FDA Vs. E-Cigs

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exeye

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Sep 10, 2010
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Los Angeles
Hi, new here, obviously, but been vaping for a bit. The latest FDA bull forced me to write a post on a non-profit blog (no ads or anything) about this. I'll name-drop and say that Vicki at Cignot told me that I should post the link here, since it would be nice if some real-life vapers shared their real-life experiences in the comments (you don't have to be a member to comment). It IS a Liberal blog, so Conservatives might want to wear sunglasses. :)

I'd appreciate it if you took a look and commented, since we're fairly well read, and I'd like to get non-smokers to understand the huge difference between vaping and smoking.

The link to the site is http:Free Range Talk.|.Where talk has free range

Hope to see some comments, thanks.

and I'll TRY a direct link ( sometimes have issues with this):

http://www.freerangetalk.com/?p=26025
 
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CaptJay

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 3, 2010
4,192
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A Brit, abroad, (USA)
People should start writing their senators calling for a vote of no confidence in the FDA - if they put this much effort into looking at new drugs on the market perhaps things like the Chantix and Accutane farces wouldn't occur. The FDA (a govt agency, and therefore subject to congressional oversight) needs to stick to its purview and stop trying to persecute ordinary working, and more importantly, VOTING Americans.
 

orville99

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ECF Veteran
Jul 27, 2010
90
1
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OK, Flame Away...


A far better letter writing campaign would be to the suppliers demanding that they pay attention to the law as it is written first, and then you may have a better shot at getting the politicos to listen whaen you all ask them to change it. As long as the source and quality of supply is completely unregulated, we all set ourselves up for exactly the type of action the FDA is taking.

There currently is no
:
Standardization of terminology. What's high from one supplier is medium from another. High can mean 16 mg, 18mg, 24, mg, or 36mg. (or anywhere in between)

There are no ingredients listed on the bottles. Did you get PG, VG, a mix of PG/VG? What % by volume is water? what % by volume is nicotine? What else is in the bottle? How did they make it "butter rum"? Are the ingredients natural or synthetic?

The bottles contain a known toxin, yet have no child-proof caps, or warnings.

There currently is no statement of manufacturer or country of origin on either hardware or juice (other than the chargers, which are the only properly labeled components in any kit).

Suppliers routinely and openly violate U.S. and international copyright and trademark law, and knock-offs identify themselves with the same name and model designation as the real product.

Face facts. The "industry" is largely "outlaw". Don't expect to get a proper hearing in D.C. or any other civilized government until you get the players within it to act responsibly.

None of us may like the actions that the FDA took, but it is somewhat disengenuous to act shocked by it. We will be, in the end, the instruments of our own demise if we don't start cleaning up our own "house" first..
 

OldDragon

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Jun 25, 2010
888
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orville99 - Tho the things you cover are mostly true, I question if the FDA should be the ones covering e-cigs.

Terminology, don't see how they should be involved as long as the juice dealers tell you when ordering what the strenght is/you select. Currently all the juices I have show the nicotine content on the bottle. True or not, I don't know but some do affect me as if they are stronger.

PG/vg - some sites show it, most don't and most of my bottles do not show the mix. Child proof, most are not, but they all have the little dripper tops. Those may keep the kiddies from getting too much juice at a time, but take a look around yourself and you will see alot of things that kids should not be able to get into.

Where the hardware/parts are from, what difference does it make if it is made in China, England or the US. The chargers are only labeled to show input/out and made for products other that e-cigs. Would it be nice to have everything labeled, yes. But this has no bearing on what the FDA should be able to control.

The juice PG/VG is most likly fda approved - for things other that e-cigs. Flavors, they maybe already approved, the ones I found say they are, but I have no way of knowing for sure they all are. Same thing goes for the bread, butter and other things I eat.

Copy rights, that for lawsuits to settle, not the FDA.

There is only one thing that the FDA should be looking at and that is the nicotine. But the juice is not being sold to eat, drink, or as a skin treatment.
The one thing that may come about, the FDA would not have any standing if our juice was sold without nicotine, dealers(hate using that word) could then sell us nicotine in seperate bottles and the whole thing should go away.......
 
