette".

Or, "We have to pass this bill to find out what's in it."

 

[patkin]

Yeh, first we have to gain control. THEN we'll let you know how we'll control your life. Every single person on "The Five" (conservative, liberal and both(? Greg lol) today said its a shame what they're doing and, rightly and in so many words of my own interpretation, will hold them directly responsible for smoker deaths in the future because their parents/grandparents would still be alive had they vaped instead. I was actually kind of surprise by all of their passion on the subject. I expected it from Greg but the others who don't vape surprised me. Anyway, OT, "The Five" don't see the proposal as a good thing.

 

[Katya]

Greg is a Libertarian, AFAIK.

 

[Mowgli]

CASAA: FDA regulation of e-cigarettes: huge costs, little or no benefit, says CASAA

 

[patkin]

Yeh,,,, my conservative friends say I'm a liberal and the liberal ones say I'm a conservative ... that's why I've come to saying "both."

 

[Danoman]

CASAA: FDA regulation of e-cigarettes: huge costs, little or no benefit, says CASAA

Is this the new release they were talking about doing today...?

 

[GaryInTexas]

Yeh, first we have to gain control. THEN we'll let you know how we'll control your life. Every single person on "The Five" (conservative, liberal and both(? Greg lol) today said its a shame what they're doing and, rightly and in so many words of my own interpretation, will hold them directly responsible for smoker deaths in the future because their parents/grandparents would still be alive had they vaped instead. I was actually kind of surprise by all of their passion on the subject. I expected it from Greg but the others who don't vape surprised me. Anyway, OT, "The Five" don't see the proposal as a good thing.

I saw that live Pat. It was the best e-cig comments I've seen on TV.

 

[Jman8]

You see, this is where I disagree.

I don't see the creation of a black market as the only viable juice option as a "consumer win". I view that as a dreadful setback to consumers (current and future).

Hmmm, I'm not sure how you got this from what I said. I said (in summary form)
- Financial requirements, for applications, need to change
- If FDA doesn't change them, and it prices out small businesses, it'll create a black market
- Because of demand, that market will be very popular/wealthy
- And consumers will win, yet again.

I agree that it is a setback, of sorts, but other option is market disappears. Which I really don't understand how that would happen, where magically demand disappears, especially given ease of production via DIY.

If you think the FDA will change the financial (and other) requirements for application then you must posses some information or insight I lack. Just because we need it to change doesn't mean it will. The FDA has been openly hostile to vaping all along; there is no reason to believe they would adopt a new streamlined policy that I can see.

The fact they ask for it is reason to consider it might. That TCA specifically addresses not creating a black market, suggests that they might. The notion that a whole bunch of vaping enthusiasts and vendors will ask for it to change, I believe, strongly suggests that it could change.

That it will absolutely change for sure, we do not currently know.

Unless the grandfather date is changed for application of approval, the industry stands to lose a great deal of the manufacturers that make it what it is today. The FDA has already stated that they believe this date is dictated by the tobacco settlement, so getting them to change it won't be easy.

I think we are saying similar thing, but I'm adding in reality of a black market. I see that as temporary setback, subject to political will of the day and realization that control is better than what black market entails (for dealers and consumers, and law enforcement).

If I could change one, and only one, thing in this deemed regulation I would change that arbitrary and capricious date.

The 2007 date? The one established by congress? I think that could change, but mostly feel that ship has sailed. I think we'd actually have better chance for pushing for eCigs to not be regulated under TCA, and even that seems like a stretch.

For me, all of what we are discussing here comes down to whether FDA will approve applications of new tobacco product for some medium sized eCig vendor or smaller. Even then, I'm not sure we'd all agree on that being some sort of turning point. Currently, some or many of us believe nothing will get approved (regardless of company size). Then some, perhaps majority, believe only big companies/BT will get approved and no one else. I, and a few others believe, many will get approved and size of business applying won't be an issue. But I wonder what sized business it would take for the middle crowd, and what I think is the majority, to start thinking the third scenario is occurring? I'm thinking if company like, I dunno, Provari is approved, will we all agree that is a medium sized business (or smaller) that was just approved? Or will some of us keep saying, "no, they are a big company, of course Provari was going to get accepted. That much was obvious." And on the flipside, if rinky dinky company is approved, that no one here currently uses, then I'm thinking we'll be like, "who cares, my favorite is still being held up on stupid technicalities and it just shows FDA is intentionally screwing over certain vendors. How can you not see this?"

 

[patkin]

CASAA: FDA regulation of e-cigarettes: huge costs, little or no benefit, says CASAA

Thanks for the link. Sent out via emails, facebook, twitter and my personal network off-group.

 

[EddardinWinter]

Yes.

And if you really listen carefully to Zeller's conversation with Judy Woodruff, he pretty much says exactly that.

Video: FDA cracks down on

We have to deem first, then we'll act.

This is the scariest video I've watched on the subject.

No doubt.

Does this sound like a person who wants a reasonable regulation? He acknowledged that this is, "only a first step to establish regulatory authority". Flavors are already in his sights...he said it was so.

So we fight these regulations tooth and nail during the review period and teach Mitch that vapers won't take this crap lying down.

If we sit out this fight, we leave our fate in that bureaucratic pig's hands. I don't trust him one bit! I believe that absent significant push back from our community, these people will decimate the vaping industry.



Roaring thunderously via Tapatalk...

 

[patkin]

Is this the new release they were talking about doing today...?

Partially I would say... its dated today and is "for immediate release." They allude to more to come though. But their stance is clear.