Flavoring Concern
- Thread starter SikVapor
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This is an excellent question since a similar issue recently transpired with a company called BodyBuilding.com. They are an internet reseller of nutritional supplements which are not FDA approved. The Feds stormed their offices here in Idaho after discovering that there were Steriods in the products that they were selling and advertising as steroid free.
Here's the kicker, as it turns out places like Bodybuilding.com, General Nutrition, etc., were resellers of all these products.
The Resellers were all depending on the Manufacturers ingredient information which was false and intentionally omitted the added steroids.
Conclusion: None of the resellers were found to be guilty and placed agreements across the board with the Manufacturers that all products must be steroid free and independently tested.
Of course, this says nothing as to the millions of customers which purchased these products and ingested steroids without their consent or knowledge.
It would be a prudent move for the juice resellers to make the proactive decision to do the same and protect their customers. Something to the effect of creating the American Vapers Association, a lobbying organization which mandates periodical 3rd party independent testing. Members can then add their membership seal in their advertising to promote consumer confidence.
I support the CASAA, however their focus is primarily lobbying and not establishing ingredient guidelines for their members. Unfortunately associations depend on funding, funding is generally determined by a percentage of annual sales or comes at a high price tag.
Here's the kicker, as it turns out places like Bodybuilding.com, General Nutrition, etc., were resellers of all these products.
The Resellers were all depending on the Manufacturers ingredient information which was false and intentionally omitted the added steroids.
Conclusion: None of the resellers were found to be guilty and placed agreements across the board with the Manufacturers that all products must be steroid free and independently tested.
Of course, this says nothing as to the millions of customers which purchased these products and ingested steroids without their consent or knowledge.
It would be a prudent move for the juice resellers to make the proactive decision to do the same and protect their customers. Something to the effect of creating the American Vapers Association, a lobbying organization which mandates periodical 3rd party independent testing. Members can then add their membership seal in their advertising to promote consumer confidence.
I support the CASAA, however their focus is primarily lobbying and not establishing ingredient guidelines for their members. Unfortunately associations depend on funding, funding is generally determined by a percentage of annual sales or comes at a high price tag.
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Meh, I've already been smacked down here and there, I'm fine with that, I'm a big boy. In fact, I enjoy a good debate about something.
Lynn is making a valid point - without a definition of what's a safe level and what's not, the knowledge of how much of a certain ingredient is present, is basically pointless. But I'm quite paranoid... Which is why I'd just like to know which flavors use them at all...
Anyway, I don't mind a little debate, as long as the issue itself doesn't just get brushed under the rug (or even, dare I say, hijacked due to personal differences stemming from other threads)
Lynn is making a valid point - without a definition of what's a safe level and what's not, the knowledge of how much of a certain ingredient is present, is basically pointless. But I'm quite paranoid... Which is why I'd just like to know which flavors use them at all...
Anyway, I don't mind a little debate, as long as the issue itself doesn't just get brushed under the rug (or even, dare I say, hijacked due to personal differences stemming from other threads)
No doubt, constructive debate over health concerns should always be welcomed.
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Well I was going to say;
Why does there have to even be a debate when you're just trying to get a questioned answered.
But I'm going to go ahead and leave it alone.
The problem is you're a fairly new user asking a legit question... some people seem to have a problem with that.
Yep, only has 88 posts......he's in for a smack down....
Posts like these two I've quoted serve no purpose other than to incite anger. As such, I would like to see them removed so that information can be gathered and healthy debates can continue.
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Unfortunately, any information we receive from the manufacturer is going to be translated and probably missing some key points between the translation of asking the question, and the translation of receiving the answer.
Personally, I don't know what 80% of the ingredients list in any product I consume is. Even if I read the label, I hardly understand what most of the things listed even are, or if they have any potential adverse side-effects.
Given the information we currently have at our disposal, you have a handful of options you could exercise to help put your mind at ease. You could try to find out if any of the millions of people who have been vaping for years have developed any problems associated with diacetyl or substitutes. You could choose to quit vaping flavored juice altogether. You could front the money and have some of this testing done yourself. Or you could just continue to hope that any supplier out there will have independent tests done, in the future, on the products they are reselling.
I do hope we are able to get concrete proof one way or the other, but realistically, I don't see it happening until a very wealthy person funds the tests themselves.