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shadow_rhelm79

Moved On
Sep 5, 2010
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Louisiana
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orville99

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 27, 2010
90
1
Florida
orville99 - Tho the things you cover are mostly true, I question if the FDA should be the ones covering e-cigs.

Terminology, don't see how they should be involved as long as the juice dealers tell you when ordering what the strenght is/you select. Currently all the juices I have show the nicotine content on the bottle. True or not, I don't know but some do affect me as if they are stronger.
Recognize that the Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act has been in existence since the mid-1960's and established national standards for labeling - standards which have been incorporated into all 50 states as statutory law. If the bottles do not properly identify the contents (and a generic "high" doesn't meet any recognized code), they do not meet the legal requirements codified and applied consistently across industry for those 40+years. Quite simply, not labeling bottles properly is a violation of both federal, state, and interstate commerce laws.

PG/vg - some sites show it, most don't and most of my bottles do not show the mix. Child proof, most are not, but they all have the little dripper tops. Those may keep the kiddies from getting too much juice at a time, but take a look around yourself and you will see alot of things that kids should not be able to get into. Again, since the Tylenol tragedy, the Consumer Product Safety Commission and the FDA have made child-proof enclosures for all pharma products mandatory. Like it or not, nicotine is a classified pharma, so not bottling properly is a violation of law.

Where the hardware/parts are from, what difference does it make if it is made in China, England or the US. The chargers are only labeled to show input/out and made for products other that e-cigs. Would it be nice to have everything labeled, yes. But this has no bearing on what the FDA should be able to control.

FCC and FTC Federal Communications Commission and Federal Trade Commission regulations have required this declaration on all products sold in the U.S. since the mid-1970's - again a violation of both federal and state law.

The juice PG/VG is most likly fda approved - for things other that e-cigs. Flavors, they maybe already approved, the ones I found say they are, but I have no way of knowing for sure they all are. Same thing goes for the bread, butter and other things I eat.

As separate chemicals that's true, but when they're incorporated into anything that's used in or on the body, they have to be cleared by the FDA

Copy rights, that for lawsuits to settle, not the FDA.

True, but also clear violation of federal and state law.

There is only one thing that the FDA should be looking at and that is the nicotine. But the juice is not being sold to eat, drink, or as a skin treatment. It is being taken "in vivo", which puts it squarely under the FDA's purvue.

The one thing that may come about, the FDA would not have any standing if our juice was sold without nicotine, dealers(hate using that word) could then sell us nicotine in seperate bottles and the whole thing should go away.......

Possibly, but my guess is that nicotine in a concentrated form is probably regulated as a pharmaceutical, and delers would have to be licensed to sell it.


The point of my post is simple. The e-cig "industry" is in clear and flagrant violation of a variety of federal, state, and international laws, and unless it starts to clean up its act, it is not likely to get a fair hearing on the merits of the products it produces.

In short, there is ample legal ammunition for the government (not just the U.S., but every country that is a signatory to GATT) to disembowel the industry using any one of a dozen different bodies of law. The FDA just got there first, but I guarantee you they won't be alone when they go into court. They'll have amicus support from every arm of government.

I don't argue with your anger over the way this has been handled, but your anger is mis-directed. Work to clean up the supply chain, and the FDA will go away.
 
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jtcaseyjr

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Sep 9, 2010
270
7
Oak Harbor, WA
Hi, new here, obviously, but been vaping for a bit. The latest FDA bull forced me to write a post on a non-profit blog (no ads or anything) about this. I'll name-drop and say that Vicki at Cignot told me that I should post the link here, since it would be nice if some real-life vapers shared their real-life experiences in the comments (you don't have to be a member to comment). It IS a Liberal blog, so Conservatives might want to wear sunglasses. :)

I'd appreciate it if you took a look and commented, since we're fairly well read, and I'd like to get non-smokers to understand the huge difference between vaping and smoking.

