FDA FDA's Zeller: Let's Reframe Debate to Focus on Nicotine

[Kent C]

I have no doubt that puritanism and collectivism are large motivators, especially for the "foot soldiers" of the TC movement. I also agree that control is a dominant factor for some individuals, it's obvious by their actions. However, this is a systematic campaign of misinformation relying on the collusion of multiple federal agencies and congress/the president.

I have a hard time believing that there aren't more people involved that know exactly what they're doing. Perhaps "money" is too simple, but the continued existence of the tobacco Control industry is a powerful motivator.

I agree that there is a 'systematic campaign of misinformation' and that can be for the continuing control and money. As well as the 'continued existence of the tobacco Control industry' where the powerful motivator is mainly control, some money and perhaps 'status' as well. Having Control is actually how they can continue to get money. Without that control, they'd actually have to produce something to get an exchange in money. Which is why I think control is dominate. Most have never produced anything in their lives. Went from some Social degree in college, into politics or "public service".

 

[Endor]

I agree that there is a 'systematic campaign of misinformation' and that can be for the continuing control and money. As well as the 'continued existence of the tobacco Control industry' where the powerful motivator is mainly control, some money and perhaps 'status' as well. Having Control is actually how they can continue to get money. Without that control, they'd actually have to produce something to get an exchange in money. Which is why I think control is dominate. Most have never produced anything in their lives. Went from some Social degree in college, into politics or "public service".

Indeed. Without tobacco control, Glantz would have to go back to aerospace engineering / applied mechanics. He hasn't worked in that field since the mid-1970s, according to his Wikipedia page.

However, this is a systematic campaign of misinformation relying on the collusion of multiple federal agencies and congress/the president.

I have a hard time believing that there aren't more people involved that know exactly what they're doing. Perhaps "money" is too simple, but the continued existence of the Tobacco Control industry is a powerful motivator.

Well put, Lessifer, especially the last sentence. I think we tend to simplify the motivators behind the attack against vaping as centering around money. Certainly money is part of it, when you take into account the money being spent on these agencies and the MSA money to the states, but certainly there must be more going on.

Perhaps it is puritanical. Perhaps it is about controlling others. Perhaps it is a collectivism mindset. Perhaps, it's a little of all three... oh, and the money involved.

 

[Katya]

Perhaps it is puritanical. Perhaps it is about controlling others. Perhaps it is a collectivism mindset. Perhaps, it's a little of all three... oh, and the money involved.

Yeah, it's all those things, of course, but then there is something else, really simple (and childish), but very true, that Prof. Gerry Stimson suggested in his brilliant speech--a bit of Canutism.

Prof. Stimson speculates that public health officials worldwide are simply being churlish because they didn't invent vaping. Here they are faced with this grassroots phenomenon that is taking the world by storm and they can't control it and it annoys them no end. The addicts themselves have found a brilliant way to free themselves from their smoking addiction. The inmates are running the asylum, rejecting useless expert advice from medical practitioners, rejecting their "help," their NRT products, their Chantix and Zyban and their 12-step programs, and having a lot of fun in the process. People are not only quitting smoking without the help of their general practitioners, they are having a ball! Vape meets, conventions, cloud blowing, delicious flavors, no pain and suffering, no will power--well, we can't have that, can we?

 

[OldBatty]

The inmates are running the asylum

Former inmates are breaking in to join the party.

 

[sofarsogood]

Yeah, it's all those things, of course, but then there is something else, really simple (and childish), but very true, that Prof. Gerry Stimson suggested in his brilliant speech--a bit of Canutism.

Prof. Stimson speculates that public health officials worldwide are simply being churlish because they didn't invent vaping. Here they are faced with this grassroots phenomenon that is taking the world by storm and they can't control it and it annoys them no end. The addicts themselves have found a brilliant way to free themselves from their smoking addiction. The inmates are running the asylum, rejecting useless expert advice from medical practitioners, rejecting their "help," their NRT products, their Chantix and Zyban and their 12-step programs, and having a lot of fun in the process. People are not only quitting smoking without the help of their general practitioners, they are having a ball! Vape meets, conventions, cloud blowing, delicious flavors, no pain and suffering, no will power--well, we can't have that, can we?

May be this sums it up but, if there were no excise taxes on tobacco everybody would love ecigs and the inventor would get the Nobel prize in medicine. There are plenty of influences but the controling influence is the money.

 

[Katya]

money

makes the world go 'round...

 

[philbh]

Stock up on nicotine while you can

Sent from my XT1060 using Tapatalk

 

[sofarsogood]

The Royal College of Physicians have just "re-framed" the debate. They reported on cigarette hazards 2 years before the US surgeon general. Today they are saying ecigs should be encouraged.

 

[DC2]

This implies that he knows there are those whom need long term use of Nicotine. I and many are in that class.

I do not count myself in your number...
But I recognize your existence...

I have not been using nicotine for around 4 months now.

Yet I will continue to fight for your rights almost as much as I fight for my own.
And right now, the $50/month health insurance charge for using nicotine is my issue.

Maybe tomorrow it will be yours.
Or an issue for anyone reading this thread.

Not that I don't have other issues with this whole insane nightmare.

Those that hate us have their reasons.
And there is nothing about any of their reasons that a sane person should support.

That's pretty much the bottom line for me.

I currently do not need nicotine, but I do in fact very much want to use nicotine.
And right now I am not using it, due to the health nazis and their extortion efforts.