I hear ya, but frankly, if there's one person I'd love to see remain involved in this discussion, it would be Lynn. (Admittedly, I have no interest in a "debate" with her on it... or on any topic under the sun, for that matter) But she may have good insight into things I don't understand. I'm a dumb actor/designer. Granted, she's not a chemist by trade, but hell, she's probably got a mass spectrometer in her garage (or one at work? maybe a supersmart friend with one in their basement?) eh? eh? 
Posts like these two I've quoted serve no purpose other than to incite anger. As such, I would like to see them removed so that information can be gathered and healthy debates can continue.}QUOTE
Ditto....and THANK YOU, Darr!
I apologize.......I was trying to be funny, but I guess I'm no comedian. Truly didn't think it would anger anyone....never would have said it if I thought it would.
I apologize.......I was trying to be funny, but I guess I'm no comedian. Truly didn't think it would anger anyone....never would have said it if I thought it would.
As far as I can tell, there's no harm done. I applaud you coming in here and apologizing.
I haven't been on much recently, and just started reading this thread today and noticed that a certain poster was purposely trying to aggravate a situation, and then there was "backup" in the form of your post. I understand what you were trying to do, but it's unfortunate how it came across to the unbiased poster (me).
I'm glad you seem to be a civil person, and I hope we can both continue to vape together and value the lives of which we are saving.
Totally agree, especially the part about the mass spectrometer. And besides that Lynn is a great researcher.
It would seem a fairly simple matter to take a juice sample to a lab and get a difinitive answer on that specific juice. It would be a start in the right direction, but as Lynn points out, nearly nothing is all that natural any more and 99% of us have no idea what the chemicals we consume are or what they could be doing to us. Even the FDA has to backtrack on chemicals they approved in the past that turned out not to be what they originally perceived it to be.
I'm guessing you realize that water can poison you in sufficient quantities.
What amazes me about this thread is, Where did all the people in the earlier posts go?
LOL! (just reading your posts, you're not "dumb" by any means.)
My son is attending UCLA to become a chemical engineer. Perhaps, I could get him to chime in.
The OP seems to have moved to another vendor. Tenebrae, who posted the excellent info on first page is still active here.
And yep - unfortunately, these days, it seems almost anything will do harm if you pump enough of it through a rat. But I also don't want to use that as an excuse to ignore the substances which have already been found (by some other hapless unfortunate souls) to be hazardous... at least not anymore. I did that for 20 years while smoking cigarettes.
Darrigaz and Snowdragon both make excellent points about funding. There's a price tag to everything, and most industries do experience growing pains. I personally think this industry is about to explode, and if its going to survive, it would have to endure some of those growing pains.
I doubt Henry Ford invested much capital on safety research in his first couple years of manufacturing automobiles, but eventually it became clear that it was needed, and that cost had to be incorporated into their operating expenses... It didn't put them out of business, it was just passed on to the consumer.
Frankly, I'd gladly pay a couple extra bucks per bottle of juice in exchange for some transparency and consumer protection. Hell, I'd pay twice as much per bottle (have you tasted this stuff, or seen how long these damn bottles last?!) - but thats just me - granted, I'm still fresh off spending $6/day for smokes, and now have a new hobby which involves spending all my money for V4L wares! heheh
IMHO, if this industry does explode, the companies that care enough to stay above board by making the investment to protect their customers, may ride the shockwave of the boom to greatness... while those that don't may be swallowed shortly thereafter by bad press (hopefully any such bad press doesn't swallow them all - so "getting together" like snowdragon suggests would be a wise move by all of them).
Of course, with my luck.... I'd give up my beloved butterscotch only to find out later that even substitute chemicals were WAY under acceptably safe limits... and then die in a fiery car crash that has nothing to do with my lungs (my wife accuses me of being a pessimist. I prefer to think of myself as prepared for the worst... I still refuse to sell my neglected motorcycle, because if society fell apart, no better way to get out of town, what with all the clogged roads etc... hahaha)
And yep - unfortunately, these days, it seems almost anything will do harm if you pump enough of it through a rat. But I also don't want to use that as an excuse to ignore the substances which have already been found (by some other hapless unfortunate souls) to be hazardous... at least not anymore. I did that for 20 years while smoking cigarettes.
Darrigaz and Snowdragon both make excellent points about funding. There's a price tag to everything, and most industries do experience growing pains. I personally think this industry is about to explode, and if its going to survive, it would have to endure some of those growing pains.
I doubt Henry Ford invested much capital on safety research in his first couple years of manufacturing automobiles, but eventually it became clear that it was needed, and that cost had to be incorporated into their operating expenses... It didn't put them out of business, it was just passed on to the consumer.
