Flavors that may contain Diacetyl, are there really this many?

Status
Not open for further replies.

Deeo

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 19, 2013
772
590
Ontario, Canada
But how do we 'know' this? Because our bodies tell us that our chest/bloodflow/nerves etc. feel initially better? Is this enough?

Like, all we know is that butter is better for you than MSG. Great, can I have 10lbs of butter please.

All we know, surely, is that as a nicotine delivery method, vaping is different from smoking.

EDIT: I know that cigarettes have dangerous tar included and up to 4,000 potentially harmful chemicals added. I am told vaping removes these threats. I assume this makes it 'better' all round. But it's just an assumption at this stage, I don't know.

If vaping was effecting my lungs i wouldn't be off all my inhalers that i used and needed daily. I disagree that we didn't know for years that smoking was a problem, we sure did. I remember being a kid and hearing my mother hack like crazy and wheezing needing her inhalers. I got so many ear infections. The tar that was on the walls and my mom scrubbing them all the time.

With vaping yes only a few months in but i can breath a heck of a lot better. You can say for me that it is to early to tell, but my eldest daughter started smoking and within the year she got and still has a cough. That scares me because my mother had a cough at a young age and later in life she found out she had COPD. I am trying to convert my daughter to vaping but its hard as she is in another province. So i think i may have to just gift a kit to her to help get her started or at least try it.
 

we2rcool

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,179
1,462
Iowa, IA, USA
But how do we 'know' this? Because our bodies tell us that our chest/bloodflow/nerves etc. feel initially better? Is this enough?

Like, all we know is that butter is better for you than MSG. Great, can I have 10lbs of butter please.

All we know, surely, is that as a nicotine delivery method, vaping is different from smoking.

EDIT: I know that cigarettes have dangerous tar included and up to 4,000 potentially harmful chemicals added. I am told vaping removes these threats. I assume this makes it 'better' all round. But it's just an assumption at this stage, I don't know.

No ones "knows" for a fact that vaping is ultimately safer than smoking. They assume it.

There is absolutely no doubt that when we stop sucking scalding smoke and scorching tar into our lungs that we stop the ongoing damage from doing the same. And we immediately see & feel that relief...and that may indeed save MANY lives. Less hot smoke & tar = less lung compromise and increased oxygenation of the blood. Increased plasma oxygen = less heart compromise and all manner of benefits. There are countless reports on ECF/net of people successfully reversing COPD, getting off inhalers, and improving their health from switching to vaping. This is a very good thing, and no one needs a study to prove it.

But we've added the hygroscopic/humectants (VG or PG), that suck/draw water to themselves...and most all of have sensed the various dehydration effects that are noticeable. Just because a symptom seems to go away, doesn't mean the effects aren't still happening; symptoms can dissipate because the body has adjusted it's actions in attempt to correct the problem - but that doesn't eliminate the problem. Most vapers are far more dehydrated than when they were inhaling smoke & tar. But now we're inhaling VG/PG, so the VG/PG is going directly into our bloodstream via the lungs. What's the long term effects of this in our lungs? Unknown. What's the long-term effects of a chemical 'drawing water to itself' (hence out of our bloodstream cells)? Unknown. Example: we know it's lessened our urine output, and even after a year of vaping, it hasn't bounced back completely (and we both drink around a gallon of water daily). Long term effect on kidneys and other organs? Unknown.

Then there's the thousands of unknown chemicals in the flavors that are also going directly into the bloodstream. In tobacco, we understand (from compiling data from all over the place, so these numbers might be off)...that around 500 of the 4,000 chemicals are from chemical additives (but that's a list from which manufacturers choose - not all of the 500 go into every brand of cigarette). And the majority of chemicals are 'naturally occuring' in the tobacco and chemicals created from burning it. In past eras (before the chemical additives), people smoked but rarely developed cancer from it. Could it just be the additives? Unknown

But the 300-500 chemicals that make up each individual flavor are not "natural" (although some may have started as something natural, like beavers .... glands that are chemically processed into 'powder in vials'). There's no way to know the effects of mainlining these chemicals (that are only tested for ingestion). There's definitely no way to know their effects when the chemicals are unknown.