The sad thing is, the health nazis have it all wrong.
And using a bit of nicotine is almost certainly better for you than not doing so.

I think the science is pretty clear on that at this point.

 

[DC2]

The long-term history of the use of intoxicants would suggest that human beings are essentially a drug-using species.

I would offer that the smartest among us have the greatest need to alter our consciousness now and then. It's hard seeing all the stupid in the world, and making peace with it without some help is even harder.

Trying to fix what is wrong is very important, and the inability to do so by one's self is hard on a person's soul. Stupid is only one of the things that stands in the way. The others are greed and hunger for power. Oh, yeah, and soccer moms who make their kids wear bicycle helmets.

 

[DC2]

I think you just won the entire internet.

I have Google stock, so please let Google continue to thrive.
As for me, I'll do anything you ask, as I need my internets very muchly.

 

[Alexander Mundy]

I do not count myself in your number...
But I recognize your existence...

I tried over time to drop my Nic down to get to zero. Had all the best intentions and no hesitation that it wouldn't work. Started vaping at 24 mg/ml. I went down to 16 then back up to 18. I have found that no matter how long I stay at 18mg/ml if I drop down below that I get the jitters and even vaping non stop does not help. My son managed to stop vaping altogether with me dropping his nic. It must be a matter of brain chemistry, I'm a highly addictive person and spent a considerable amount of my life in an altered state till I finally broke those habits over 20 years ago.

 

[Katya]

I think you just won the entire internet.

I have Google stock, so please let Google continue to thrive.
As for me, I'll do anything you ask, as I need my internets very muchly.

 

[memeticengineone]

The British National Health Service just started paying for people to use a variety of different e cigs from one brand, as a smoking cessation aid. It's still about cessation but it's a step forward. If only the US could look to their English dad's example.

 

[sofarsogood]

The British National Health Service just started paying for people to use a variety of different e cigs from one brand, as a smoking cessation aid. It's still about cessation but it's a step forward. If only the US could look to their English dad's example.

What I counsel is, don't worry about quitting smoking, just start vaping. If you vape you will smoke less. If you don't stop vaping eventually you will stop smoking.

Vaping isn't about "quitting", it's about control. I got 80% control in the first few days and 100% after six weeks. A brother of mine was a dual user for 10 months. I say, relax, you're going to get what you want from vaping so long as you keep doing it. Some people will decide to stay dual users indefinitely. So, whatever. But it's fun saving all that money and not coughing my brains out all the time. And may be I'll live longer. I guess that's a good thing. Vaping geezers.

 

[memeticengineone]

A lot of older people (50-75 usually) already vape in my experience.

I am not planning on quitting nicotine any time soon. But I won't be going back to analogs. I definitely don't think cessation should be the goal of vaping and selling vaporizers as smoking cessation products or "tobacco products" rather than their own harm-reduced nicotine delivery system, introduces unnecessary regulation and doesn't really suit the product. Regulators are being lazy by trying to shoehorn vaping into a preexisting regulatory category. They're also trying to tax e liquid as heavily as cigarettes, which makes zero sense if you're trying to create a "sin tax" disincentive for harmful products but makes lots of sense if tobacco tax revenue is going down and underfunded state/local governments are looking for a replacement for it.

 

[memeticengineone]

Also what with the baby boomers (1945-1960) all being that age and alive to see the moon landing they probably are into some space age vaping stuff. I remember my 80-some year old grandma asking if it was cheaper than smoking cigarettes (she used to smoke five packs a day and it's frankly amazing she's still alive) and I said it was way cheaper and she was really intrigued because I'm betting she misses nicotine.

 

[memeticengineone]

I tried over time to drop my Nic down to get to zero. Had all the best intentions and no hesitation that it wouldn't work. Started vaping at 24 mg/ml. I went down to 16 then back up to 18. I have found that no matter how long I stay at 18mg/ml if I drop down below that I get the jitters and even vaping non stop does not help. My son managed to stop vaping altogether with me dropping his nic. It must be a matter of brain chemistry, I'm a highly addictive person and spent a considerable amount of my life in an altered state till I finally broke those habits over 20 years ago.

I can't vape anything less than 6mg/ml unless I'm consuming huge clouds of it while chain vaping. But anything more than 8mg/ml for sub ohm makes me nic sick quick.

 

[MacTechVpr]

...Those that hate us have their reasons.
And there is nothing about any of their reasons that a sane person should support...

Agree with this wholeheartedly. Vaping is a communal urge common to everything and anyone human. As old and engrained in our nature as the combustibles we breathed in as fire was first encountered. If not the vape, something else as equally twisted in its imagined offensiveness to them. It's not the vape they hate.

Good luck all.

 

[Kent C]

Agree with this wholeheartedly. Vaping is a communal urge common to everything and anyone human. As old and engrained in our nature as the combustibles we breathed in as fire was first encountered. If not the vape, something else as equally twisted in its imagined offensiveness to them. It's not the vape they hate.

Good luck all.

“I like to think of fire held in a man's hand. Fire, a dangerous force, tamed at his fingertips. I often wonder about the hours when a man sits alone, watching the smoke of a cigarette, thinking. I wonder what great things have come from such hours. When a man thinks, there is a spot of fire alive in his mind--and it is proper that he should have the burning point of a cigarette as his one expression.” Ayn Rand