Frankly, I'd gladly pay a couple extra bucks per bottle of juice in exchange for some transparency and consumer protection. Hell, I'd pay twice as much per bottle (have you tasted this stuff, or seen how long these damn bottles last?!
) - but thats just me - granted, I'm still fresh off spending $6/day for smokes, and now have a new hobby which involves spending all my money for V4L wares! heheh IMHO, if this industry does explode, the companies that care enough to stay above board by making the investment to protect their customers, may ride the shockwave of the boom to greatness... while those that don't may be swallowed shortly thereafter by bad press (hopefully any such bad press doesn't swallow them all - so "getting together" like snowdragon suggests would be a wise move by all of them).
Of course, with my luck.... I'd give up my beloved butterscotch only to find out later that even substitute chemicals were WAY under acceptably safe limits... and then die in a fiery car crash that has nothing to do with my lungs (my wife accuses me of being a pessimist. I prefer to think of myself as prepared for the worst... I still refuse to sell my neglected motorcycle, because if society fell apart, no better way to get out of town, what with all the clogged roads etc... hahaha)
Very kind of you, but you probably missed this is my endless rambling... I smoked cigarettes for 20 years. Oh yes. I'm dumb!
BPaulette.....I find your posts absolutely GREAT to read. You are so intelligent and you express yourself so well....have you thought of being a writer? You could be a screenwriter and still be in the acting business!
Seriously, though, thank you for posting here. You keep your cool, and are always nice to people. You are very diplomatic, and it is appreciated.
Kudos!!
(P.S.) Talk about DUMB, I smoked for 50 years!!
Seriously, though, thank you for posting here. You keep your cool, and are always nice to people. You are very diplomatic, and it is appreciated.
Kudos!!
(P.S.) Talk about DUMB, I smoked for 50 years!!
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glad to entertain Sally - I keep looking for a job as a pro forum troll, but apparently the market is saturated by non-paid volunteers, if you can believe that crap.
Anyhoo, if there's a V4L rep, completely lost on how this old thread was resurrected, its back on page 6. Would love to hear back on this
Anyhoo, if there's a V4L rep, completely lost on how this old thread was resurrected, its back on page 6. Would love to hear back on this
Wow!! Can I get e-liquid thats made exclusively from this substance?
But seriously... I hear ya...
I'm extremely allergic to PG style juices and even some advertised "VG" juices make my mouth and throat break out within minutes of vaping them so, it's not only the PG.
We're so use to just inhaling, swallowing, eating, drinking whatevers in the goo without ever having educated ourselves enough to ask "what's in this stuff"
I can't Vape the "VG" based V4L cuppacino. It makes my tonge break out in ulcers within ten minutes. So it's either NOT pure VG or there's something else in the goo.
I have to try and throw away until I can find something that doesn't bother me and let me tell ya, my choices are limited at this point.
I've even gone the DIY route and I'd rather go back to analogs than have to set up a lab in my kitchen once a month..
If I could find that one particular ingredient that's the culprit I could steer clear of it and then enjoy the rest of what vaping has to offer.
I think disclosure of ingredients would be a good thing....
We'll take a short commercial break and then return you to your normally scheduled program....
Like the PUP Sallyem
Sorry - had to get my fat ... down to the city to sign with a new sponsor for next year's cycling season...
I respect that you have a sharp mind. I think, regardless of your attempt to downplay, that you did see my (albeit rushed and cryptic) point. And your restatement of my point also all but proves that you've survived at _least_ a first year introduction to statistics (where Cesar's breath and Cleopatra's perfume are near universally employed for shock value as examples).
There's a fine line here. The manufacturer is placed in an impossible position. They can't say "it contains none" regardless of what "it" is - because that's demonstrably untrue in a large enough sample, and can lead to something actionable. And if they say "it contains trace amounts" - that immediately becomes "it's loaded with ____!"
The example that has had me shaking my head for awhile now is that the statement "PG is used everywhere - from baby food to toothpaste to cosmetics to less toxic/non-toxic antifreeze" popularly became "ZOHMYGAWD! WE MUST BAN IT! THEY'RE INHALING ANTIFREEZE! THEY ADMITTED IT!"
If I said "V4L's juice contains Diptonium!!!", people would run screaming that we needed to shut them down. They'd have no idea why, or even that Diptonium was something I just invented on the fly. It would be impossible to prove it _didn't_ contain Diptonium. If it doesn't exist, how do you measure for it? In an infinite universe - well heck - it _could_ exist, and just hasn't been discovered and named yet.