Then there's all the "additives" (like Vape Wizard, Smooth, Magic Mask), which are chemicals that temporarily alter the action of our taste receptors, being mainlined into our bloodstream. What are the short & long term effects, and what do those 'alter temporarily' as they circulate throughout our body? And what might this cause long term? Unknown. And who knows about long-term inhalation of the other additives?

Then there's the nicotine, and it's effects.

And then we put it all in a bottle and vape it...and next there's the myriad of possible chemical reactions and new chemicals being formed, and all their effects. Uknown chemicals; unknown actions; unknown results.

There's no short term study focused on only one or two aspects (or a handful of individual chemicals) that can possibly expose the long term effects of everything together. And no one that knows anything about the physiology of the human body could claim otherwise. (well they could/can, and probably will).

And there's no short term study that can possibly reveal or adequately predict long term effects. NONE

Do we "know" vaping is not safer than smoking? Nope. We do know there's immediate benefits from the cessation of sucking down scorching tar & smoke.

We also know that the 3 major "bad boys" (diacetyl, acetoin, acetyl proprionyl) are three of the hundreds/thousands of chemicals that are GRAS in our flavors (Generally Recognized As Safe - for ingestion)...and the ONLY REASON we have any valid/up-to-date safety information on those three for 'inhalation' is because of the popcorn factory exposure that cost people their health, lives & lungs. But who is going to discover the possible inhalation risks of the hundreds/thousands of others we vape that are GRAS? Are there others that are just as bad, but cause no noticeable symptoms in the lungs/airway? or others that merely weaken/stress the body and/or trigger other diseases? or cause diseases/syndromes that can not be traced back to the chemicals? We don't know the effects, but we do know we ARE the lab rats.

We've assisted almost twenty people to switch to vaping; we help people learn to DIY; we didn't heed our 'red flags' and we've overused the flavorings in many of our recipes. But we've always told people the truth - that there is obvious potential for harm in long term vaping; it relieves many symptoms caused by smoking, and that it's probably the fastest, best & safest way to get off the cigs and eliminate nicotine addiction that is known. We also warn people that vaping can become an even more difficult addiction to break...it's more fun; it's more tasty; it's more satisfying socially; we get to buy fun bling, gizmos & paraphenalia; it doesn't trash our home, clothes & cars; and we're no longer reeking/smelly social pariahs that people accuse of killing them with our second hand smoke. And you know what? Everything we've said (and you can be assured, we are FAR more emphatic when we're in person), hasn't stopped one person from successfully switching to vaping!

One thing is absolutely true - no one knows if vaping is safer than smoking long term. And we don't care what their credentials may be, or what short-term studies they can quote. Anybody that says they know vaping is safer long term than smoking...is, well, a person that is saying what they can't possibly prove.

Vape Safe!
 

acka

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 11, 2014
114
70
Dublin, Ireland
If vaping was affecting my lungs i wouldn't be off all my inhalers.

But to be entirely accurate, in my opinion, this should read 'If vaping was affecting my lungs in the same discernible way as traditional cigarettes i wouldn't be off all my inhalers.'

I'm going in circles really, and will just have decide to do-or-do not as my own decision and accept it. But I am really annoyed.

I'm annoyed there's a huge element of 'having their cake and eating it' by manufacturers, whether big conglomerates or home-based operations. The flavour sites are happy to sell to people they surely know will vape it, yet are extremely careful not mention the v word anywhere on their site. You know, just in case. Surely I should be careful with my health then, you know, just in case. And the market may be small now but surely it's growing and they are surely trying to position themselves to take off with it.

I thought vaping was some George Jetson type stuff and that regulation would only interfere but now personally the best outcome in my opinion would be banning any vendor from selling any thing other than flavourless liquid until further testing. If people then want to go to the supermarket and pull something off the shelves to add go for it, but do it at your own risk and be aware you are going against recommended advice.

The inherent trust people have in over the counter products is being abused here. Worldwide. I don't want to be fooled into believing something is 'approved' or 'safe' through a clever use of language. Especially not by a vendor who, although they may be great to deal with etc., ultimately is profit-seeking. This is just as nasty and nefarious as the actions of the tobacco companies over the years.