The link to the site is http:Free Range Talk.|.Where talk has free range

Hope to see some comments, thanks.

and I'll TRY a direct link ( sometimes have issues with this):

Electronic Cigarettes (E-Cigs) – Health Threat Or Economic Threat? | Free Range Talk

I just posted on there. As I said there it was a great write up! I was a 2 pack a day smoker myself, I have been vaping now 4 months with no analogs since I started. I really hope the word gets out more as I really think vaping can benefit ALOT of people. I know at work when I go to what we call at work "the smoke pit" and I vape with the smokers, I spend most of my time out there telling the smokers what I'm doing and a few of them have actually ordered their own. It would be nice though if I didn't have to go to "the smoke pit" though to vape :( Ah well at least it's helping others and that's a good thing!
 

CaptJay

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 3, 2010
4,192
115
A Brit, abroad, (USA)
The FDA isn't going to go away - just ask the companies that produce St John's Wort - a herbal supplement used (and approved I might add) in Europe for hundreds of years. Its even available on the NHS in the UK as a mild antidepressant. It works, the only caveat is that it should not be used with prescription drugs (which are listed on the bottles). Its not available in the US because its not been tested (or not tested to the satisfaction of the FDA)...apparently hundreds of years of testing by users (and doctors and other regulatory bodies) in other western countries isn't enough.
Best sunscreen on the market? Can't get it in the US - its made by a French company and approved by their version of the FDA as well as the UK version; maybe skin cancer is more profitable in the US than in those countries.
They also aren't going away because BP dont want this product on the market as it competes with their own (crappy) ones. The alphabet soup gang (ASH et al) don't want it on the market as it mimics smoking - and according to them smokers and nicotine users in general are the reason for any known ill you can think of. The tax bodies won't go away because they don't want it around unless they can tax it at the same rate as cigarettes.
If you really think the FDA will go away if the industry 'cleans up its act' (which it may need in some cases) then you are being naive my friend.
 

t9c

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Jul 15, 2010
760
53
Houston
The FDA isn't going to go away - just ask the companies that produce St John's Wort - a herbal supplement used (and approved I might add) in Europe for hundreds of years. Its even available on the NHS in the UK as a mild antidepressant. It works, the only caveat is that it should not be used with prescription drugs (which are listed on the bottles). Its not available in the US because its not been tested (or not tested to the satisfaction of the FDA)...apparently hundreds of years of testing by users (and doctors and other regulatory bodies) in other western countries isn't enough.
Best sunscreen on the market? Can't get it in the US - its made by a French company and approved by their version of the FDA as well as the UK version; maybe skin cancer is more profitable in the US than in those countries.
They also aren't going away because BP dont want this product on the market as it competes with their own (crappy) ones. The alphabet soup gang (ASH et al) don't want it on the market as it mimics smoking - and according to them smokers and nicotine users in general are the reason for any known ill you can think of. The tax bodies won't go away because they don't want it around unless they can tax it at the same rate as cigarettes.
If you really think the FDA will go away if the industry 'cleans up its act' (which it may need in some cases) then you are being naive my friend.

Huh? I used to buy it (St. John's Wort) all the time about 10 yrs ago. Where are these guys from? GNC Not disagreeing with the rest of your post, however.
 

exeye

New Member
Sep 10, 2010
2
0
Los Angeles
Well, in response to the e-cig industry "cleaning up it's act", I can only say this:

Analogs don't list the Nicotine content, nor have child-proof caps, nor tell you where the packaging, or the cigs for that matter, were made. The same can be said for LOTS of products. If anyone tries to apply this selectively, it's because they're on a witch hunt against e-cigs and/or nicotine users, NOT because it's an actual issue. I doubt that any such actions would stand up in court.

As far as lableing, the site I use - Cignot - and many other sites I've visited, list whether the juice is pg, vg, or a mix, and what percentage. Some standardization is necessary on the nicotine strength labling, since juice is made by many different people, and they use different standards and procedures, but that's more of an administrative action, not a legal one.

Adressing the "knock-off" "copyright violation" angle, well that, in no way, affects the LEGITIMATE manufacturers/vendors. Would you shut Gucci down because people sell knock-offs?

All-in-all, I agree that standardization is necessary, but not something that could be used to shut the industry down, though it will continue to provide fodder for further harassment until it occurs.

Thanks for the responses, and particularly those who posted to my article. Anybody else, please do - we're educating smokers and non-smokers about this benficial product, and each story of success helps.

Thanks again.
 
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