When I said "your question is misleading", that may have translated poorly, and I apologize if it was. Because we haven't established a safe exposure level, I'm concerned that it equates to the question: "have you stopped beating your wife?" Yes or No, you're still an admitted wife-beater (where the pronouns are of the "royal form" here).
"Yes, it contains nearly unmeasurable trace amounts." "ZOMG! IT'S POISON! KILL THEM!" "No, it contains none." "We measured fifty thousand gallons and found a couple molecules. They said it didn't contain any! ZOMG! SUE THEM!"
My argument becomes, in short, that until we've established a safe exposure level, "intellectual honesty" becomes "intellectual irresponsibility".
I've seen people write, time and time again: "we have a right to know what we're putting in our bodies". I checked the Bill of Rights, and in the US, that statement is _not accurate_. No such right exists. If it makes one _happy_, they are welcome to take it to a qualified lab and fund any kind of testing they feel will make them happy. That can be derived from ones "rights" (the Right to Pursue Happiness).
I have a good friend who's the department chair for a major state university's chemistry department. Could I leverage him for some gas chromatography? Sure. Laser mass spectrometry? Absolutely. Have I done so at times? Probably. Am I going to run this one down? Not my fight, and I fear the answer, plus or minus, isn't going to help any one, really, without establishing the aforementioned acceptable exposure. What I'm sure it will do is destroy my reputation, or some company's reputation, or cause the unwashed masses to start running around with pitchforks and torches. To what end? I believe that, in many cases, intellectual satisfaction needs to be held close. Let the nanny-state establish a baseline, and then the results become meaningful.
Whew. I think I murdered that point through overstatement as much as I under-treated it previously!
I respect that you have a sharp mind. I think, regardless of your attempt to downplay, that you did see my (albeit rushed and cryptic) point. And your restatement of my point also all but proves that you've survived at _least_ a first year introduction to statistics (where Cesar's breath and Cleopatra's perfume are near universally employed for shock value as examples).
There's a fine line here. The manufacturer is placed in an impossible position. They can't say "it contains none" regardless of what "it" is - because that's demonstrably untrue in a large enough sample, and can lead to something actionable. And if they say "it contains trace amounts" - that immediately becomes "it's loaded with ____!"
The example that has had me shaking my head for awhile now is that the statement "PG is used everywhere - from baby food to toothpaste to cosmetics to less toxic/non-toxic antifreeze" popularly became "ZOHMYGAWD! WE MUST BAN IT! THEY'RE INHALING ANTIFREEZE! THEY ADMITTED IT!"
If I said "V4L's juice contains Diptonium!!!", people would run screaming that we needed to shut them down. They'd have no idea why, or even that Diptonium was something I just invented on the fly. It would be impossible to prove it _didn't_ contain Diptonium. If it doesn't exist, how do you measure for it? In an infinite universe - well heck - it _could_ exist, and just hasn't been discovered and named yet.
When I said "your question is misleading", that may have translated poorly, and I apologize if it was. Because we haven't established a safe exposure level, I'm concerned that it equates to the question: "have you stopped beating your wife?" Yes or No, you're still an admitted wife-beater (where the pronouns are of the "royal form" here).
"Yes, it contains nearly unmeasurable trace amounts." "ZOMG! IT'S POISON! KILL THEM!" "No, it contains none." "We measured fifty thousand gallons and found a couple molecules. They said it didn't contain any! ZOMG! SUE THEM!"
My argument becomes, in short, that until we've established a safe exposure level, "intellectual honesty" becomes "intellectual irresponsibility".
I've seen people write, time and time again: "we have a right to know what we're putting in our bodies". I checked the Bill of Rights, and in the US, that statement is _not accurate_. No such right exists. If it makes one _happy_, they are welcome to take it to a qualified lab and fund any kind of testing they feel will make them happy. That can be derived from ones "rights" (the Right to Pursue Happiness).
I have a good friend who's the department chair for a major state university's chemistry department. Could I leverage him for some gas chromatography? Sure. Laser mass spectrometry? Absolutely. Have I done so at times? Probably. Am I going to run this one down? Not my fight, and I fear the answer, plus or minus, isn't going to help any one, really, without establishing the aforementioned acceptable exposure. What I'm sure it will do is destroy my reputation, or some company's reputation, or cause the unwashed masses to start running around with pitchforks and torches. To what end? I believe that, in many cases, intellectual satisfaction needs to be held close. Let the nanny-state establish a baseline, and then the results become meaningful.
Whew. I think I murdered that point through overstatement as much as I under-treated it previously!
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