EDIT: Okay, I see I'm getting emotional about it now, had a feeling I would. Great post above we2rcool, thanks.
 
Last edited:

we2rcool

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,179
1,462
Iowa, IA, USA

we2rcool

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,179
1,462
Iowa, IA, USA
But to be entirely accurate, in my opinion, this should read 'If vaping was affecting my lungs in the same discernible way as traditional cigarettes i wouldn't be off all my inhalers.'

I'm going in circles really, and will just have decide to do-or-do not as my own decision and accept it. But I am really annoyed.

I'm annoyed there's a huge element of 'having their cake and eating it' by manufacturers, whether big conglomerates or home-based operations. The flavour sites are happy to sell to people they surely know will vape it, yet are extremely careful not mention the v word anywhere on their site. You know, just in case. Surely I should be careful with my health then, you know, just in case. And the market may be small now but surely it's growing and they are surely trying to position themselves to take off with it.

I thought vaping was some George Jetson type stuff and that regulation would only interfere but now personally the best outcome in my opinion would be banning any vendor from selling any thing other than flavourless liquid until further testing. If people then want to go to the supermarket and pull something off the shelves to add go for it, but do it at your own risk and be aware you are going against recommended advice.

The inherent trust people have in over the counter products is being abused here. Worldwide. I don't want to be fooled into believing something is 'approved' or 'safe' through a clever use of language. Especially not by a vendor who, although they may be great to deal with etc., ultimately is profit-seeking. This is just as nasty and nefarious as the actions of the tobacco companies over the years.

EDIT: Okay, I see I'm getting emotional about it now, had a feeling I would. Great post above we2rcool, thanks.

We just have a couple of questions here...

Will you marry us? And if not, can we adopt you? :p
 

Deeo

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 19, 2013
772
590
Ontario, Canada
I thought vaping was some George Jetson type stuff and that regulation would only interfere but now personally the best outcome in my opinion would be banning any vendor from selling any thing other than flavourless liquid until further testing. If people then want to go to the supermarket and pull something off the shelves to add go for it, but do it at your own risk and be aware you are going against recommended advice.
To me this sounds like back in the 1960's. The e cig was invented
back then and if it was allowed back then my mother may still be alive. I disagree with banning anything at this point. It would be premature.

With buying flavorless and being able to grab something off the supermarket shelf is more dangerous because diacetyl along with the other 2 ingredients are not in all ejuices IMO. God only knows what you would be inhaling from the supermarket that will not be safe to be inhaling and kill you within minutes. Why ban flavors to only go and grab something to add that again may or may not be safe.

I agree we need more studies before we can say what is safe and what is not. But for know i am willing to be a guinea pig. I do no that i can not smoke again. I will be dead for sure.

I would also like to add that the popcorn lung symptoms start at 2 - 8 weeks and it is your lungs that have one of the symptoms. So far my lungs are fine. :)
 

we2rcool

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,179
1,462
Iowa, IA, USA
I'm going in circles really, and will just have decide to do-or-do not as my own decision and accept it. But I am really annoyed.

It IS your decision, and we totally understand your annoyance. We were EXTREMELY frustrated, depressed and all manner -of-emotional when we switched from organic-tobacco-stuff-your-own, and immediately felt worse from the chemicals & dehydration. Then we started researching further, and had a fit. But not before we'd invested WAY too much money & time in gear & DIYing (we're old, very artistic hippie-types, and we do everything with a passion).

Our suggestion - switch to unflavored, or use minimal amounts of FA flavors. Once you hit your nic comfort zone, reduce by a couple of percentage points every 2-3 weeks. Then start cutting down your actual vaping, eliminating gradually the 'hand to mouth' habit and all the other triggers. Then sell your gear, and have a huge I AM FREE FROM ADDICTION - NOTHING OWNS ME ANYMORE & NEVER WILL AGAIN party!

EDIT - and never-ever let it be more "fun" than smoking was, or ensonce it in your life as a 'rewarding hobby'.
 
Last edited:

Hoosier

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Jan 26, 2010
8,272
7,903
Indiana
Did you know there were people who were against the "new" locomotives because they were sure that a human body being propelled at 60mph would be unhealthy and possibly deadly? The original "speed kills" folks, but basically they feared the unknown.

A "ban until there is further testing"? The studies and tests done detecting for known issues isn't enough? Can't test for the unknown for obvious reasons. The only way there will be long term studies is IF there is LONG TERM USE, which would be impossible with any ban.

I've been vaping for over 4 years, started in 2009. I know my health continues to improve even though I continue to age. I know folks who have vaped longer and their health is doing the same thing. It's not scientific proof, but it's what I have to go on. These things have been around for around 10 years. We're getting close to being able to have the population pool needed for a long term use study. Compared to the time period vaping has been around, the custard notes concern is recent. So as long as vaping is not killed off, we will have long term studies and we will know more.

Pushing for more knowledge is a great thing. Distrust of things sold over the counter is a great thing. Stopping other people doings something because of unknowns is not a good thing, nor is living your life in fear.
 

we2rcool

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Mar 31, 2013
1,179
1,462
Iowa, IA, USA
To me this sounds like back in the 1960's. The e cig was invented
back then and if it was allowed back then my mother may still be alive. I disagree with banning anything at this point. It would be premature.

With buying flavorless and being able to grab something off the supermarket shelf is more dangerous because diacetyl along with the other 2 ingredients are not in all ejuices IMO. God only knows what you would be inhaling from the supermarket that will not be safe to be inhaling and kill you within minutes. Why ban flavors to only go and grab something to add that again may or may not be safe.

I agree we need more studies before we can say what is safe and what is not. But for know i am willing to be a guinea pig. I do no that i can not smoke again. I will be dead for sure.

I would also like to add that the popcorn lung symptoms start at 2 - 8 weeks and it is your lungs that have one of the symptoms. So far my lungs are fine. :)

We agree with most everything - excellent points all around! But the last thing - not so much. If one has been in thumb-screws for years, when one takes them off they don't feel or notice a tiny lil' scratch or pinprick. When our lungs/heart are busy experiencing the vast relief from no more scorching tar & scalding smoke, it's really tough to recognize what damage may be starting from the chemicals.

'Not trying to dissuade you or tell you that you don't know your own body...just want to point out that 'my lungs feel fine', doesn't necessarily equate to them actually 'being fine'.

Vape Safe!
 

Deeo

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 19, 2013
772
590
Ontario, Canada
We agree with most everything - excellent points all around! But the last thing - not so much. If one has been in thumb-screws for years, when one takes them off they don't feel or notice a tiny lil' scratch or pinprick. When our lungs/heart are busy experiencing the vast relief from no more scorching tar & scalding smoke, it's really tough to recognize what damage may be starting from the chemicals.

'Not trying to dissuade you or tell you that you don't know your own body...just want to point out that 'my lungs feel fine', doesn't necessarily equate to them actually 'being fine'.

Vape Safe!

I will agree that it is possible. However i am liking that e cigs have been around for 10 years and no lung issues anywhere that i have heard about. YET. However i am glad that ecigs are 10 years in and i am wondering how many years would it take to say they are safe if no testing was to ever be done? Also to be fair i don't know of anyone that has been solely on an ecig for 10 years, but there are quite a few on this forum that have 4-5 years in.

Edited: Lets just hope that we hear more about the testings that are finally going on and hope they end up the way we all here would like them too. :)
 

HeadInClouds

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 2, 2013
1,586
2,733
61
Lets just hope that we hear more about the testings that are finally going on and hope they end up the way we all here would like them too. :)

There is just one detailed scientific study of the effect of pg, vg, nic, and flavoring vapor on living cells, published June 2013:
http://www.gwern.net/docs/nicotine/2013-romagna.pdf
Cytotoxicity evaluation of electronic cigarette vapor extract on cultured mammalian fibroblasts (ClearStream-LIFE): comparison with tobacco cigarette smoke extract
by Giorgio Romagna, Elena Allifranchini, Elena Bocchietto, Stefano Todeschi, Mara Esposito, and Konstantinos E. Farsalinos

They compared the effect on living cells of smoke/vapor from a conventional cigarette, unflavored e-cig fluid, and 21 flavored fluids (mixed from 3-100%). All were FlavourArt flavorings from their e-cig line (not Kitchen Magic, which they state is food use only).

Extremely simplified summary:
PG, VG, and nicotine did not kill cells (this is like vaping unflavored juice)
tobacco smoke killed a lot of cells
just 1 FlavourArt flavoring (and only at 100% concentration) killed cells - a fraction of what cigarette smoke did

This is JUST a test of these 21 specific FA flavorings, plus the base liquid we all use (pg and/or vg and/or nic). Because it shows such reassuring results, keep in mind the results can NOT be assumed representative of other manufacturers' flavorings or other flavor families.

The complete study is available at the above link.

It was this study that led me to use FlavourArt flavorings - not just these test results, but that they'd allow their flavorings to be analyzed like this.
 

acka

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 11, 2014
114
70
Dublin, Ireland
Yeah, I realise most, if not all, people involved in vaping (even a lot of vendors) just want them to be as safe and harmless as initially thought/felt and that should be celebrated. Best of luck to everyone/congratulations on the undeniable everyday benefits of quitting cigarettes. I enjoy them too, I'm just upset after seeing this may not be the case entirely and probably feel a bit naive for thinking it would be.

I accepted things a bit too readily as long as they fit my pro-vaping mentality, even if (like the 'sauna effect' explanation of wheezing) they felt particularly 'unscientific'. Even the 'steep ejuice, it's just like wine' argument annoys me know. How is it like wine? Does it have alcohol in it? Does it ferment? Is it kept in an air-tight sealed bottle? No, it just ages like wine, y'know. Sure, that sounds plausible, hit me. If it's about molecule binding or something else like that, great, but at least establish that. There just seems to be so much accepted wisdom involved in vaping at the moment it doesn't feel like the great breakthrough I imagined and involves a surprising amount of faith. It may well be harmless/even beneficial perhaps, and this could be just a timing-difference, but more consistent, provable explanations would provide greater comfort for me.

For now it's flavourless and so far so good. If this was all that was available at the beginning I'm fairly sure I would still have stuck with it, maybe with a little more will power required. And for people celebrating the instant benefits of vaping this is the logical step imo. That 15% trouble I still had from vaping over cigarettes (a tight, concentrated pain sometimes in the top of my chest and occasional wheezing) have disappeared instantly. It still greatly improves my day to day life over cigarettes, just isn't as much fun and doesn't seem viable long-term. But reading we2rcool's post above, maybe this is no bad thing. I kind of forgot I'm a nicotine addict and this emotional comedown is pretty standard addicted behavior really. Probably should start to fix that. 'Smoking Cessation Device' it is for me but I don't want to affect anyone else's enjoyment/diminish the undoubted improvements they've experienced.
 

HeadInClouds

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 2, 2013
1,586
2,733
61
I would also like to add that the popcorn lung symptoms start at 2 - 8 weeks and it is your lungs that have one of the symptoms. So far my lungs are fine. :)

CDC says: "Usually these symptoms are gradual in onset and progressive, but severe symptoms can occur suddenly."
Wayne Watson is a Denver man who ate 2 bags of popcorn daily and developed the disease; it took around 10 years to develop. His lawsuit was fairly recent, easy to find online.

Where did you read 2-8 weeks?
 

aikanae1

Vaping Master
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Feb 2, 2013
8,423
26,259
az
But how do we 'know' this? Because our bodies tell us that our chest/bloodflow/nerves etc. feel initially better? Is this enough?

Like, all we know is that butter is better for you than MSG. Great, can I have 10lbs of butter please.

All we know, surely, is that as a nicotine delivery method, vaping is different from smoking.

EDIT: I know that cigarettes have dangerous tar included and up to 4,000 potentially harmful chemicals added. I am told vaping removes these threats. I assume this makes it 'better' all round. But it's just an assumption at this stage, I don't know.

Butter vs MSG? That's not a very accurate analogy. Neither is an addiction. :laugh:

I have used inhalers with various combinations of PG/VG in them for decades along with millions of others. PG is also used in air systems as a purifier since the 50's? Since those two ingredients make up >80% of what we are vaping, I think we can assume it's safe. I like to use flavorings at <5% concentration. Some are as low as 1%-2% TOTAL combined in VG/PG. Nicotine may be addictive but it doesn't appear to be the major cause of illness from smoking. Even the CDC has stated that. In fact nicotine has found usefullness in treating several other medical conditions such as Parkinson's and Cron's disease. It may also have a role as an antidepressent. There are a number of studies with it. Based on that, we know one helluva lot more about what's in vaping liquids than what's in cigarettes. That's still not a free pass nor does it allow us to take the industry for granted. There is just not a one-size fits all answer.

The reality of any agency other than flavoring companies, concerned with public health inhaling flavors is not a rational dream at this point, and probably won't ever be. Regulations are 100% focused on total bans that put ecigs out of business or making them as unattractive as possible. $100 for 30ml of eliquid? That's on the docket in Wa and NJ, with several other states watching to follow if they pass. Look at EU regulations; single use cartridges only. No DIY and no customization. Every puff the same for everyone. Customization, IMO, is one of the advantages that allows smokers to quit right now. Lower cigarette sales severly hurt gov't budgets since that's where 75% of the price goes. That's ignoring the 8 billion dollar Chantrix sales alone. I don't know the total market for NRT, but I think we can safely double that figure. Most of those "approved" products don't produce enough of a success rate that would allow them to be approved for any medical illness, and they have all caused harm, including death, which vaping does not cause. That is proveable.

This is not cake and eat it too. We have an addiction. This is harm reduction. No one should take up vaping that is not trying to reduce harm from their addiction. Quitting is better than vaping. So far independent studies have unanomously concluded vaping is better than smoking. Even ANTZ members have stated the same at one time or another (but tend to forget). No one is adding anything to nicotine that makes it more addictive like they do with cigarettes. That's probably part of why vaping doesn't exactly duplicate the same feeling as smoking which is a good thing.

I find it MUCH easier to go without any nicotine at all, for longer and longer periods now and I haven't reduced my nic levels (24mg). Getting away from tobacco flavors, preferring to vape flavors have helped me break my addiction to cigarettes. I think there's is a vast majority of vapers who are aiming for a life free from smoking AND vaping eventually. So this is a temporary fix for their addiction. There are always going to be hobbyists who just enjoy the pleasure of vaping, but I suspect they are in the minority.

This has gotten way off topic.
 
Last edited:

HeadInClouds

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 2, 2013
1,586
2,733
61
For those looking for flavorings without custard notes, here is another source.

One Stop Flavors - 1 oz - One Stop DIY Shop Store

Their description: "Our flavor line is produced by an award winning flavor manufacturer just for us! ... Our Flavors are do not contain Diacetyl or custard notes."

These are the flavorings on that page:Arnold Palmer, Baked Cinnamon Roll, Blue Raspberry Slush, Caramel Mocha, Chocolate Cream, Margarita, Pink Lemonade, Sweet Southern Tea, Wild Cherrylicious
 
Last edited:

Sdh

ECF Guru
ECF Veteran
Aug 31, 2010
10,509
17,194
U.S.
For those looking for flavorings without custard notes, here is another source.

One Stop Flavors - 1 oz - One Stop DIY Shop Store

Their description: "Our flavor line is produced by an award winning flavor manufacturer just for us! ... Our Flavors are do not contain Diacetyl or custard notes."

These are the flavorings on that page:Arnold Palmer, Baked Cinnamon Roll, Blue Raspberry Slush, Caramel Mocha, Chocolate Cream, Margarita, Pink Lemonade, Sweet Southern Tea, Wild Cherrylicious
It is hard to believe when one looks at the MSDS sheets to find it is all proprietary information. It does not make me take the word of a vendor. Thank you for posting.
 

HeadInClouds

Ultra Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Sep 2, 2013
1,586
2,733
61
It is hard to believe when one looks at the MSDS sheets to find it is all proprietary information. It does not make me take the word of a vendor. Thank you for posting.

I strongly suspect they're using FlavourArt flavorings. They are a FA reseller, and the flavor profiles fit. Just my hunch, though; they also sell other vendors' flavorings.
 

Deeo

Super Member
ECF Veteran
Mar 19, 2013
772
590
Ontario, Canada
CDC says: "Usually these symptoms are gradual in onset and progressive, but severe symptoms can occur suddenly."
Wayne Watson is a Denver man who ate 2 bags of popcorn daily and developed the disease; it took around 10 years to develop. His lawsuit was fairly recent, easy to find online.

Where did you read 2-8 weeks?

The progress of this disease varies widely; in some people it develops gradually, while others may experience somewhat rapid progression. Typically, two to eight weeks after illness or exposure to the toxic fumes, an individual can have shortness of breath, dry cough, fatigue, and wheezing. There is no cure for this disease, and many of those diagnosed with this disease require lung transplants.

http://www.childandfamilyconnections.org/what-is-popcorn-lung-cancer/
 

salemgold

ECF Guru
Supporting Member
ECF Veteran
Verified Member
Jul 5, 2010
28,155
63,784
South Carolina
Did you know there were people who were against the "new" locomotives because they were sure that a human body being propelled at 60mph would be unhealthy and possibly deadly? The original "speed kills" folks, but basically they feared the unknown.

A "ban until there is further testing"? The studies and tests done detecting for known issues isn't enough? Can't test for the unknown for obvious reasons. The only way there will be long term studies is IF there is LONG TERM USE, which would be impossible with any ban.

I've been vaping for over 4 years, started in 2009. I know my health continues to improve even though I continue to age. I know folks who have vaped longer and their health is doing the same thing. It's not scientific proof, but it's what I have to go on. These things have been around for around 10 years. We're getting close to being able to have the population pool needed for a long term use study. Compared to the time period vaping has been around, the custard notes concern is recent. So as long as vaping is not killed off, we will have long term studies and we will know more.

Pushing for more knowledge is a great thing. Distrust of things sold over the counter is a great thing. Stopping other people doings something because of unknowns is not a good thing, nor is living your life in fear.

Very well said. Kudos to you. Seeing some of the fear created for the new vapers ( some not so new) in this thread is very disturbing to me. Especially since nobody even knows for sure if there is anything to fear at all. I am sure that is not the specific intentions of any of the posters but it obviously is happening.

The fact is that nobody knows what affect if any there is from inhaling trace amounts of diacetyl from food flavorings that is diluted even more when mixed with PG/VG/Nic. Nobody knows if there may be something that is more of an issue than possible diacetyl issues from something else contained in food flavorings. I strongly believe that folks that are that afraid of the unknown vape unflavored only. We do know about inhalation of PG/VG/Nic. That is most likely the "safest" thing to vape. JMHO :)
 
Last edited:

hippiebrian

Senior Member
ECF Veteran
Jan 25, 2011
196
133
Long Beach, Ca.
I will agree that it is possible. However i am liking that e cigs have been around for 10 years and no lung issues anywhere that i have heard about. YET. However i am glad that ecigs are 10 years in and i am wondering how many years would it take to say they are safe if no testing was to ever be done? Also to be fair i don't know of anyone that has been solely on an ecig for 10 years, but there are quite a few on this forum that have 4-5 years in.

Edited: Lets just hope that we hear more about the testings that are finally going on and hope they end up the way we all here would like them too. :)

This right here. Vaping has been around for 10 years now with no major issues reported, and I think we need to take at least a little comfort in that. Sure, we don't know about what could happen with 25 or 30 years of vaping yet, but 10 years os a good stretch to have no real issues. Smoking issues show up within 10 years, as do other inhalation hazards (like popcorn lung, for instance, wink wink).

Me, I enjoy the menthol so I just mix my own now with a light menthol and enjoy it as much as anything. Sure, the flavors may show some effects years down the road. If that concerns you, switch to no flavor or menthol. If you worry you are vaping too much, throw some snus or snuff in the mix to help you cut down.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Users who are viewing this thread